NPR

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:03 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:58 pm ..........and then there were none at Tigers!

England have raided the Leicester Tigers coaching set-up again with Richard Wigglesworth and Aled Walters to join Steve Borthwick’s management team ahead of the World Cup.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-sta ... worth/

Cheika and Cotter being linked with the vacant Tigers DoR role!!!

dpedin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:22 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:42 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:22 pm

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

The lineout issues are more than George's fault - two new jumpers and an out of sorts Itoje don't help - and he's usually a solid performer so he's not one for culling.

But I'd agree that we needed to have blooded many more youngsters than we have.

There are some mitigations in the here-and-now for Borthwick, Cole was in as we're a bit light at TH with injuries to Stuart, Heyes doesn't quite look there yet, and Harry Williams has disappeared off the face of the Earth England-wise (and he's not the only one). At LH I've no real idea if Marler is still an England player, although Rodd should be ahead of Mako.

I get the 'needs must' argument but after the 6Ns there is precious little opportunity to establish new players into the team before the 6Ns. Interestingly one of the relative newcomers - Chessum - was your best player in the pack. I completely agree about Rodd who is a solid scrummager and is also useful around the park as well, always wins a few turnovers. Can't understand playing George who struggled throughout the game and perhaps was still suffering from head knock and lack of games? Perhaps some of these older guys were on their last chance ie show me what you've got, from Borthwick?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:40 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:22 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:42 pm

The lineout issues are more than George's fault - two new jumpers and an out of sorts Itoje don't help - and he's usually a solid performer so he's not one for culling.

But I'd agree that we needed to have blooded many more youngsters than we have.

There are some mitigations in the here-and-now for Borthwick, Cole was in as we're a bit light at TH with injuries to Stuart, Heyes doesn't quite look there yet, and Harry Williams has disappeared off the face of the Earth England-wise (and he's not the only one). At LH I've no real idea if Marler is still an England player, although Rodd should be ahead of Mako.

I get the 'needs must' argument but after the 6Ns there is precious little opportunity to establish new players into the team before the 6Ns. Interestingly one of the relative newcomers - Chessum - was your best player in the pack. I completely agree about Rodd who is a solid scrummager and is also useful around the park as well, always wins a few turnovers. Can't understand playing George who struggled throughout the game and perhaps was still suffering from head knock and lack of games? Perhaps some of these older guys were on their last chance ie show me what you've got, from Borthwick?

There's a lot of truth in what you're saying but George has been (IMO) our best hooker for years, still is and his replacement is probably somewhere between 5 and 7 on our national 'depth chart'. It was the right call to play him. Borthwick has to make the best of a shitty situation, exacerbated by injuries and the agreement between the RFU and the clubs as to how many changes he can make to the squad. Let's not forget this was a 50/50 game, decided by a late score, that we put ourselves in a position to nick back with the last play. His strategy, despite the injuries and the damage of Jones' last year, very nearly paid off and we'd have had a week of nauseating 'the man's a genius' articles.

dpedin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:22 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:42 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:22 pm

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

The lineout issues are more than George's fault - two new jumpers and an out of sorts Itoje don't help - and he's usually a solid performer so he's not one for culling.

But I'd agree that we needed to have blooded many more youngsters than we have.

There are some mitigations in the here-and-now for Borthwick, Cole was in as we're a bit light at TH with injuries to Stuart, Heyes doesn't quite look there yet, and Harry Williams has disappeared off the face of the Earth England-wise (and he's not the only one). At LH I've no real idea if Marler is still an England player, although Rodd should be ahead of Mako.

I get the 'needs must' argument but after the 6Ns there is precious little opportunity to establish new players into the team before the 6Ns. Interestingly one of the relative newcomers - Chessum - was your best player in the pack. I completely agree about Rodd who is a solid scrummager and is also useful around the park as well, always wins a few turnovers. Can't understand playing George who struggled throughout the game and perhaps was still suffering from head knock and lack of games? Perhaps some of these older guys were on their last chance ie show me what you've got, from Borthwick?

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:22 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:12 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:07 pm

Of whom? You'd think with a change of coaching staff, any inexplicable reason that Jones had for selecting the non selectable had fallen away. Just WTF does anyone in the Eng set up think Youngs offers?

They're clearly shitscared of going into a world cup with JVP as the most experienced scrum half. Our most experienced ever player coming off the bench and being a critical factor in blowing a lead seems to pale in comparison.

With that said, Borthwick has been pretty bold thus far so I wouldn't be shocked to see him give Mitchell a go.

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:41 pm Actually, the one reason I can see for retaining Youngs is familiarity on Borthwick's part, having worked with him at Leicester and in earlier England coaching.

