Not Heineken Cup 23/24

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laurent
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JM2K6 wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:07 am
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:10 am There is no way this wasn't known in relevant circles, not perhaps by everyone, but the numbers who did and didn't act assuming others must/might be or pretended they didn't know would be along a similar line of defence being used by various Post Office managers.

It stinks. But also, over to Exeter to see if they have any worthwhile notion of morality
Lol what is this
I don't believe the English have any notions :razz:

Not that the French have any claims to that either :lol:
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Enzedder
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JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 10:18 pm It's not just the selection from the Bulls - this was sparked by hearing TNT people demand things change to accommodate them, despite this being one of the big objections to their presence in the first place. Meanwhile, darlings Leinster thump a strangely lethargic La Rochelle who just so happened to have to travel to SA and back the previous round and no-one connects the dots...

Hohum. At least we get the club world cup now! Another great decision for the money that will definitely be of huge benefit with no down sides! (lol)
I agree re travel being a killer - for them and the "local" sides.

The La Rochelle result reminded me of when the Chiefs had to play the Sharks away for the last round of our round robin. Then we had to fly home for a semi-final, then hop on a plane back to JoBurg for the Bulls in the final. Lost by a record margin and the players were shattered inside 30 minutes. Still, it is what it is - you play the Saffers for the good parts and the bad parts.
I drink and I forget things.
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PornDog
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So apparently Croke Park is sold out - 82,300 tickets sold already!

Didn't expect a sell out at all, let alone in this short a timeframe!
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OomStruisbaai
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Enzedder wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:33 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 10:18 pm It's not just the selection from the Bulls - this was sparked by hearing TNT people demand things change to accommodate them, despite this being one of the big objections to their presence in the first place. Meanwhile, darlings Leinster thump a strangely lethargic La Rochelle who just so happened to have to travel to SA and back the previous round and no-one connects the dots...

Hohum. At least we get the club world cup now! Another great decision for the money that will definitely be of huge benefit with no down sides! (lol)
I agree re travel being a killer - for them and the "local" sides.

The La Rochelle result reminded me of when the Chiefs had to play the Sharks away for the last round of our round robin. Then we had to fly home for a semi-final, then hop on a plane back to JoBurg for the Bulls in the final. Lost by a record margin and the players were shattered inside 30 minutes. Still, it is what it is - you play the Saffers for the good parts and the bad parts.
Oom Enz, he want the world cup. Still looking for excuses.
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OomStruisbaai
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PornDog wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 4:19 pm So apparently Croke Park is sold out - 82,300 tickets sold already!

Didn't expect a sell out at all, let alone in this short a timeframe!
Well that's excellent.
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fishfoodie
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PornDog wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 4:19 pm So apparently Croke Park is sold out - 82,300 tickets sold already!

Didn't expect a sell out at all, let alone in this short a timeframe!
Happy memories for a lot of Leinster supporters from their 1st HEC win & that Semi-Final against Munster in Croker !
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JM2K6
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Enzedder wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:33 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 10:18 pm It's not just the selection from the Bulls - this was sparked by hearing TNT people demand things change to accommodate them, despite this being one of the big objections to their presence in the first place. Meanwhile, darlings Leinster thump a strangely lethargic La Rochelle who just so happened to have to travel to SA and back the previous round and no-one connects the dots...

Hohum. At least we get the club world cup now! Another great decision for the money that will definitely be of huge benefit with no down sides! (lol)
I agree re travel being a killer - for them and the "local" sides.

The La Rochelle result reminded me of when the Chiefs had to play the Sharks away for the last round of our round robin. Then we had to fly home for a semi-final, then hop on a plane back to JoBurg for the Bulls in the final. Lost by a record margin and the players were shattered inside 30 minutes. Still, it is what it is - you play the Saffers for the good parts and the bad parts.
Still waiting for the good parts.
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Sards
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JM2K6 wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:38 pm

Still waiting for the good parts.

I have always been against leaving Superrugby. That was the best rugby around then.
The New Zealand teams were all strong. Aussies a bit meh.
But you knew it was going to be hard. Unfortunately a victim of Covid and a board scratching around for money. It was like selling your soul for money. So far the competition is interesting. Definitely travel issues which noone expected selling the competition on the basis of it being easier. I can't remember coaches bitching to the press about travel like we have in the URC. Ok there is suddenly lots of money moving around South African franchises by investors. That can only be good right? So what is the bubble that is going to burst?

Lots of resentment from pundits like yourself. Traditionalist. Don't want us here. For whatever reason. Our vokking arrogance. The 4 RWCs. Not winning enough to add value. Winning too much?

Who knows.

