Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:42 pm
Shots. Fired.
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The Official English Rugby Thread
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Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:43 pm
No he isn't.
Ben Youngs is a scrumhalf.
And there are at least 4 EQP scrumhalves available who are better than Youngs. Probably 6.
Owen Farrell is a flyhalf. The club he plays flyhalf for are top of the league in case you've missed it.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:53 pm
5-times champion Ben Youngs 
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:58 pm
Pretty damning stuff on the end of the Jones era:
And so now it is the national side that are beginning to reap the benefits after he succeeded Jones following his sacking in December. Perhaps the most immediate impact he has made, according to the players, has been his eagerness to listen.
Over the Christmas period Borthwick spoke to every player and the feedback was stark. Some would give different answers to questions about game plans. It was clear that a sense of fear had long replaced any sense of joy at being in the squad.
Messages were mixed and without clarity it was proving difficult for the players to fully commit on the pitch. The drop in the line speed of the defence during the autumn was noticeable, England’s scrum was a mess, gaining notoriety as the most penalised set-piece in the world while the maul, once an area of dominance, was barely effective. Overall the players seem to lack energy and their work-rate suffered. There was little attempt either to engage with referees.
There has been little time to effect significant change, but the one message that has resonated with the squad is that he does not want them to share the same experience he did an England player. He wants them to learn from his mistakes or those around him.
The first week in camp was all about identifying a basic plan on how they want to play. This week has been about adapting to Scotland. The structure of the day has been turned on its head. The players had spoken about the long, nervous wait between an 8.20am morning team meeting and the training session at 5pm during the autumn series, which had sapped their energy.
Those concerns have already been addressed. The sessions are hard but shorter so their energy is spent on the field, in the gym or in recovery. Mistakes, when they happen, are tolerated as long as the players react. Meetings are held between 9am to 10am to allow players to warm-up properly, undergo physio work or have ice baths, with the latest on-field training held around 3pm.
With Richard Cockerill now in charge of the scrum, and Borthwick demanding change, it is one of the areas that has received most attention so far. The game plan has been simplified.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:16 pm
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:20 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:58 pm Pretty damning stuff on the end of the Jones era:
And so now it is the national side that are beginning to reap the benefits after he succeeded Jones following his sacking in December. Perhaps the most immediate impact he has made, according to the players, has been his eagerness to listen.
Over the Christmas period Borthwick spoke to every player and the feedback was stark. Some would give different answers to questions about game plans. It was clear that a sense of fear had long replaced any sense of joy at being in the squad.
Messages were mixed and without clarity it was proving difficult for the players to fully commit on the pitch. The drop in the line speed of the defence during the autumn was noticeable, England’s scrum was a mess, gaining notoriety as the most penalised set-piece in the world while the maul, once an area of dominance, was barely effective. Overall the players seem to lack energy and their work-rate suffered. There was little attempt either to engage with referees.
There has been little time to effect significant change, but the one message that has resonated with the squad is that he does not want them to share the same experience he did an England player. He wants them to learn from his mistakes or those around him.
The first week in camp was all about identifying a basic plan on how they want to play. This week has been about adapting to Scotland. The structure of the day has been turned on its head. The players had spoken about the long, nervous wait between an 8.20am morning team meeting and the training session at 5pm during the autumn series, which had sapped their energy.
Those concerns have already been addressed. The sessions are hard but shorter so their energy is spent on the field, in the gym or in recovery. Mistakes, when they happen, are tolerated as long as the players react. Meetings are held between 9am to 10am to allow players to warm-up properly, undergo physio work or have ice baths, with the latest on-field training held around 3pm.
With Richard Cockerill now in charge of the scrum, and Borthwick demanding change, it is one of the areas that has received most attention so far. The game plan has been simplified.
