NPR

Tangentially relevant but I was re-added to my club's 3rd XV whatsapp recently along with a bunch of us who haven't played for some time in a last ditch (failed) attempt to not be kicked out the league. I took a look at the local leagues and whilst I knew things were bad I had no idea quite how serious the situation is. Big clubs almost all down to two sides, a lot of smaller clubs barely exist, and things only getting worse. I had a chat with one of the committee members who described the community game as 'holed beneath the waterline'. Any decline in players now could be disastrous.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:30 pm Tangentially relevant but I was re-added to my club's 3rd XV whatsapp recently along with a bunch of us who haven't played for some time in a last ditch (failed) attempt to not be kicked out the league. I took a look at the local leagues and whilst I knew things were bad I had no idea quite how serious the situation is. Big clubs almost all down to two sides, a lot of smaller clubs barely exist, and things only getting worse. I had a chat with one of the committee members who described the community game as 'holed beneath the waterline'. Any decline in players now could be disastrous.

Covid did huge damage. Not playing for 2 seasons makes it extremely painful to get back to playing. Not to mention people just being out of the habit.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:30 pm Tangentially relevant but I was re-added to my club's 3rd XV whatsapp recently along with a bunch of us who haven't played for some time in a last ditch (failed) attempt to not be kicked out the league. I took a look at the local leagues and whilst I knew things were bad I had no idea quite how serious the situation is. Big clubs almost all down to two sides, a lot of smaller clubs barely exist, and things only getting worse. I had a chat with one of the committee members who described the community game as 'holed beneath the waterline'. Any decline in players now could be disastrous.

Alas it is not just our georaphic area but similar nationwide. The pandemic has a lot to answer for but playing numbers were already in decline and the RFU had cut grassroots funding year on year well before that and continue to do so.
Less than 65% of fixtures in the Herts/Middx Merit Table are being fulfilled this season. There is an emergency meeting of member clubs at my club next week to discuss this very subject.

I've heard it said on a podcast that the RFU don't actually like rugby anymore. They're far more interested in appealing to people who don't play rugby instead of looking after the interests of those that already do. The RFU are little more than a Twickenham based event management and hotel business now.

SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:41 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:30 pm Tangentially relevant but I was re-added to my club's 3rd XV whatsapp recently along with a bunch of us who haven't played for some time in a last ditch (failed) attempt to not be kicked out the league. I took a look at the local leagues and whilst I knew things were bad I had no idea quite how serious the situation is. Big clubs almost all down to two sides, a lot of smaller clubs barely exist, and things only getting worse. I had a chat with one of the committee members who described the community game as 'holed beneath the waterline'. Any decline in players now could be disastrous.

Alas it is not just our georaphic area but similar nationwide. The pandemic has a lot to answer for but playing numbers were already in decline and the RFU had cut grassroots funding year on year well before that and continue to do so.
Less than 65% of fixtures in the Herts/Middx Merit Table are being fulfilled this season. There is an emergency meeting of member clubs at my club next week to discuss this very subject.

Both of these posts have really saddened me.

PB, are you talking about A&C?

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:54 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:41 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:30 pm Tangentially relevant but I was re-added to my club's 3rd XV whatsapp recently along with a bunch of us who haven't played for some time in a last ditch (failed) attempt to not be kicked out the league. I took a look at the local leagues and whilst I knew things were bad I had no idea quite how serious the situation is. Big clubs almost all down to two sides, a lot of smaller clubs barely exist, and things only getting worse. I had a chat with one of the committee members who described the community game as 'holed beneath the waterline'. Any decline in players now could be disastrous.

Alas it is not just our georaphic area but similar nationwide. The pandemic has a lot to answer for but playing numbers were already in decline and the RFU had cut grassroots funding year on year well before that and continue to do so.
Less than 65% of fixtures in the Herts/Middx Merit Table are being fulfilled this season. There is an emergency meeting of member clubs at my club next week to discuss this very subject.

Both of these posts have really saddened me.

PB, are you talking about A&C?

I am, and I’d say they are in a better position than the other local clubs I know people at. I played for the 4s on a day where we had 4 league sides and a vets team out probably a decade ago, remarkable shift

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:47 pm I've heard it said on a podcast that the RFU don't actually like rugby anymore. They're far more interested in appealing to people who don't play rugby instead of looking after the interests of those that already do. The RFU are little more than a Twickenham based event management and hotel business now.

