NPR

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:14 pm Monk - if you're here to talk English rugby in good faith then you're very welcome.

The custom is there because it is often hard to discuss your rugby without shitposters descending in exceptionally bad faith, particularly when the rugby involves England or English teams. So call it a safe space if you like, I'd see it more as the England 'clubhouse' on this bored. Like any clubhouse, away fans are most welcome but if they act like tits it's time to go home.

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:15 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:55 pm Anyone know if the U20 matches are on TV?

iPlayer

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:07 pm

charltom wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:55 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:23 pmWhy pretend those guys are the Saracens pack? Most of them are reserves or occasional starters at best - some of them have barely started a game this season. Even the capped internationals like Mawi, Pifeleti, and Christie are bench fodder.

Last time I checked, you still had Mako Vunipola (66 caps + 6 Lions caps) , Jamie George (73 caps + 4 Lions), Maro Itoje (63 caps + 6 Lions), Billy Vunipola (66 caps) in that pack starting most games, along with guys like Hugh Tizard, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl, Marco Riccioni, Theo McFarland. That is a huge amount of power and carrying ability.

How were they so dismantled by Edinburgh then, who are just 9th in the URC and demonstrated finishing "ability" commensurate with that position?

Before I respond, are you curious in a good faith discussion over how even superb teams can be deservedly beaten or are you here just to gloat for some reason

charltom wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:03 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:07 pm

charltom wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:55 pm

How were they so dismantled by Edinburgh then, who are just 9th in the URC and demonstrated finishing "ability" commensurate with that position?

Before I respond, are you curious in a good faith discussion over how even superb teams can be deservedly beaten or are you here just to gloat for some reason

Curious. All I've seen of Sarries this season has been the Edinburgh games and the pack hasn't looked as powerful as you suggested. Do you know why?

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:40 pm

charltom wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:03 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:07 pm

Before I respond, are you curious in a good faith discussion over how even superb teams can be deservedly beaten or are you here just to gloat for some reason

Curious. All I've seen of Sarries this season has been the Edinburgh games and the pack hasn't looked as powerful as you suggested. Do you know why?

Didn't watch either match so no, not really. Edinburgh pack from both matches looks tasty though - Schoeman, McInally, Gilchrist, Ritchie, Mata, Nel, Skinner, and I know Crosbie's the next big thing - add in the size of Kinghorn, Bennett, DvdM and Boffelli and it's a physical side. They'd be a top tier Premiership side.

charltom wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:21 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:40 pm

charltom wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:03 pm

Curious. All I've seen of Sarries this season has been the Edinburgh games and the pack hasn't looked as powerful as you suggested. Do you know why?

Didn't watch either match so no, not really. Edinburgh pack from both matches looks tasty though - Schoeman, McInally, Gilchrist, Ritchie, Mata, Nel, Skinner, and I know Crosbie's the next big thing - add in the size of Kinghorn, Bennett, DvdM and Boffelli and it's a physical side. They'd be a top tier Premiership side.

If only they more often looked like a top tier URC side...

Dogbert wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:43 pm The Stormers who were well beaten by Glasgow - Those Stormers ?

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:09 pm The NPR Sweaties are nearly as insufferable as the PR Bogtrotters.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:23 pm

Dogbert wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:43 pm The Stormers who were well beaten by Glasgow - Those Stormers ?

Yeah, they've got a magnificent squad. Current champions, I believe? But perhaps they're actually a bunch of no hopers on account of losing a match, sport is complicated like that

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:49 pm I remember that

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:18 pm So, losing that was deeply fucking irritating.

What worked:

Picked a pack to carry, and they carried better and smarter than we've seen for a long time.
Malins' return was excellent
Chessum more than backed up his selection ahead of Ribbans
Cole made a big impact in the scrum which was the primary reason for his selection
Earl was lively off the bench, ditto Isiekwe
Dombrandt cut great lines and carried hard
Farrell put in a couple of huge hits and one really effective one that chopped down DVDM behind the line on a dangerous looking move
Ludlam looks much better at 6 than as the 7/8 we've tried him at before

What didn't:

Scrum largely struggled, lineout definitely struggled
Ben Curry didn't justify his selection ahead of Earl. Good at securing quick ball, but didn't threaten theirs and made too many errors
Farrell playing so much at 10
Farrell's goalkicking
Farrell's desire to smash Russell making him bite in on a covered player and causing heaps of issues, plus missing lots of tackles including DVDM for the second try
Dombrandt dropping a tough offload, an easy pass, and a very simple kickoff
Dombrandt, Marchant, and the others missing DVDM for first try
Mako being way off the pace when he came on
Earl giving away penalties for fun when he came on
Defensive attitude in general - even early on players were taking it easy on kick chases, not working hard enough to cover, putting in some half hearted tackles at times
Overplaying the attacking kicking game
Ben Youngs - appalling in every facet, including - excitingly - being all at sea in defence
Itoje can't justify the penalties if he's not bringing his 'A' game

On the whole I saw signs of life in that performance but the number one issue continues to be halfback options. You just can't keep picking Ben Youngs. He's dogshit. It's an absolute sham. Farrell and Smith can only work if Smith is allowed to actually play like a 10 and Farrell plays like a 12. If they're gonna play like this, just fucking pick Farrell and let Smith replace him after 60 minutes or something (it'll never happen while Farrell is captain, obviously).

I wasn't expecting a win or a sudden reversal in fortunes. Like, fuck, we're all pissed off the RFU didn't bin Eddie off a year ago, partly because we know there's so little time before the World Cup - no-one is seriously expecting us to be brilliant because we have a new coach. Seeing the same self-inflicted wounds coming from selection plus needless mistakes is deeply frustrating. Despite a more progressive selection than I expected from him, Borthwick is still after his first game suggesting he's as conservative as we feared. But there's 4 more matches to come to see how England evolve.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:54 am Should also add that Dombrandt dropping the kick off just after we’d gone 8 points up was an absolute coach killer, the kind of mistake he just doesn’t make for Quins and the kind of thing England do again and again and again. Maddening how much we struggle with the basics.

Also I must register my increasing dislike for Huw Jones and his try a game vs England antics and his good looks and his exceptionally attractive wife and-

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:15 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:54 am Should also add that Dombrandt dropping the kick off just after we’d gone 8 points up was an absolute coach killer, the kind of mistake he just doesn’t make for Quins and the kind of thing England do again and again and again. Maddening how much we struggle with the basics.

Also I must register my increasing dislike for Huw Jones and his try a game vs England antics and his good looks and his exceptionally attractive wife and-

Symptoms of our still malfunctioning set piece play. It was a terrible drop, but I am not sure he was supposed to catch it. Still not an excuse.

The lineout was garbage, too, screwed decent positions on a couple of occasions.

Real shame to yet again lose on the opening day and I think if you played that game 10 times we win 6 of them at least.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:20 am With all the respect, I'm not sure the calculus works in Farrell's favour if we're looking at what worked and what didn't for both players who got plenty of time at 10 yesterday.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:28 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:20 am With all the respect, I'm not sure the calculus works in Farrell's favour if we're looking at what worked and what didn't for both players who got plenty of time at 10 yesterday.

They don’t work together, pick one. Borthwick and Evans clearly agree with this but felt forced by circumstances. Time to bin off the experiment

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:02 am If you’ll forgive the intrusion, I think you are all being quite hard on England (who isn’t after a loss though I suppose). The general consensus on the Scotland thread and also off the board with people I’ve talked to is:
a) England dominated territory and possession and looked after the ball exceptionally well. They had excellent structured possession for many phases and played the game in the right areas of the pitch. There did seem a concerted plan by Scotland not to compete too hard at the breakdown, nevertheless England absolutely bossed it there with Scotland really struggling to even slow ball let alone steal ball
b) England won the tactical kicking battle by a mile. Given Scotland have two of the best tactical kickers in the game in Hogg and Russell, that’s not to be sniffed at
c) Scotland made very very few unforced errors. Sometimes you simply come up against a team that has a very ‘on it’ day. With the exception of the very best teams (which Scotland aren’t), that won’t happen often. 9 times out of 10 I think that performance would have been enough for England.

Generally speaking I thought England looked threatening and coherent throughout the game. Given this was a completely new coaching ticket and a totally new gameplan, there is plenty to be enthused about for England. A few games and I think this team will be motoring and a different proposition from yesterday.

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:25 pm A discussion for another day, but too many players are coming in from the Prem and looking not ready for the test arena. The spotlight needs to be on why this is….

“I’ve been frank from day one in saying there’s a lot of work to do,” Borthwick said. “When I looked at the team in the autumn, when I measured the team and got all the data for the team, we weren’t good at anything. It was as frank as that. So we are trying to build some strengths in this team and some bits we are pleased about and some bits we are disappointed about. My job is to make sure we get some improvements next week.