The most annoying thing for me is that this was all so obvious. Various people, including myself, were saying something was clearly wrong even before the 2019 RWC. Then you listened to the contrary and inconsistent messages from Jones in various articles and pressers and you just knew he didn't have a clue what he was doing anymore. He just didn't give a damn about England, the English or their rugby team. He was stealing a living - a very good living with various side-hustles on the side. And he was doing this right in front of us - I bet he couldn't believe how stupid his employers were. Jones should be hounded out of RU, he's a cancer in the game.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:38 pm
Correct. He's only ever played 9 I believe (maybe 10 once or twice). Faz Jr, famously, has played 10, 12, and 13 for Sarries over the years. But the important thing to note is that Ben Youngs won titles with Tigers, ergo he is brilliant.
In all seriousness Farrell has had many successful matches as a 12 for club and country and it's entirely doable. He's a good smart player who's quite physical - he can run lines. Of course, if he is the only option at 12, who are you advocating for at 12 if you pick him at 10?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:43 pm
In fairness, you were one of the 1st to call him out as a bit of a fraud.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:20 pmPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:58 pm Pretty damning stuff on the end of the Jones era:
And so now it is the national side that are beginning to reap the benefits after he succeeded Jones following his sacking in December. Perhaps the most immediate impact he has made, according to the players, has been his eagerness to listen.
Over the Christmas period Borthwick spoke to every player and the feedback was stark. Some would give different answers to questions about game plans. It was clear that a sense of fear had long replaced any sense of joy at being in the squad.
Messages were mixed and without clarity it was proving difficult for the players to fully commit on the pitch. The drop in the line speed of the defence during the autumn was noticeable, England’s scrum was a mess, gaining notoriety as the most penalised set-piece in the world while the maul, once an area of dominance, was barely effective. Overall the players seem to lack energy and their work-rate suffered. There was little attempt either to engage with referees.
There has been little time to effect significant change, but the one message that has resonated with the squad is that he does not want them to share the same experience he did an England player. He wants them to learn from his mistakes or those around him.
The first week in camp was all about identifying a basic plan on how they want to play. This week has been about adapting to Scotland. The structure of the day has been turned on its head. The players had spoken about the long, nervous wait between an 8.20am morning team meeting and the training session at 5pm during the autumn series, which had sapped their energy.
Those concerns have already been addressed. The sessions are hard but shorter so their energy is spent on the field, in the gym or in recovery. Mistakes, when they happen, are tolerated as long as the players react. Meetings are held between 9am to 10am to allow players to warm-up properly, undergo physio work or have ice baths, with the latest on-field training held around 3pm.
With Richard Cockerill now in charge of the scrum, and Borthwick demanding change, it is one of the areas that has received most attention so far. The game plan has been simplified.
The most annoying thing for me is that this was all so obvious. Various people, including myself, were saying something was clearly wrong even before the 2019 RWC. Then you listened to the contrary and inconsistent messages from Jones in various articles and pressers and you just knew he didn't have a clue what he was doing anymore. He just didn't give a damn about England, the English or their rugby team. He was stealing a living - a very good living with various side-hustles on the side. And he was doing this right in front of us - I bet he couldn't believe how stupid his employers were. Jones should be hounded out of RU, he's a cancer in the game.
And, even with the teams he selected, they really should have been playing much better rugby - there was obviously something very amiss for a long while.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:44 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:38 pmCorrect. He's only ever played 9 I believe (maybe 10 once or twice). Faz Jr, famously, has played 10, 12, and 13 for Sarries over the years. But the important thing to note is that Ben Youngs won titles with Tigers, ergo he is brilliant.
In all seriousness Farrell has had many successful matches as a 12 for club and country and it's entirely doable. He's a good smart player who's quite physical - he can run lines. Of course, if he is the only option at 12, who are you advocating for at 12 if you pick him at 10?
It would have been the only option there is before he got injured in training - Kelly. I think it is fairly well understood that Farrell was going to start at 10.