Yeah I get the South African arrogance. I live amongst it . I support the Sharks and I live smack in the middle of Stormers supporters. So don't preach to me about that. But you get used to it. You read or listen to what you want as an adult.
The constant drone of 4 RWCs. No matter how bad we play in our franchises, South Africa has 4 vokken RWCs. In your face vokker.
The results on tour haven't been going our way. But it hasn't really been tours. More like hopping back and forth. So no. It hasn't been the battle people were wanting to pay to see. But enjoy it while it lasts. South Africans are resilient. We take a bit longer to adapt because we are barely out of our Neanderthal heritage. But once we get there. Enzeder might have something different to say . And bless him he will be right. But things are different now. Rugby is now becoming a business instead of a provincial pride. We are finally moving out of the farm houses and moving into the city.

The one match I will never forget waa the Sharks victory over a Crusaders top team with 13 men for the Sharks. At Christchurch. Nothing on offer in the URC will ever give me the satisfaction or pride that victory gave me

There have been some classic games
Check out this. Look at the personnel involved

Rhubarb & Custard
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Someone else is welcome to all those 'good parts'. We're all about the giving in Europe
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OomStruisbaai
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Our fellow URC broers adopt quickly to the idea of Saffers joining except those with a lot of Saffers in their teams.

The biggest benefit for us playing north and the north teams playing in SA is that the players get use to the two different environments. If I read between the lines that is what most NZ players miss.

The URC blossomed in growth and quality since we joined. We even help the Welsch. This weekend the Stormers will play against the Ospreys Cheetahs. It will take a bit of time for the supporters to get use to the new teams and rivalry. Personally I can see the Irish vs South African one growing quickly.

Its only Spivs and some French that bitch about us but fuck them.
_Os_
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The Aussies bitched for at least a whole decade, that our teams added nothing to Super Rugby: the time zones, the travel, their own ignorance of SA geography and where the teams were from, their own ignorance of our players, their claims of our sides not being good enough (the Spears/Kings, our 6th Super Rugby franchise, have a positive winning record against Aussie sides). They ended up blaming SA for rugby being unpopular in Australia. Without us they were set for an extraordinary future. Which is why the boomed out of a RWC in the pool stage, getting blown apart by an average Wales, losing to Fiji, and struggling at times against both Portugal and Georgia. They're doing so well the Kiwis have decided they have to find ways to play SA sides more.

Ireland/Scotland/Italy (not Wales) take the URC seriously and so playing SA sides seriously along with that, according to their own fans/ex-test players/journs they're all the strongest they've ever been.

Definitely no correlation.
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JM2K6
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_Os_ wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:22 amIreland/Scotland/Italy (not Wales) take the URC seriously and so playing SA sides seriously along with that, according to their own fans/ex-test players/journs they're all the strongest they've ever been.

Definitely no correlation.
Correct, no correlation, given their huge improvement came before SA sides had a sniff of the URC.
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JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:24 am
_Os_ wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:22 amIreland/Scotland/Italy (not Wales) take the URC seriously and so playing SA sides seriously along with that, according to their own fans/ex-test players/journs they're all the strongest they've ever been.

Definitely no correlation.
Correct, no correlation, given their huge improvement came before SA sides had a sniff of the URC.
There's maybe been SA sides in the Pro/URC for longer than you think.

Definitely no correlation.
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JM2K6
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_Os_ wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:26 am
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:24 am
_Os_ wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:22 amIreland/Scotland/Italy (not Wales) take the URC seriously and so playing SA sides seriously along with that, according to their own fans/ex-test players/journs they're all the strongest they've ever been.

Definitely no correlation.
Correct, no correlation, given their huge improvement came before SA sides had a sniff of the URC.
There's maybe been SA sides in the Pro/URC for longer than you think.

Definitely no correlation.
SA sides joined in 2021.

Ireland were #1 in the world going into the RWC in 2019. Scotland are the same rank now as they were in 2017/18 (I will agree they have improved on that team, but that era was the huge transformation). Italy are the highest ranked they been for a very long time but as anyone who follows U20s rugby knows, this is partly due to their players getting more exposure in URC/T14/Prem rugby, partly due to their club sides finding some form, and partly due to a revolution in their youth system.
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Yep that youth teams, including England and France prepare for 6 nations in South Africa.
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JM2K6
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Oom, I beg you - just let any AI chatbot from the last 5 years write your posts for you. I swear they'll improve.
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JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:36 am
_Os_ wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:26 am
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:24 am

Correct, no correlation, given their huge improvement came before SA sides had a sniff of the URC.
There's maybe been SA sides in the Pro/URC for longer than you think.

Definitely no correlation.
SA sides joined in 2021.