England head coach Steve Borthwick has delivered a damning indictment of the squad he inherited from Eddie Jones, claiming his data demonstrates they “weren’t good at anything”.

After suffering a 29-23 Calcutta Cup defeat to Scotland in his first game in charge, Borthwick said it will take time to address underlying issues following Jones' sacking in December.

England, who have lost four of their last six matches at Twickenham, will drop behind Scotland to sixth in World Rugby’s latest rankings, and Borthwick said: “We know we’ve got a lot of work to do, I’ve been frank from day one in saying there’s a lot of work to do. When I looked at the team in the autumn, when I measured the team and got all the data, we weren’t good at anything. It was as frank as that.”

Borthwick worked as an assistant coach under Jones with both Japan and England when they reached the World Cup final and were ranked as the No 1 side in the world. Yet after Borthwick departed to join Leicester following the 2020 Six Nations title triumph, England’s decline has been precipitous.

They have won just four Six Nations matches in three years, with two of those coming against Italy. Under Jones, England were in the bottom three of tier-one countries for tries scored, defenders beaten, lineout steals and tackle success.

Borthwick highlighted the scrum - where England were ranked 11th in the world last year with an 85 per cent success rate - and the breakdown as key areas where they have been left behind by other nations.

“There’s multiple areas that we have tried to change,” Borthwick said. “I think you saw some improvement in the scrum [on Saturday] which I was pleased about because it has been ranked as the worst scrum in tier one rugby. I think we saw some improvements in the attack and speed of ball and we tried to improve the breakdown where I think England were ranked the ninth quickest, so one of the slowest in tier one. I think we saw some improvement in that regard.

“I’ve asked [the players] to do some things differently and they’ve committed wholeheartedly to that over the last 11 days. We saw improvement in a lot of areas. Some areas didn’t go so well and we need to make sure we get those addressed. Some take longer than others. We are trying to rebuild the set piece here. That takes time.”

The decline of the English set piece has been acutely felt by the squad with hooker Jamie George insisting it is up to the players to bring a fear factor back to the scrum and maul.

“That's very tough and that has to change,” George said. “We're all very, very ambitious people. We want to take England rugby back to the top and we're aware it hasn't been good enough and especially in the autumn, it wasn't. Eddie took the brunt of it in terms of losing his job. But at the same time, we were the people on the field. So we have to take accountability for it, too.”

Borthwick was encouraged by England’s response to going behind in the first half to Huw Jones’ well-worked try and Duhan van der Merwe’s wonder score, with Max Malins crossing twice. Ellis Genge’s try gave England a 20-12 advantage but Ben White and Van der Merwe took advantage of some suspect defending to ensure Scotland won back-to-back wins at Twickenham for the first time. Nevertheless, Borthwick believes that England have taken a step in the right direction.

“One thing I have got to do here is get the players to believe in themselves and get the players to bring their strengths to the pitch,” Borthwick said. “Get them to play to the best of themselves, which I don’t think we have seen them do for a while. I think you saw an improvement in that regard today.

“I’d seen a habit with the team of conceding points early and not being able to respond to it. We conceded points today and the biggest thing I was looking at was the response. I thought the response was magnificent.”

Fly half Marcus Smith is among those who seemingly felt liberated by the change of backroom staff with his club coach Nick Evans on secondment from Harlequins to England.

“Being able to work with Snap [Evans] at this level is brilliant,” Smith said. “I felt myself out there. I got my hands on the ball but it just wasn’t enough. I’ll go back to the drawing board and work on it.

“We've got weapons. It's my job to try and find the best way to shoot our weapons and I'm still learning. I'll keep working on that and one day we'll get it. I think we're trying to shock ourselves as to how fast we can play, how much pressure we can put on the opposition and on ourselves to play at this speed. It's going to take time. I thought it was a much better performance than we showed in the autumn.”


Borthwick claims he was given hospital pass... the stats prove him right
Like Lord Voldemort, Eddie Jones has quickly assumed the role of he who must not be named around Twickenham.

Jones has been whitewashed from the board of media coverage inside the Twickenham press room, but an even more pointed critique of his legacy came from his successor Steve Borthwick during his post-match analysis of the 29-23 defeat to Scotland.

Not once was Jones namechecked by Borthwick but when he stated that England “weren’t good at anything” last year there is no second guessing the inference that he received a hospital pass. Even the fabled new coach bounce will only take England so far when they are working from such a low base.