The irony is that Saracens don't play with a huge 12 or 13 outside 10. In fact, they don't have any huge backs at all.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:52 pm
No, but all the centres are powerful nonetheless - Lozowski, Daly, Tompkins, Taylor, etc - and it's slightly easier when you have a pack like theirs.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:44 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:38 pmCorrect. He's only ever played 9 I believe (maybe 10 once or twice). Faz Jr, famously, has played 10, 12, and 13 for Sarries over the years. But the important thing to note is that Ben Youngs won titles with Tigers, ergo he is brilliant.
In all seriousness Farrell has had many successful matches as a 12 for club and country and it's entirely doable. He's a good smart player who's quite physical - he can run lines. Of course, if he is the only option at 12, who are you advocating for at 12 if you pick him at 10?
It would have been the only option there is before he got injured in training - Kelly. I think it is fairly well understood that Farrell was going to start at 10.
The irony is that Saracens don't play with a huge 12 or 13 outside 10. In fact, they don't have any huge backs at all.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:52 pmNo, but all the centres are powerful nonetheless - Lozowski, Daly, Tompkins, Taylor, etc - and it's slightly easier when you have a pack like theirs.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:44 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:38 pm
Correct. He's only ever played 9 I believe (maybe 10 once or twice). Faz Jr, famously, has played 10, 12, and 13 for Sarries over the years. But the important thing to note is that Ben Youngs won titles with Tigers, ergo he is brilliant.
In all seriousness Farrell has had many successful matches as a 12 for club and country and it's entirely doable. He's a good smart player who's quite physical - he can run lines. Of course, if he is the only option at 12, who are you advocating for at 12 if you pick him at 10?
It would have been the only option there is before he got injured in training - Kelly. I think it is fairly well understood that Farrell was going to start at 10.
The irony is that Saracens don't play with a huge 12 or 13 outside 10. In fact, they don't have any huge backs at all.
The 2023 Saracens pack? Players like Alec Clarey, Christian Judge, Jackson Wray, Robin Hislop, Ethan Lewis, Callum Hunter-Hill, Andy Christie, Pifeleti, Mawi???!!! There are some very good Saracens academy players in there plus top MLR player Theo McFarland but don't oversell it. They aren't a stella group of international superstars.
And as for the backs being powerful - yes they probably are, but no more powerful than any other 90ish Kgs Premiership back with access to good nutrition, a gym and plenty of time is.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pm
Think it's very harsh to call him a fraud given what he has accomplished. More a man with a limited shelf life and, in my view, a mind melted by a second World Cup final failure, this one unexpected.Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:43 pmIn fairness, you were one of the 1st to call him out as a bit of a fraud.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:20 pm
The most annoying thing for me is that this was all so obvious. Various people, including myself, were saying something was clearly wrong even before the 2019 RWC. Then you listened to the contrary and inconsistent messages from Jones in various articles and pressers and you just knew he didn't have a clue what he was doing anymore. He just didn't give a damn about England, the English or their rugby team. He was stealing a living - a very good living with various side-hustles on the side. And he was doing this right in front of us - I bet he couldn't believe how stupid his employers were. Jones should be hounded out of RU, he's a cancer in the game.
And, even with the teams he selected, they really should have been playing much better rugby - there was obviously something very amiss for a long while.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:05 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pmThink it's very harsh to call him a fraud given what he has accomplished. More a man with a limited shelf life and, in my view, a mind melted by a second World Cup final failure, this one unexpected.Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:43 pmIn fairness, you were one of the 1st to call him out as a bit of a fraud.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:20 pm
The most annoying thing for me is that this was all so obvious. Various people, including myself, were saying something was clearly wrong even before the 2019 RWC. Then you listened to the contrary and inconsistent messages from Jones in various articles and pressers and you just knew he didn't have a clue what he was doing anymore. He just didn't give a damn about England, the English or their rugby team. He was stealing a living - a very good living with various side-hustles on the side. And he was doing this right in front of us - I bet he couldn't believe how stupid his employers were. Jones should be hounded out of RU, he's a cancer in the game.
And, even with the teams he selected, they really should have been playing much better rugby - there was obviously something very amiss for a long while.