Ireland were #1 in the world going into the RWC in 2019. Scotland are the same rank now as they were in 2017/18 (I will agree they have improved on that team, but that era was the huge transformation). Italy are the highest ranked they been for a very long time but as anyone who follows U20s rugby knows, this is partly due to their players getting more exposure in URC/T14/Prem rugby, partly due to their club sides finding some form, and partly due to a revolution in their youth system.
SA sides joined in 2017.

Not great in results terms, Cheetahs made a quarter and were usually mid table-ish with about as many wins as losses. That the Cheetahs were top of the try scoring count maybe tells its own story, of those Mapimpi/Ox Nche/Dweba have all become Boks since. From memory they did beat top sides through those seasons, I would watch if there was no Super Rugby clash. Getting a match from the Bulls/Stomps/Sharks/Lions is one thing, getting a match or beaten by the Cheetahs is a bigger wake up. Kings weren't good though and had a lot of off field problems that prevented them putting a strong squad together through that period, Deon Davids the coach they had early on was rated and has been in the Bok setup since Rassie has been there.

Seems obvious to me that if you have a competition that's played across different countries, with a variation in playing styles, playing conditions/weather, and there's not many weak sides. Then whatever that's like for fans or people that want every competition to have the exact same teams/team names/jersey colours from the 1875 season, that competition is going to produce much better players. The Pro/URC has gone in one direction and Super Rugby in the other, an interesting experiment. Ox played most of the 2017-2018 Pro season at prop for the Cheetahs and won a RWC semi in 2023 basically on his own at the scrum at the age of 28.

But ... definitely no correlation.
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_Os_ wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:58 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:36 am
_Os_ wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:26 am
There's maybe been SA sides in the Pro/URC for longer than you think.

Definitely no correlation.
SA sides joined in 2021.

Ireland were #1 in the world going into the RWC in 2019. Scotland are the same rank now as they were in 2017/18 (I will agree they have improved on that team, but that era was the huge transformation). Italy are the highest ranked they been for a very long time but as anyone who follows U20s rugby knows, this is partly due to their players getting more exposure in URC/T14/Prem rugby, partly due to their club sides finding some form, and partly due to a revolution in their youth system.
SA sides joined in 2017.

Not great in results terms, Cheetahs made a quarter and were usually mid table-ish with about as many wins as losses. That the Cheetahs were top of the try scoring count maybe tells its own story, of those Mapimpi/Ox Nche/Dweba have all become Boks since. From memory they did beat top sides through those seasons, I would watch if there was no Super Rugby clash. Getting a match from the Bulls/Stomps/Sharks/Lions is one thing, getting a match or beaten by the Cheetahs is a bigger wake up. Kings weren't good though and had a lot of off field problems that prevented them putting a strong squad together through that period, Deon Davids the coach they had early on was rated and has been in the Bok setup since Rassie has been there.
Oh, my bad - I thought we were talking about the Super Rugby teams, not the lower tier stuff. But I know you're trolling if you're claiming the Cheetahs and the Kings are why Scotland and Ireland got better. You may as well point to the introduction of the Italian teams. Scotland hit that historical highest rank in 2017 - i.e. before the Cheetahs + Kings had any impact - and Ireland had turned into the side capable of turning over NZ in 2016, then beat the world #1 side England in 2017. Their climb up the ladder was well under way.
Seems obvious to me that if you have a competition that's played across different countries, with a variation in playing styles, playing conditions/weather, and there's not many weak sides. Then whatever that's like for fans or people that want every competition to have the exact same teams/team names/jersey colours from the 1875 season, that competition is going to produce much better players. The Pro/URC has gone in one direction and Super Rugby in the other, an interesting experiment. Ox played most of the 2017-2018 Pro season at prop for the Cheetahs and won a RWC semi in 2023 basically on his own at the scrum at the age of 28.

But ... definitely no correlation.
Which competition are we talking about? Can't be the URC. Ulster and Connacht are piss, the Welsh sides useless, Glasgow are good and Edinburgh OK, Italian sides are improving but are easy meat in Euro competition. No-one outside of Leinster genuinely threatens the business end of the Champions Cup [edit: not talking the SA teams here]. The Saffer sides haven't been as good this season as last, but as it's an extremely small sample size I won't draw any conclusions from that.
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JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:36 pm
Which competition are we talking about? Can't be the URC. Ulster and Connacht are piss, the Welsh sides useless, Glasgow are good and Edinburgh OK, Italian sides are improving but are easy meat in Euro competition. No-one outside of Leinster genuinely threatens the business end of the Champions Cup [edit: not talking the SA teams here]. The Saffer sides haven't been as good this season as last, but as it's an extremely small sample size I won't draw any conclusions from that.
That's very true. Our sides have really been poor this season.
Hangover from the RWC.