You are a hypothetical executive at the RFU whose background is in other sports and not the English club game. What is worth more to you - Joe Bloggs turning out 12 times a year for his local 3rd XV, or the same JB and a few of his mates he used to play Colts with going to Twickers/their local prem club 10ish times a year and having 6 pints whilst they’re at it?

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:54 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:41 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:30 pm Tangentially relevant but I was re-added to my club's 3rd XV whatsapp recently along with a bunch of us who haven't played for some time in a last ditch (failed) attempt to not be kicked out the league. I took a look at the local leagues and whilst I knew things were bad I had no idea quite how serious the situation is. Big clubs almost all down to two sides, a lot of smaller clubs barely exist, and things only getting worse. I had a chat with one of the committee members who described the community game as 'holed beneath the waterline'. Any decline in players now could be disastrous.

Alas it is not just our georaphic area but similar nationwide. The pandemic has a lot to answer for but playing numbers were already in decline and the RFU had cut grassroots funding year on year well before that and continue to do so.
Less than 65% of fixtures in the Herts/Middx Merit Table are being fulfilled this season. There is an emergency meeting of member clubs at my club next week to discuss this very subject.

Both of these posts have really saddened me.

PB, are you talking about A&C?

Perhaps the new tackling rules will encourage a wider range of people to take up the sport - and, possibly, lessen parents concerns about their youngsters playing rugby. If it also makes the sport more 'free flowing' it might be a more attractive sport to partcipants and spectators.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:08 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:54 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:41 pm
Alas it is not just our georaphic area but similar nationwide. The pandemic has a lot to answer for but playing numbers were already in decline and the RFU had cut grassroots funding year on year well before that and continue to do so.
Less than 65% of fixtures in the Herts/Middx Merit Table are being fulfilled this season. There is an emergency meeting of member clubs at my club next week to discuss this very subject.

Both of these posts have really saddened me.

PB, are you talking about A&C?

Perhaps the new tackling rules will encourage a wider range of people to take up the sport - and, possibly, lessen parents concerns about their youngsters playing rugby. If it also makes the sport more 'free flowing' it might be a more attractive sport to partcipants and spectators.

I feel like I read this in the rugby column of one of the papers - that a headmaster (and ex decent player) of a proper public school told the RFU he was worried without a change in the nature of collisions he’d be having to ask parents to give a waiver to let their kids play rugby within five years. And that is to all intents and purposes the end of the sport, at least as we know it.

For my side I’m playing in a semi serious evening touch league atm and it is the most fun I’ve ever had playing rugby. No idea if I’m in a minority of one but I’d be very interested in playing a properly competitive standard of it, whilst I have no interest in playing contact rugby again possibly excepting a one off special event game for a mate

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:08 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:47 pm I've heard it said on a podcast that the RFU don't actually like rugby anymore. They're far more interested in appealing to people who don't play rugby instead of looking after the interests of those that already do. The RFU are little more than a Twickenham based event management and hotel business now.

You are a hypothetical executive at the RFU whose background is in other sports and not the English club game. What is worth more to you - Joe Bloggs turning out 12 times a year for his local 3rd XV, or the same JB and a few of his mates he used to play Colts with going to Twickers/their local prem club 10ish times a year and having 6 pints whilst they’re at it?

To be honest, I really don't understand how it works anymore. There seems to be so many lobby groups and ex-player 'personalities' (yes you Monye) shouting very loudly that rugby is bad for you, it has unsavoury elements and it's out of date or suchlike. Whereas, for most of us who played junior rugby then senior rugby, it has provided us with memories and friendships that are enduring, deep and immensely enjoyable. I'm certain that young men are simply not allowed to enjoy rugby the way we enjoyed it.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:04 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:54 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:41 pm
Alas it is not just our georaphic area but similar nationwide. The pandemic has a lot to answer for but playing numbers were already in decline and the RFU had cut grassroots funding year on year well before that and continue to do so.
Less than 65% of fixtures in the Herts/Middx Merit Table are being fulfilled this season. There is an emergency meeting of member clubs at my club next week to discuss this very subject.

Both of these posts have really saddened me.

PB, are you talking about A&C?

I am, and I’d say they are in a better position than the other local clubs I know people at. I played for the 4s on a day where we had 4 league sides and a vets team out probably a decade ago, remarkable shift

Was going to say exactly the same about that same period.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:14 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:08 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:54 pm

Both of these posts have really saddened me.