Come on, it was obvious - literally obvious - that Jones had given up on England years ago. I think he was hoping he'd be sacked and paid off long before he was. He was moonlighting, talking to the ARU, slagging of the English public school system, literally saying he didn't care about results and on and on. It was so obvious. Red flags went up every time England played.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:06 pm
I referenced what he'd accomplished, which ends with the 6N win of 2020. No disagreement about his subsequent work.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:05 pmPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pmThink it's very harsh to call him a fraud given what he has accomplished. More a man with a limited shelf life and, in my view, a mind melted by a second World Cup final failure, this one unexpected.
Come on, it was obvious - literally obvious - that Jones had given up on England years ago. I think he was hoping he'd be sacked and paid off long before he was. He was moonlighting, talking to the ARU, slagging of the English public school system, literally saying he didn't care about results and on and on. It was so obvious. Red flags went up every time England played.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:07 pm
Unexpected?Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pmThink it's very harsh to call him a fraud given what he has accomplished. More a man with a limited shelf life and, in my view, a mind melted by a second World Cup final failure, this one unexpected.Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:43 pmIn fairness, you were one of the 1st to call him out as a bit of a fraud.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:20 pm
The most annoying thing for me is that this was all so obvious. Various people, including myself, were saying something was clearly wrong even before the 2019 RWC. Then you listened to the contrary and inconsistent messages from Jones in various articles and pressers and you just knew he didn't have a clue what he was doing anymore. He just didn't give a damn about England, the English or their rugby team. He was stealing a living - a very good living with various side-hustles on the side. And he was doing this right in front of us - I bet he couldn't believe how stupid his employers were. Jones should be hounded out of RU, he's a cancer in the game.
And, even with the teams he selected, they really should have been playing much better rugby - there was obviously something very amiss for a long while.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:09 pm
We were 10 point plus favourites with the bookies going into the '19 final.Monk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:07 pmUnexpected?Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pmThink it's very harsh to call him a fraud given what he has accomplished. More a man with a limited shelf life and, in my view, a mind melted by a second World Cup final failure, this one unexpected.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:13 pm
Eddie must have expected exactly what the Boks would bring and did bringPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:09 pmWe were 10 point plus favourites with the bookies going into the '19 final.Monk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:07 pmUnexpected?Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pm
Think it's very harsh to call him a fraud given what he has accomplished. More a man with a limited shelf life and, in my view, a mind melted by a second World Cup final failure, this one unexpected.
He must have known his pack was going to suffer
He would have been a fool not to
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:15 pm
Which is irrelevant to the point that we were heavy favourites going in and I think *most* of the rugby world expected us to win, particularly based on the week before.Monk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:13 pmEddie must have expected exactly what the Boks would bring and did bringPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:09 pmWe were 10 point plus favourites with the bookies going into the '19 final.
He must have known his pack was going to suffer
He would have been a fool not to
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:17 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:15 pmWhich is irrelevant to the point that we were heavy favourites going in and I think *most* of the rugby world expected us to win, particularly based on the week before.Monk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:13 pmEddie must have expected exactly what the Boks would bring and did bringPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:09 pm
We were 10 point plus favourites with the bookies going into the '19 final.
He must have known his pack was going to suffer
He would have been a fool not to
Bookies aren't sentimental - the odds were likely more a reflection of the volume of money going on England than any real examination of the merits of the two teams.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:23 pm
Why pretend those guys are the Saracens pack? Most of them are reserves or occasional starters at best - some of them have barely started a game this season. Even the capped internationals like Mawi, Pifeleti, and Christie are bench fodder.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pmThe 2023 Saracens pack? Players like Alec Clarey, Christian Judge, Jackson Wray, Robin Hislop, Ethan Lewis, Callum Hunter-Hill, Andy Christie, Pifeleti, Mawi???!!! There are some very good Saracens academy players in there plus top MLR player Theo McFarland but don't oversell it. They aren't a stella group of international superstars.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:52 pmNo, but all the centres are powerful nonetheless - Lozowski, Daly, Tompkins, Taylor, etc - and it's slightly easier when you have a pack like theirs.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:44 pm
It would have been the only option there is before he got injured in training - Kelly. I think it is fairly well understood that Farrell was going to start at 10.