Out of curiosity. If the Stormers finish 8th and the Sharks win the challenge cup. What happens then?
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Sards
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Going on the Lions result. And the humiliation of this weekends Stormers result. Are the academy Leinster team facing a backlash in Cape Town?
Stormers will be desperate for some points
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JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:36 pm Oh, my bad - I thought we were talking about the Super Rugby teams, not the lower tier stuff. But I know you're trolling if you're claiming the Cheetahs and the Kings are why Scotland and Ireland got better. You may as well point to the introduction of the Italian teams. Scotland hit that historical highest rank in 2017 - i.e. before the Cheetahs + Kings had any impact - and Ireland had turned into the side capable of turning over NZ in 2016, then beat the world #1 side England in 2017. Their climb up the ladder was well under way.
They were both Super Rugby sides, but like I said the Kings had a lot of problems and were poor, the Cheetahs had a decent squad though.

Their DoR was Franco Smith who went on to coach Italy and then Glasgow. Their backline had: Ruan Pienaar, Shaun Venter, Johan Goosen, Fred Zeilinga, Francois Venter, Rayno Benjamin, Mapimpi, Sergeal Petersen, Raymond Rhule, Rosko Specman, Cecil Afrika, Clayton Blommetjies, Malcom Jaer. Their pack had: Aranos Coetzee, Ox Nche, Dweba, Torsten van Jaarsveld, Neethling Fouche, JP du Preez, Reniel Hugo, Hilton Lobberts, Oupa Mohoje, Henco Venter, Jasper Wiese, Chris Dry.
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:36 pm Which competition are we talking about? Can't be the URC. Ulster and Connacht are piss, the Welsh sides useless, Glasgow are good and Edinburgh OK, Italian sides are improving but are easy meat in Euro competition. No-one outside of Leinster genuinely threatens the business end of the Champions Cup [edit: not talking the SA teams here]. The Saffer sides haven't been as good this season as last, but as it's an extremely small sample size I won't draw any conclusions from that.
So you rate Leinster and after them Munster/Glasgow and maybe Edinburgh. The Cheetahs beat all four of those sides in the Pro, because going to Bloem and paying a half decent Cheetahs side is hard, if you take a weakened squad then a blowout loss is possible. The Saders have lost to the Cheetahs in Bloem with McCaw and Carter and all the rest of that era of All Black Crusaders playing.

The obvious point is, the teams need to have players qualified to play for your country in them to work as feeder sides. A strong French club side isn't normally about just the French players, a URC side is almost entirely about players eligible for the national side. The next obvious point is the career path of an excellent player could involve playing in a weak side against strong opponents. Producing a strong test side isn't about every club/province being the Crusaders.

A lot of Saffas thought the URC would be as weak as you say, I had been watching the Pro so it was less of a surprise to me. A season/s of matches home and away isn't the same as a one off matches, and we're the only set of fans which can directly compare the URC and Super Rugby having watched our sides in both.

There's almost no easy away matches in the URC, mostly because the weaker sides have stronger packs than the weaker sides in Super Rugby. In Super Rugby the Sunwolves were a joke team, the Force and Rebels weren't much better. There would usually be one weak Kiwi side, often the Blues or Landers, who would struggle even at home if they lost the forward battle. If the Sharks pulled a Sunwolves/Force/Rebels/Blues/Landers tour, you would be more worried about the length of the tour than any huge concern about dropping matches and coming away with almost nothing. The URC is completely different, with the exception of Zebre any of the sides could win at home, even the Dragons are going to do something on defence and in the forwards a side has to do something to beat them.

Harder to measure the top teams against eachother.

From the Aussie sides one or two of Brumbies/Tahs/Reds would be good. From a Sharks perspective the Brumbies were always consistent and never poor but not excellent since the 00s, Tahs were the best Aussie side and normally a bit above the Brumbies, Reds erratic sometimes excellent sometimes shit. The strength of Aussie sides was always about which team had their best forwards, which was almost always Tahs first then Brumbies, then nothing. Aussie Super Rugby sides as a group would struggle to live with the Welsh URC sides as a group, home/away over a season. The expectation would be the best Aussie side, probably the Tahs, doing well against the best Welsh side which would probably be Ospreys (but that expectation could be misplaced, Ospreys just beat the Stomps in Cape Town which was a rare achievement for the Tahs over 3 decades of Super Rugby), but then there's the awful Force/Rebels (which the Kings our 6th side could beat, but then they beat the Tahs as well, and drew with the Brumbies, only the Reds have a 100% record against the Kings out of the Aussie sides but they only played them once ... when you see your 6th side dealing with every Aussie side their combined efforts failing to produce a positive win ratio against the Kings, it opens your eyes somewhat), a Brumbies side probably around the Tahs level but weaker in the pack, and the Reds who could be as bad as the Force/Rebels or better than all of them. It wouldn't surprise if the Welsh sides came out on top, they have better forwards.