PB, are you talking about A&C?

Perhaps the new tackling rules will encourage a wider range of people to take up the sport - and, possibly, lessen parents concerns about their youngsters playing rugby. If it also makes the sport more 'free flowing' it might be a more attractive sport to partcipants and spectators.

I feel like I read this in the rugby column of one of the papers - that a headmaster (and ex decent player) of a proper public school told the RFU he was worried without a change in the nature of collisions he’d be having to ask parents to give a waiver to let their kids play rugby within five years. And that is to all intents and purposes the end of the sport, at least as we know it.

For my side I’m playing in a semi serious evening touch league atm and it is the most fun I’ve ever had playing rugby. No idea if I’m in a minority of one but I’d be very interested in playing a properly competitive standard of it, whilst I have no interest in playing contact rugby again possibly excepting a one off special event game for a mate

I also played in a semi serious touch league in London, ran a team in fact, and also absolutely loved it. This was after I;d decided my playing days were over but wanted to stay in the rugby circles. I have never understood why it is not promoted more in the Uk.

The wider point of this is that rugby has to change to get people back to clubs and, as I always bang on about, needs to split from pro rugby and develop it's own laws. I don't want rugby clubs to change into touch clubs, but there needs to be a serious discussion on what an amateur game looks like, how much contact do we need to keep the spirit of rugby, do lower teams within a club just play touch. I don't know, but it needs to change fast or we will lose an absolutely fantastic part of many peoples lives

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:49 pm By christ there's some twitter over reactions.... end of grassroots rugby apparently. People recalling the awfully setup trial in the championship, ignoring the fact that France have been doing this for years, and provide a much larger dataset.

No need in France. At those levels, any angst is simply dealt with by a mass brawl rather than the tedium of waiting for a cheap, head shot

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:08 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:54 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:41 pm
Alas it is not just our georaphic area but similar nationwide. The pandemic has a lot to answer for but playing numbers were already in decline and the RFU had cut grassroots funding year on year well before that and continue to do so.
Less than 65% of fixtures in the Herts/Middx Merit Table are being fulfilled this season. There is an emergency meeting of member clubs at my club next week to discuss this very subject.

Both of these posts have really saddened me.

PB, are you talking about A&C?

Perhaps the new tackling rules will encourage a wider range of people to take up the sport - and, possibly, lessen parents concerns about their youngsters playing rugby. If it also makes the sport more 'free flowing' it might be a more attractive sport to partcipants and spectators.

Just read something by Nick Easter, now coaching Chinnor saying the opposite. Reckons it will be tough for the big guys and might force them out the game

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:07 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:08 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:54 pm

Both of these posts have really saddened me.

PB, are you talking about A&C?

Perhaps the new tackling rules will encourage a wider range of people to take up the sport - and, possibly, lessen parents concerns about their youngsters playing rugby. If it also makes the sport more 'free flowing' it might be a more attractive sport to partcipants and spectators.

Just read something by Nick Easter, now coaching Chinnor saying the opposite. Reckons it will be tough for the big guys and might force them out the game

It never did before when tackling around the waist and legs was the norm.

We'll still need scrums and line outs

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:24 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:07 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:08 pm

Perhaps the new tackling rules will encourage a wider range of people to take up the sport - and, possibly, lessen parents concerns about their youngsters playing rugby. If it also makes the sport more 'free flowing' it might be a more attractive sport to partcipants and spectators.

Just read something by Nick Easter, now coaching Chinnor saying the opposite. Reckons it will be tough for the big guys and might force them out the game

It never did before when tackling around the waist and legs was the norm.

We'll still need scrums and line outs

And. less big guys, more variety of sizes, is exactly what will open the game up for more people.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:10 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:24 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:07 pm

Just read something by Nick Easter, now coaching Chinnor saying the opposite. Reckons it will be tough for the big guys and might force them out the game

It never did before when tackling around the waist and legs was the norm.

We'll still need scrums and line outs

And. less big guys, more variety of sizes, is exactly what will open the game up for more people.

Yeah, or at least the big guys are less big, because there isn't this fixation on smashing the opposition; so the collisions are racheted down.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:17 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:10 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:24 pm


It never did before when tackling around the waist and legs was the norm.

We'll still need scrums and line outs

And. less big guys, more variety of sizes, is exactly what will open the game up for more people.

Yeah, or at least the big guys are less big, because there isn't this fixation on smashing the opposition; so the collisions are racheted down.