The irony is that Saracens don't play with a huge 12 or 13 outside 10. In fact, they don't have any huge backs at all.
Last time I checked, you still had Mako Vunipola (66 caps + 6 Lions caps) , Jamie George (73 caps + 4 Lions), Maro Itoje (63 caps + 6 Lions), Billy Vunipola (66 caps) in that pack starting most games, along with guys like Hugh Tizard, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl, Marco Riccioni, Theo McFarland. That is a huge amount of power and carrying ability.
That the scraping-of-the-barrel squad-fodder you list includes several internationals kinda makes the point.
They all punch above their weight and most are pretty big guys. Daly is almost 10kg heavier than Marchant, for example. Lozowski is taller and much heavier than someone like Rory Hutchinson. Duncan Taylor dwarfs most centres. Tompkins is short in comparison but still around 95kg. As is Farrell.And as for the backs being powerful - yes they probably are, but no more powerful than any other 90ish Kgs Premiership back with access to good nutrition, a gym and plenty of time is.
None of them are the size of Tuilagi or Esterhuizen or whatever, but they're top end for the "regular" centres.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:29 pm
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:17 pmPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:15 pmWhich is irrelevant to the point that we were heavy favourites going in and I think *most* of the rugby world expected us to win, particularly based on the week before.
Bookies aren't sentimental - the odds were likely more a reflection of the volume of money going on England than any real examination of the merits of the two teams.
Yep - there was a whiff of euphoria about which should have had alarm bells ringing for Jones
Methinks the loss was frustrating for him as he realised that he was not capable of assembling an all-court side
He ended up with the silly experiments with solid locks in the loose forwards which imo was his biggest mistake
Ultimately his downfall was a product of his poisonous character. You never saw an England player smiling on the field.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:30 pm
*stares wistfully into the middle distance*Duncan Taylor dwarfs most centres.
Ah but for the injury dogs.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:35 pm
This better not be a Lawes reference, he's been a six for club and country for a very long timeMonk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:29 pmKawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:17 pmPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:15 pm
Which is irrelevant to the point that we were heavy favourites going in and I think *most* of the rugby world expected us to win, particularly based on the week before.
Bookies aren't sentimental - the odds were likely more a reflection of the volume of money going on England than any real examination of the merits of the two teams.
Yep - there was a whiff of euphoria about which should have had alarm bells ringing for Jones
Methinks the loss was frustrating for him as he realised that he was not capable of assembling an all-court side
He ended up with the silly experiments with solid locks in the loose forwards which imo was his biggest mistake
Ultimately his downfall was a product of his poisonous character. You never saw an England player smiling on the field.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:38 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:23 pmWhy pretend those guys are the Saracens pack? Most of them are reserves or occasional starters at best - some of them have barely started a game this season. Even the capped internationals like Mawi, Pifeleti, and Christie are bench fodder.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pmThe 2023 Saracens pack? Players like Alec Clarey, Christian Judge, Jackson Wray, Robin Hislop, Ethan Lewis, Callum Hunter-Hill, Andy Christie, Pifeleti, Mawi???!!! There are some very good Saracens academy players in there plus top MLR player Theo McFarland but don't oversell it. They aren't a stella group of international superstars.
Last time I checked, you still had Mako Vunipola (66 caps + 6 Lions caps) , Jamie George (73 caps + 4 Lions), Maro Itoje (63 caps + 6 Lions), Billy Vunipola (66 caps) in that pack starting most games, along with guys like Hugh Tizard, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl, Marco Riccioni, Theo McFarland. That is a huge amount of power and carrying ability.
That the scraping-of-the-barrel squad-fodder you list includes several internationals kinda makes the point.