From the Kiwi sides. Saders were a level above anything, a complete team and consistently excellent. Next best the Canes. Next best probably the Chiefs. Below the Saders it's less consistent though, everyone remembers the excellent Canes/Chiefs/Landers/Blues sides, they don't remember the blowouts they took against SA teams though. The Sharks played Kiwi sides 120 times, 57 wins, 60 losses, 3 draws, of the losses 18 were against the Saders. In NZ the Sharks played 64, won 22, lost 39, draw 3, the Blues and Landers didn't have positive winning records against the Sharks in NZ. A side like the Sharks who haven't won a title (sob) don't get this record if Kiwis are invincible. Basically the Saders are normally better than every other team, and normally there's one or two other NZ sides about on that level but which teams those are changes.

I expect most Saffas would say something like overall the URC is stronger than Super Rugby but not playing the top 3 or so Kiwi sides is a loss.
Last edited by _Os_ on Sun Apr 21, 2024 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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It was rare to get a Saffer playing for the Aussies & NZ franchises. In the URC all the NH teams have Saffers. The Ospreys have even went further with a mutual contract with the Cheetahs. Jeandré Rudolph, I player who I always rate very high, slam in the last nail last night in the Stormers coffen. The Cheetahs will use some of their younger players in our CC. Saffer players in all the NH teams will be very helpfull touring SA.
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OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:59 pm It was rare to get a Saffer playing for the Aussies & NZ franchises. In the URC all the NH teams have Saffers. The Ospreys have even went further with a mutual contract with the Cheetahs. Jeandré Rudolph, I player who I always rate very high, slam in the last nail last night in the Stormers coffen. The Cheetahs will use some of their younger players in our CC. Saffer players in all the NH teams will be very helpfull touring SA.
There were some rare examples. The classic was a very well respected Aussie poster asking who the Reds (from memory) new signing was, it was a journeyman SA player that had been playing Super Rugby for years and years. It was impossible to have watched Super Rugby and have not seen the player. He was totally fucking clueless who this player was. It would happen sometimes when Bok teams were selected too, particularly Aussies would just not know who the new players were. Then they came out with crazy shit like SA has too many sides and had to cut the number of teams from 5 to 4, when they struggled to beat the Kings who had already been cut to make them happy.

You would even see it on Aussie and NZ rugby analysis shows, as in people paid to watch Super rugby would say shit like "I watched all the matches this round, even the ones with SA teams". Meanwhile random average Saffa fans are watching every match, and the Aussie and Kiwi analysis shows too on top of our own.

Definitely no correlation in their test performances and losing 6 SA sides and 1 Argie side, none at all.
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JM2K6
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_Os_ wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:22 am
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:36 pm Oh, my bad - I thought we were talking about the Super Rugby teams, not the lower tier stuff. But I know you're trolling if you're claiming the Cheetahs and the Kings are why Scotland and Ireland got better. You may as well point to the introduction of the Italian teams. Scotland hit that historical highest rank in 2017 - i.e. before the Cheetahs + Kings had any impact - and Ireland had turned into the side capable of turning over NZ in 2016, then beat the world #1 side England in 2017. Their climb up the ladder was well under way.
They were both Super Rugby sides, but like I said the Kings had a lot of problems and were poor, the Cheetahs had a decent squad though.

Their DoR was Franco Smith who went on to coach Italy and then Glasgow. Their backline had: Ruan Pienaar, Shaun Venter, Johan Goosen, Fred Zeilinga, Francois Venter, Rayno Benjamin, Mapimpi, Sergeal Petersen, Raymond Rhule, Rosko Specman, Cecil Afrika, Clayton Blommetjies, Malcom Jaer. Their pack had: Aranos Coetzee, Ox Nche, Dweba, Torsten van Jaarsveld, Neethling Fouche, JP du Preez, Reniel Hugo, Hilton Lobberts, Oupa Mohoje, Henco Venter, Jasper Wiese, Chris Dry.
The Cheetahs could barely buy a win outside of South Africa. Given how often teams send weakened sides to SA, the Cheetahs' mediocre returns in the Pro14 era is no evidence at all of quality that led to an improvement for the competing nations.
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:36 pm Which competition are we talking about? Can't be the URC. Ulster and Connacht are piss, the Welsh sides useless, Glasgow are good and Edinburgh OK, Italian sides are improving but are easy meat in Euro competition. No-one outside of Leinster genuinely threatens the business end of the Champions Cup [edit: not talking the SA teams here]. The Saffer sides haven't been as good this season as last, but as it's an extremely small sample size I won't draw any conclusions from that.
So you rate Leinster and after them Munster/Glasgow and maybe Edinburgh. The Cheetahs beat all four of those sides in the Pro, because going to Bloem and paying a half decent Cheetahs side is hard, if you take a weakened squad then a blowout loss is possible. The Saders have lost to the Cheetahs in Bloem with McCaw and Carter and all the rest of that era of All Black Crusaders playing.