More emphasis on skill - which would be a great move in the right direction.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:25 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:17 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:10 pm

And. less big guys, more variety of sizes, is exactly what will open the game up for more people.

Yeah, or at least the big guys are less big, because there isn't this fixation on smashing the opposition; so the collisions are racheted down.

More emphasis on skill - which would be a great move in the right direction.

Yep; get them out of the Gym, but instead spend the time working on their fundamental skills, & footwork.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:10 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:24 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:07 pm

Just read something by Nick Easter, now coaching Chinnor saying the opposite. Reckons it will be tough for the big guys and might force them out the game

It never did before when tackling around the waist and legs was the norm.

We'll still need scrums and line outs

And. less big guys, more variety of sizes, is exactly what will open the game up for more people.

I agree, although I think he was referring to height rather than muscle.

To Tichtheids post, exactly! I was thinking back to my playing days and I can honestly only remember one really big stand up hit to the chest by one of our players, it was always low tackles and that was what we were taught. It’s amazing how the game has drifted into this situation

I'd be happier if it was below chest height and not waist, but it will be interesting to see what difference it makes.

ASMO wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:11 am I'd be happier if it was below chest height and not waist, but it will be interesting to see what difference it makes.

I suspect waist is chosen so that anything that drifts a little high can either be missed by the ref, or it's never going to be more than a penalty and it's still safe in terms of health.

Go past what you want so that it inevitably drifts up to a still safe location

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:32 am

ASMO wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:11 am I'd be happier if it was below chest height and not waist, but it will be interesting to see what difference it makes.

I suspect waist is chosen so that anything that drifts a little high can either be missed by the ref, or it's never going to be more than a penalty and it's still safe in terms of health.

Go past what you want so that it inevitably drifts up to a still safe location

Yeah, that sounds about right, unless we mandate lines on shirts it's going to be very difficult to police a tackle height at some point on the chest.
You'll get tackles that come in on the abdomen and lower ribs, but it won't be a big deal, you might even get a bit of a ticking off for it.

Exactly, might just be a few warnings and not even a pen. If it feels safe but a technical foul, refs will go easy on it.

ASMO wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:11 am I'd be happier if it was below chest height and not waist, but it will be interesting to see what difference it makes.

As per Raggs, I suspect it's because it's easier to police. We'll immediately see players doing the reverse of boxing i.e. shorts getting lower

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:07 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:08 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:54 pm

Both of these posts have really saddened me.

PB, are you talking about A&C?

Perhaps the new tackling rules will encourage a wider range of people to take up the sport - and, possibly, lessen parents concerns about their youngsters playing rugby. If it also makes the sport more 'free flowing' it might be a more attractive sport to partcipants and spectators.

Just read something by Nick Easter, now coaching Chinnor saying the opposite. Reckons it will be tough for the big guys and might force them out the game

Jim Hamilton saying he wouldn't be able to survive under these laws really made me think.

Jim "shit hands, dreadful discipline, bit of a thug, but huge and therefore valuable to the pro game" Hamilton. Oh no.

If we could add on a law that also banned his podcast we'd improve the sport immeasurably

I'd struggle with it, but mostly because I'm a natural coward and shit at tackling. I'd also be no great loss to the game.

Tackling low isn't going to kill off the amateur game. What's killing it off is a combination of factors including people not being willing to give up an entire weekend to rugby in the way they used to, delusions of grandeur leading to teams being over-competitive and driving the casual players out of the game (people don't want to give up two nights a week training, or to be made to feel like disloyal twats for not doing so), and the associated trend of players being gym-monkeys who are way too big for their frames and can do serious damage to anybody who isn't an eighteen stone pituitary retard that bench-presses a Ford Cortina twenty times a day.

Will no one please think of Faz! He’s only just understood below the chin. How’s he going to get this one?

PCPhil wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:02 am Will no one please think of Faz! He’s only just understood below the chin. How’s he going to get this one?

He'll be fine..........................it's only being implemented at level 3 and below

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:47 am I'd struggle with it, but mostly because I'm a natural coward and shit at tackling. I'd also be no great loss to the game.

Tackling low isn't going to kill off the amateur game. What's killing it off is a combination of factors including people not being willing to give up an entire weekend to rugby in the way they used to, delusions of grandeur leading to teams being over-competitive and driving the casual players out of the game (people don't want to give up two nights a week training, or to be made to feel like disloyal twats for not doing so), and the associated trend of players being gym-monkeys who are way too big for their frames and can do serious damage to anybody who isn't an eighteen stone pituitary retard that bench-presses a Ford Cortina twenty times a day.