They all punch above their weight and most are pretty big guys. Daly is almost 10kg heavier than Marchant, for example. Lozowski is taller and much heavier than someone like Rory Hutchinson. Duncan Taylor dwarfs most centres. Tompkins is short in comparison but still around 95kg. As is Farrell.And as for the backs being powerful - yes they probably are, but no more powerful than any other 90ish Kgs Premiership back with access to good nutrition, a gym and plenty of time is.
None of them are the size of Tuilagi or Esterhuizen or whatever, but they're top end for the "regular" centres.
Stop reaching FFS.
The Saracens squad is no more exceptional that any other Premiership squad other than it has more Saracens academy players in it than I think any other squad. No gimmicks, no cheating. And they are way out in front.
Your whataboutery regards the Saracens backs is almost legendary forum gibberish. You make Elliot Daly sound like Jonah Lomu!
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:40 pm
It's an excuse to jump in and remind us we lost the World Cup Final.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:35 pmThis better not be a Lawes reference, he's been a six for club and country for a very long timeMonk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:29 pm
Yep - there was a whiff of euphoria about which should have had alarm bells ringing for Jones
Methinks the loss was frustrating for him as he realised that he was not capable of assembling an all-court side
He ended up with the silly experiments with solid locks in the loose forwards which imo was his biggest mistake
Ultimately his downfall was a product of his poisonous character. You never saw an England player smiling on the field.
The semi vs NZ was about as good an example of all court rugby as you could ask to see. Seems both yesterday and a lifetime ago.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:47 pm
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:38 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:23 pmWhy pretend those guys are the Saracens pack? Most of them are reserves or occasional starters at best - some of them have barely started a game this season. Even the capped internationals like Mawi, Pifeleti, and Christie are bench fodder.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pm
The 2023 Saracens pack? Players like Alec Clarey, Christian Judge, Jackson Wray, Robin Hislop, Ethan Lewis, Callum Hunter-Hill, Andy Christie, Pifeleti, Mawi???!!! There are some very good Saracens academy players in there plus top MLR player Theo McFarland but don't oversell it. They aren't a stella group of international superstars.
Last time I checked, you still had Mako Vunipola (66 caps + 6 Lions caps) , Jamie George (73 caps + 4 Lions), Maro Itoje (63 caps + 6 Lions), Billy Vunipola (66 caps) in that pack starting most games, along with guys like Hugh Tizard, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl, Marco Riccioni, Theo McFarland. That is a huge amount of power and carrying ability.
That the scraping-of-the-barrel squad-fodder you list includes several internationals kinda makes the point.
They all punch above their weight and most are pretty big guys. Daly is almost 10kg heavier than Marchant, for example. Lozowski is taller and much heavier than someone like Rory Hutchinson. Duncan Taylor dwarfs most centres. Tompkins is short in comparison but still around 95kg. As is Farrell.And as for the backs being powerful - yes they probably are, but no more powerful than any other 90ish Kgs Premiership back with access to good nutrition, a gym and plenty of time is.
None of them are the size of Tuilagi or Esterhuizen or whatever, but they're top end for the "regular" centres.
Stop reaching FFS.
The Saracens squad is no more exceptional that any other Premiership squad other than it has more Saracens academy players in it than I think any other squad. No gimmicks, no cheating. And they are way out in front.
Your whataboutery regards the Saracens backs is almost legendary forum gibberish. You make Elliot Daly sound like Jonah Lomu!
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:55 pm
How were they so dismantled by Edinburgh then, who are just 9th in the URC and demonstrated finishing "ability" commensurate with that position?JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:23 pmWhy pretend those guys are the Saracens pack? Most of them are reserves or occasional starters at best - some of them have barely started a game this season. Even the capped internationals like Mawi, Pifeleti, and Christie are bench fodder.