The obvious point is, the teams need to have players qualified to play for your country in them to work as feeder sides. A strong French club side isn't normally about just the French players, a URC side is almost entirely about players eligible for the national side. The next obvious point is the career path of an excellent player could involve playing in a weak side against strong opponents. Producing a strong test side isn't about every club/province being the Crusaders.

A lot of Saffas thought the URC would be as weak as you say, I had been watching the Pro so it was less of a surprise to me. A season/s of matches home and away isn't the same as a one off matches, and we're the only set of fans which can directly compare the URC and Super Rugby having watched our sides in both.

There's almost no easy away matches in the URC, mostly because the weaker sides have stronger packs than the weaker sides in Super Rugby. In Super Rugby the Sunwolves were a joke team, the Force and Rebels weren't much better. There would usually be one weak Kiwi side, often the Blues or Landers, who would struggle even at home if they lost the forward battle. If the Sharks pulled a Sunwolves/Force/Rebels/Blues/Landers tour, you would be more worried about the length of the tour than any huge concern about dropping matches and coming away with almost nothing. The URC is completely different, with the exception of Zebre any of the sides could win at home, even the Dragons are going to do something on defence and in the forwards a side has to do something to beat them.

Harder to measure the top teams against eachother.
Well, the one way we do measure them is in European competition. That's basically the purpose of it. And it's not a great story for the majority of the non-SA sides. But I've talked about this before and relitigating it would make it seem like I have a chip on my shoulder about it, when in reality it's just an observation.

As for "There's almost no easy away matches in the URC" - Cardiff? Scarlets? Zebre? C'mon.

I'm no expert on the URC but I do know that, for example, Leinster have never had to pick a 1st team for an away game in SA, which is mad stuff. I see they got gubbed the other day with their 2nd XV. Does that tell us anything about their quality? Not really. Does the fact that the Cheetahs beat teams in Bloemfontaine mean anything if they couldn't buy a win outside of SA? I'm not sure it does - to me, that's an indictment of the warping power of the travel and the altitude; I don't think that has any positive influence on the national sides at all.
From the Aussie sides one or two of Brumbies/Tahs/Reds would be good. From a Sharks perspective the Brumbies were always consistent and never poor but not excellent since the 00s, Tahs were the best Aussie side and normally a bit above the Brumbies, Reds erratic sometimes excellent sometimes shit. The strength of Aussie sides was always about which team had their best forwards, which was almost always Tahs first then Brumbies, then nothing. Aussie Super Rugby sides as a group would struggle to live with the Welsh URC sides as a group, home/away over a season. The expectation would be the best Aussie side, probably the Tahs, doing well against the best Welsh side which would probably be Ospreys (but that expectation could be misplaced, Ospreys just beat the Stomps in Cape Town which was a rare achievement for the Tahs over 3 decades of Super Rugby), but then there's the awful Force/Rebels (which the Kings our 6th side could beat, but then they beat the Tahs as well, and drew with the Brumbies, only the Reds have a 100% record against the Kings out of the Aussie sides but they only played them once ... when you see your 6th side dealing with every Aussie side their combined efforts failing to produce a positive win ratio against the Kings, it opens your eyes somewhat), a Brumbies side probably around the Tahs level but weaker in the pack, and the Reds who could be as bad as the Force/Rebels or better than all of them. It wouldn't surprise if the Welsh sides came out on top, they have better forwards.

From the Kiwi sides. Saders were a level above anything, a complete team and consistently excellent. Next best the Canes. Next best probably the Chiefs. Below the Saders it's less consistent though, everyone remembers the excellent Canes/Chiefs/Landers/Blues sides, they don't remember the blowouts they took against SA teams though. The Sharks played Kiwi sides 120 times, 57 wins, 60 losses, 3 draws, of the losses 18 were against the Saders. In NZ the Sharks played 64, won 22, lost 39, draw 3, the Blues and Landers didn't have positive winning records against the Sharks in NZ. A side like the Sharks who haven't won a title (sob) don't get this record if Kiwis are invincible. Basically the Saders are normally better than every other team, and normally there's one or two other NZ sides about on that level but which teams those are changes.