The stats provided by Opta bear out Borthwick’s thesis. England were near the bottom of the pile for nearly every metric among Tier One countries in 2022, perhaps most painfully in scrum (11th) and tackle (10th) success. Behind every great England side have been a ferocious set piece and defence but somewhere along the line this got forgotten in Jones obsession with jam tomorrow.

Hooker Jamie George grimaced when mention of England’s scrum being ranked bottom among tier-one nations was put to him. “That's tough, that's tough, very, very tough and that has to change,” George said. “We're all very, very ambitious people. We want to take England rugby back to the top and we're aware that it hasn't been good enough and especially in the autumn, it wasn't.”

Of course, Borthwick was always going to draw a line in the sand with the past regime. His low Cumbrain accent was broadcast on the PA system around Twickenham before the game in a clear attempt to announce the start of a new era after the Dark Lord.

Steve Borthwick during England's warm-up - Steve Borthwick's damning verdict on Eddie Jones' England: Not good at anything
Improving England's poor scrum and tackle numbers is a key task for Borthwick CREDIT: David Rogers/Getty Images
Yet it is still striking that Borthwick was prepared to criticise the legacy bequeathed to him by his predecessor. No coach is more closely associated with Borthwick’s career than Jones, whom employed him as an assistant coach with Japan and then England. Whenever Jones needed a backer in the court of public opinion then Borthwick was always willing to mount an often lonely case for the defence.

But now that bond appears to be fraying with Borthwick also suggesting that the players lacked self-belief and confidence under Jones. “One thing I have got to do here is get the players to believe in themselves and get the players to bring their strengths to the pitch,” Borthwick said. “Get them to play to the best of themselves, which I don’t think we have seen them do for a while. I think you saw an improvement in that regard today.

“I’d seen a habit with the team of conceding points early and not being able to respond to it. We conceded points today and the biggest thing I was looking at was the response. I thought the response was magnificent.”

That response was led by Max Malins who scored a pair of first-half tries which showcased the quick ruck speed that attack coach Nick Evans had prioritised. Fly half Marcus Smith spoke of playing at a “tempo that’s a shock to us and therefore a shock to defend” and the speed of England’s play was the most striking difference in the performances from the autumn.

Smith also suggested that he felt liberated by the change of backroom staff with his club coach Evans on secondment from Harlequins to England. “Being able to work with Snap (Evans) at this level is brilliant,” Smith said. “I felt myself out there. I got my hands on the ball but it just wasn’t enough. I’ll go back to the drawing board and work on it. We've got weapons. It's my job to try and find the best way to shoot our weapons and I'm still learning. I thought it was a much better performance than we showed in the autumn.”

That pace was not always matched by accuracy. Scotland, led by two stunning scores by Duhan van der Merwe, were far more clinical with their chances in sealing back-to-back victories at Twickenham for the first time.

Of greater concern for Borthwick and new defence coach Kevin Sinfield was the number of missed tackles - 25 in all. Several of those came on Van der Merwe but both his tries came as a result of a poor kick chase. “Inexcusable” according to George.

There will be no excuses, however, when Italy come to Twickenham on Sunday with their tails up after pushing France all the way in Rome.

Simian wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:39 am Dawson makes exactly the same point in his piece on the BBC site.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:42 am

Simian wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:39 am Dawson makes exactly the same point in his piece on the BBC site.

That's devastating, might delete the post

mos_eisely_ wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:52 pm

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:25 pm A discussion for another day, but too many players are coming in from the Prem and looking not ready for the test arena. The spotlight needs to be on why this is….

I think a lot of the answer there is Eddie

el capitan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:23 am

mos_eisely_ wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:52 pm

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:25 pm A discussion for another day, but too many players are coming in from the Prem and looking not ready for the test arena. The spotlight needs to be on why this is….

I think a lot of the answer there is Eddie

Totally accept that the regime & environment they were coming into was a massive factor and an inhibitor, but it goes way beyond that for me.

Just seems the last few years that the players we tout for "pace" or "power" come in and look bang average at these USP's. Of course test rugby is going to be a step up and a player is going to need time to find his feet, but from what I watch those who do come in don't really exhibit outstanding attributes and find it a shock to get to the required intensity and precision/consistency/error-free demands of performance.

Bedford are my team so I comment on the Prem as an outside observer. Whilst it's a competitive, close, entertaining league I'd question if it's great quality - Euro results across the board are hardly great are they - and does the development job in equipping players with the skills and standards for the top level.