Last time I checked, you still had Mako Vunipola (66 caps + 6 Lions caps) , Jamie George (73 caps + 4 Lions), Maro Itoje (63 caps + 6 Lions), Billy Vunipola (66 caps) in that pack starting most games, along with guys like Hugh Tizard, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl, Marco Riccioni, Theo McFarland. That is a huge amount of power and carrying ability.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:57 pm
charltom wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:55 pmHow were they so dismantled by Edinburgh then, who are just 9th in the URC and demonstrated finishing "ability" commensurate with that position?JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:23 pmWhy pretend those guys are the Saracens pack? Most of them are reserves or occasional starters at best - some of them have barely started a game this season. Even the capped internationals like Mawi, Pifeleti, and Christie are bench fodder.
Last time I checked, you still had Mako Vunipola (66 caps + 6 Lions caps) , Jamie George (73 caps + 4 Lions), Maro Itoje (63 caps + 6 Lions), Billy Vunipola (66 caps) in that pack starting most games, along with guys like Hugh Tizard, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl, Marco Riccioni, Theo McFarland. That is a huge amount of power and carrying ability.
No Farrell to lead them.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:07 pm
Before I respond, are you curious in a good faith discussion over how even superb teams can be deservedly beaten or are you here just to gloat for some reasoncharltom wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:55 pmHow were they so dismantled by Edinburgh then, who are just 9th in the URC and demonstrated finishing "ability" commensurate with that position?JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:23 pmWhy pretend those guys are the Saracens pack? Most of them are reserves or occasional starters at best - some of them have barely started a game this season. Even the capped internationals like Mawi, Pifeleti, and Christie are bench fodder.
Last time I checked, you still had Mako Vunipola (66 caps + 6 Lions caps) , Jamie George (73 caps + 4 Lions), Maro Itoje (63 caps + 6 Lions), Billy Vunipola (66 caps) in that pack starting most games, along with guys like Hugh Tizard, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl, Marco Riccioni, Theo McFarland. That is a huge amount of power and carrying ability.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:26 pm
I thought there were conventions about national threads?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:40 pm
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:45 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:15 pmWhich is irrelevant to the point that we were heavy favourites going in and I think *most* of the rugby world expected us to win, particularly based on the week before.Monk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:13 pmEddie must have expected exactly what the Boks would bring and did bringPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:09 pm
We were 10 point plus favourites with the bookies going into the '19 final.
He must have known his pack was going to suffer
He would have been a fool not to
Was pretty rational to see England as favorites. SA had being well beaten by New Zealand in the group and had struggled to get past Wales. England had played one less game due to the typhoon and had gotten better with every game comfortably beating 3 of the RC teams.
Was a funny game we never got out of second gear which obviously has a lot to do with South Africa but also England were in a RWC final that should have defined many of the players careers but in terms of intensity they looked link a 3rd team shambling onto the pitch after a two hour car journey. I wonder if we will get to hear more now Jones is gone.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:51 pm
would add that I watch a lot of england club rugby. A LOT.
as a fan of the game it is natural to see what is coming out of england especially with a WC in the near future
where else should I discuss the opinions I form on what I see?
as a fan of the game it is natural to see what is coming out of england especially with a WC in the near future
where else should I discuss the opinions I form on what I see?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:01 pm
I don't think the suggestion is that we keep these threads just for English posters, just that drive-by shitposting, trolling, and gloating is reserved for us alone
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:03 pm
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:33 pm
I suspect it's the Edinburgh post that annoyed Mahoney more than your insistence that England were always likely to lose the final :-)
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:02 pm
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:14 pm
Monk - if you're here to talk English rugby in good faith then you're very welcome.
The custom is there because it is often hard to discuss your rugby without shitposters descending in exceptionally bad faith, particularly when the rugby involves England or English teams. So call it a safe space if you like, I'd see it more as the England 'clubhouse' on this bored. Like any clubhouse, away fans are most welcome but if they act like tits it's time to go home.
The custom is there because it is often hard to discuss your rugby without shitposters descending in exceptionally bad faith, particularly when the rugby involves England or English teams. So call it a safe space if you like, I'd see it more as the England 'clubhouse' on this bored. Like any clubhouse, away fans are most welcome but if they act like tits it's time to go home.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:55 pm
Anyone know if the U20 matches are on TV?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:15 pm