I expect most Saffas would say something like overall the URC is stronger than Super Rugby but not playing the top 3 or so Kiwi sides is a loss.
This is an interesting perspective and I don't have a lot to add to it, except to say that you're also seeing a drop off from a frankly legendary set of NZ players (and some Aussies). To address your point to Sards, NZ's international drop off came as a result of a combination of extremely poor decisions made regarding coaching staff, and the inevitable reduction in quality after losing a large number of frankly all-time great players. I'd argue SA aren't anywhere near as good as they were in the mid/late 2000s, despite the RWC win.
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lemonhead
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Won't comment on the correlation between Saffa sides joining the Pro/URC ranks and improvements at national level. Too many other factors in play.

But it's beyond arguing that they've ramped up the competitiveness of the league to stratospheric levels based on where it was before. A comp formerly on life support and not much more than a training run for Leinster aside from the odd flash in the pan, never to be seen again.

The knock on effect now with top four all in touching distance and the next seven jockeying for position with 3pts separating them all is mental. Teams are more competitive and having to fight for everything. It has massively benefited the three unions but probably more in terms of exposing the squads to a higher standard outside of Europe, which helps build better depth.

The Leinster example's not a bad one: in recent years they could win away from home with the Bs and leave half their starting team out for knockout games. Now they're starting to lose those, and no coincidence they haven't won a title since it became the URC. Might well do this year - but make no mistake it'll be with their full-strength XV.
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Didn't they lose the last one because they rested players for an actual knockout game against Munster, or am I misremembering?
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The URC is a fantastic competition and is growing from strength to strength. Having the SA sides in it obviously improved the value and competitiveness. Whilst there were many against the idea in the beginning, I think the overall majority would now agree it was the best decision for all. When it comes to the Champion's cup, the SA sides will take a few years to get to grips with it. When do we become shareholders? 2026? Or next year? Having home 1/4ers or semi's will make a huge difference too.
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lemonhead
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JM2K6 wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:14 am Didn't they lose the last one because they rested players for an actual knockout game against Munster, or am I misremembering?
They did indeed. And that's my point, go back 3-4 years and the league challenge was that dead in the water they could pick & mix whenever they liked and still win.

We've improved for sure, but so has the overall standard. Bulls went to Dublin and beat them the year before last.
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If people following the URC like the URC that's great, but an African teams have no business in a European event, and worse it's not even a North African set of sides so the travel is way too much (even before one considers climate change and that flights should be discouraged)
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Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:28 am If people following the URC like the URC that's great, but an African teams have no business in a European event, and worse it's not even a North African set of sides so the travel is way too much (even before one considers climate change and that flights should be discouraged)
It used to be a European competition, but it's not anymore.

Competitions evolve all the time. Four Nations became Six Nations. Tri-Nations became The Rugby Championship.
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JM2K6
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assfly wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:18 am
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:28 am If people following the URC like the URC that's great, but an African teams have no business in a European event, and worse it's not even a North African set of sides so the travel is way too much (even before one considers climate change and that flights should be discouraged)
It used to be a European competition, but it's not anymore.

Competitions evolve all the time. Four Nations became Six Nations. Tri-Nations became The Rugby Championship.
Yeah but the question is are they adding more than they take away. I don't believe they are, and the travel is a big part of that.
petej
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JM2K6 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:48 am
assfly wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:18 am
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:28 am If people following the URC like the URC that's great, but an African teams have no business in a European event, and worse it's not even a North African set of sides so the travel is way too much (even before one considers climate change and that flights should be discouraged)
It used to be a European competition, but it's not anymore.

Competitions evolve all the time. Four Nations became Six Nations. Tri-Nations became The Rugby Championship.
Yeah but the question is are they adding more than they take away. I don't believe they are, and the travel is a big part of that.
Also the tournament has terrible structure these days. I get fed up of relentlessly seeding every competition (not just rugby tbf). It removes the randomness of what is a cup competition.
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assfly
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JM2K6 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:48 am Yeah but the question is are they adding more than they take away. I don't believe they are, and the travel is a big part of that.
I think they are adding to it, we've seen some great games involving them. I wonder if the Bulls beat Northampton we'd be asking the same question.

The travel component is also a reason why I don't see a South African team winning it anytime soon.

There are a lot of problems with the Champions Cup, from my perspective. The format is stupid, and there are too many teams and repeat games. I would go with the suggestion made elsewhere that the number of teams are reduced and the Challenge Cup is expanded, making it more prestigious so that teams playing would take it more seriously.