Declining numbers in club sport is not in any way unique to rugby, but rugby is in worse shape than football, hockey and cricket, and significantly so.
Part of that is the contact element, and I’d say part is the aforementioned eighteen stone pituitary retards that form an increasing percentage of the sport and make playing and socialising at rugby clubs an unattractive prospect (I am more than happy to down a pint, play a drinking game etc, I am not happy to be standing by a bar as a steroid using bloke shoulder charges people from behind for ‘banter’).
I don’t think we can escape from the fact that club rugby is to all intents and purposes an exclusively white activity as well, in a country that is not.


I think the RFU is right, on balance, about this. However I do feel a bit for particularly tight five players who have probably seen up to half their games cancelled this year, of those played probably at least a couple going uncontested etc who feel the sport is trying to force them out. I also feel for hard pressed captains for whom anything that gives people an opportunity to say they’re unavailable is disastrous. I don’t think there’s an alternative and I don’t think a lot of people calling for waivers realise their parents would never have taken them to a rugby club in the first place if waivers were needed.

I haven’t got a waist anymore, so I’m f****ed.

I’m seeing some negative comments based on the championship trial. I’’m assuming that went badly but anybody got more details, thoughts?

Sinkers wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:07 am I haven’t got a waist anymore, so I’m f****ed.

I’m seeing some negative comments based on the championship trial. I’’m assuming that went badly but anybody got more details, thoughts?

Raggs has the lowdown but it was a deeply shit trial. Badly run, very badly timed, poorly officiated, so produced useless data as a result. Higher levels of head injuries IIRC, but refs had essentially given up after a couple of weeks.

Sinkers wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:07 am I haven’t got a waist anymore, so I’m f****ed.

I’m seeing some negative comments based on the championship trial. I’’m assuming that went badly but anybody got more details, thoughts?

It was the championship cup. So players were training for the most part to play in the championship (which really counts for something), then being expected to switch it all up in a week, to play a less important cup game, and then be expected to switch back again. Confusion causes injuries, being unsure etc. Refs gave up on it, and then they gave up on it entirely I believe. Nothing like the data they now have from France to work with.

Not watched this myself yet, but apparently breaks it down nicely:

Thanks for that - very interesting

Typically there does seem to be some cherry-picking of stats from both the Yays and Nays on this so that was helpful

Generally I think that the game I learned and played when younger and now coach kids to play is becoming more and more distant from the senior game where it’s increasingly about bigger and bigger blokes running into each other.
So I’m supportive.

This is a good indepth read on the topic: https://www.patreon.com/posts/lowering-legal-77489775

Unlike our cowardly Sale supporting weed, I was good at tackling. I was taught the old "wrap the legs and their arse can cushion your head" technique. If I wanted to tackle hard, aim for the stomach and tackle like your shoulder is aiming at someone behind them. Stood me well enough without having to go high in a "Big Hit" to dominate the collisions.

If attempting to wrap the arms or hit someone so hard they can offload due to the impact but you continually risk going high accidentally is the loss to the game, so be it.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:32 pm Unlike our cowardly Sale supporting weed, I was good at tackling. I was taught the old "wrap the legs and their arse can cushion your head" technique. If I wanted to tackle hard, aim for the stomach and tackle like your shoulder is aiming at someone behind them. Stood me well enough without having to go high in a "Big Hit" to dominate the collisions.

If attempting to wrap the arms or hit someone so hard they can offload due to the impact but you continually risk going high accidentally is the loss to the game, so be it.

Good point actually, that side on tackle wrapping the arms was safe and a good way to stop the momentum of a passage of play, it would be shame to see that go

As for offloads, my level is a lot lower than most but personally I can only offload when tackled high. Get an arm free and keep on my feet. When tackled low I'll down like a sack of shit with no time to offload.

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:12 pm As for offloads, my level is a lot lower than most but personally I can only offload when tackled high. Get an arm free and keep on my feet. When tackled low I'll down like a sack of shit with no time to offload.

Yes, I think the idea that club players will be throwing Sonny Bill shapes all over the place is a little far fetched.

Papers reporting serious backlash on this
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023 ... le-rules
https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://w ... k-knee/
https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https:// ... es-need/