And if you're going to ask about adding value, then you also need to look at the French teams who are so quick to throw in the towel.
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Sards
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assfly wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:18 am
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:28 am If people following the URC like the URC that's great, but an African teams have no business in a European event, and worse it's not even a North African set of sides so the travel is way too much (even before one considers climate change and that flights should be discouraged)
It used to be a European competition, but it's not anymore.

Competitions evolve all the time. Four Nations became Six Nations. Tri-Nations became The Rugby Championship.
Its difficult to accept change as you get older. But I am sure the boys playing love the tournament....
And all the Irish sides developing players for Leinster actually get to see their players getting game time.
Us oldies have to start letting go of our prejudices.
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JM2K6 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:48 am
assfly wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:18 am
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:28 am If people following the URC like the URC that's great, but an African teams have no business in a European event, and worse it's not even a North African set of sides so the travel is way too much (even before one considers climate change and that flights should be discouraged)
It used to be a European competition, but it's not anymore.

Competitions evolve all the time. Four Nations became Six Nations. Tri-Nations became The Rugby Championship.
Yeah but the question is are they adding more than they take away. I don't believe they are, and the travel is a big part of that.
Well if that's the criteria then the SPIVs should have been barred from involvement for your years now :razz:
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If people don't want the English, and they very recently had a chance to say thanks but no thanks, then fair enough. But we are at least in Europe and don't present as an absurd travel requirement.
inactionman
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Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:16 pm If people don't want the English, and they very recently had a chance to say thanks but no thanks, then fair enough. But we are at least in Europe and don't present as an absurd travel requirement.
Who in their right mind wouldn't want an away trip to Gloucester.
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inactionman wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:17 pm
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:16 pm If people don't want the English, and they very recently had a chance to say thanks but no thanks, then fair enough. But we are at least in Europe and don't present as an absurd travel requirement.
Who in their right mind wouldn't want an away trip to Gloucester.
If there's one team in England who could fail to qualify for Europe, snatching total obscurity away from a seeming unmissable chance to at least be in Challenge Cup you'd have to think it was Glaws. Such a proud record of consistently being less than the sum of their parts is admirable, and then the fans are great so it's a decent day out, a few beers, and what should be a BP win, so if they in who indeed wouldn't want the trip?
inactionman
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Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:32 pm
inactionman wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:17 pm
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:16 pm If people don't want the English, and they very recently had a chance to say thanks but no thanks, then fair enough. But we are at least in Europe and don't present as an absurd travel requirement.
Who in their right mind wouldn't want an away trip to Gloucester.
If there's one team in England who could fail to qualify for Europe, snatching total obscurity away from a seeming unmissable chance to at least be in Challenge Cup you'd have to think it was Glaws. Such a proud record of consistently being less than the sum of their parts is admirable, and then the fans are great so it's a decent day out, a few beers, and what should be a BP win, so if they in who indeed wouldn't want the trip?
There's 500 square yards of Gloucester which is quite nice, and then there's the rest of it.

But they can be a very entertaining side, and the fans do like a bit of 'atmosphere'
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JM2K6
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assfly wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:56 am
JM2K6 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:48 am Yeah but the question is are they adding more than they take away. I don't believe they are, and the travel is a big part of that.
I think they are adding to it, we've seen some great games involving them. I wonder if the Bulls beat Northampton we'd be asking the same question.

The travel component is also a reason why I don't see a South African team winning it anytime soon.

There are a lot of problems with the Champions Cup, from my perspective. The format is stupid, and there are too many teams and repeat games. I would go with the suggestion made elsewhere that the number of teams are reduced and the Challenge Cup is expanded, making it more prestigious so that teams playing would take it more seriously.

And if you're going to ask about adding value, then you also need to look at the French teams who are so quick to throw in the towel.
Well, it was the complaining and demands for change coming from the Bulls coach in the week leading up to the game that sparked this round of discussion, so the result merely served to provoke TNT into also demanding change.

I think you are focusing too hard on the results. I took it for granted that the SA teams would dominate, so them underperforming is a surprise to me and a let down - as a rugby fan and spectator I would like to watch good teams play good rugby. I am irritated that they haven't really challenged this season as it was literally the only thing in the positive column for me. It is not the core complaint, and it certainly wouldn't make up for the problems inherent in the SA sides joining the competition.

However, anyone pointing at the French is just engaging in daft whataboutery. They absolutely provide far more value than they take away. Just like English and Irish sides, they are embedded in the very core of the competition and its history. They also provide a huge chunk of fans and viewers, along with some of the greatest and accessible away trips opposing supporters could dream of. No one is pretending the tournament has ever been perfect and no nation can claim to be flawless in their approach.
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