Still should pick JVP to start and Mitchell on the Bench against Italy, though.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:10 pm There aren't many, buy what's your definition of playing in the Premiership, because there's more than one.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:27 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:10 pm There aren't many, buy what's your definition of playing in the Premiership, because there's more than one.

Ok, technically it's none as Kelly is also injured.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:09 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:22 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:12 pm

They're clearly shitscared of going into a world cup with JVP as the most experienced scrum half. Our most experienced ever player coming off the bench and being a critical factor in blowing a lead seems to pale in comparison.

With that said, Borthwick has been pretty bold thus far so I wouldn't be shocked to see him give Mitchell a go.

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

Both the Scottish centres were poaches. One of them is English.

England has just one EQP 12 playing in the Premiership. ONE.

Time for the RFU to get the SRU Ancestry.com login and start poaching some inside-centres.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:56 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:09 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:22 pm

As a Scot I dont just get the need to keep playing Youngs at the expense of other young and promising SHs. OK they perhaps are young and inexperienced but they need to be given a few games to develop and learn at international level. More generally I can't understand the sticking with the Smith-Farrell axis and the likes of Vunipola and Cole at prop, George at hooker etc.

England need to pick either Farrell or Smith at 10 and play a game that suits them, build a team around them and then pick real centres at 12-13. I know there were some injuries to potential centres ie Porter and Kelly, but surely there are other options available? Farrell just spent all his time trying to hit Russell and Marchant, who is not the best defender at the best of times, ended up left in no mans land defensively as a result.

Vunipola, George and Coles are all yesterdays men and Vunipola can't scrummage now, George's arrows were so bad he ended up throwing to the front for the whole game, Cole hasn't the legs for international rugby now. You have some excellent young guys who need to be exposed and developed at international level and I would have thought the 6Ns would have been the time in the run up to the RWC? It won't work out for them all but its not working for the old guys now so surely worth a punt?

Both the Scottish centres were poaches. One of them is English.

England has just one EQP 12 playing in the Premiership. ONE.

Time for the RFU to get the SRU Ancestry.com login and start poaching some inside-centres.

Edinburgh born Huw Jones was a poach? The eligibility rules are very confusing these days.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:49 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:27 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:10 pm There aren't many, buy what's your definition of playing in the Premiership, because there's more than one.

Ok, technically it's none as Kelly is also injured.

There might not be any you think could play internationally, but there are several besides Kelly.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:12 pm The lack of quality English inside centres is a bit weird. We have any number of 13s, either Test quality or potentials, but the 12 shirt seems to rely of late on Farrell or Slade, both out of position, or permacrock Tuilagi, who also played a good chunk of his career at 13.

Although given that Farrell has played most of his Test career, and certainly his best Test rugby at 12, one could argue that this us his position for England.

Still, any of them are better than Jamie Noon or Ricky Flutey.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:07 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:49 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:27 pm
Ok, technically it's none as Kelly is also injured.

There might not be any you think could play internationally, but there are several besides Kelly.

Well yes, including me if you go far enough down the list.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:53 pm Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

Niegs wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:45 pm Sale seem to be stocking up on 12s of note... I wondered where Ryan Mills (as much a sicknote as Tuilagi?) went and see he's there, forgot Sam Hill moved there a while back too. Who'd left, I presume, because Devoto was the man at Chiefs?

Were people not talking up Max Ojomoh as potential England quality?

Being a bit cynical on the way everyone plays the same (seems to), I wonder if having forwards doing all the carrying in the midfield, and the alternative being a quick out-the-back play wide, I wonder if many can't be bothered with a big lug inside centre, instead going for the smaller one who's more of a traditional 2nd5/8?

Niegs wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:45 pm Sale seem to be stocking up on 12s of note... I wondered where Ryan Mills (as much a sicknote as Tuilagi?) went and see he's there, forgot Sam Hill moved there a while back too. Who'd left, I presume, because Devoto was the man at Chiefs?

Were people not talking up Max Ojomoh as potential England quality?

Being a bit cynical on the way everyone plays the same (seems to), I wonder if having forwards doing all the carrying in the midfield, and the alternative being a quick out-the-back play wide, I wonder if many can't be bothered with a big lug inside centre, instead going for the smaller one who's more of a traditional 2nd5/8?

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:53 pm Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:13 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:53 pm Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

Full list of those cut - Curry, Heyes, Hill, Rodd, Simmonds, Watson, Youngs

Fingers crossed for Willis to survive the next cull.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:13 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:53 pm Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

Full list of those cut - Curry, Heyes, Hill, Rodd, Simmonds, Watson, Youngs

Fingers crossed for Willis to survive the next cull.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:13 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:53 pm Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

Full list of those cut - Curry, Heyes, Hill, Rodd, Simmonds, Watson, Youngs

Fingers crossed for Willis to survive the next cull.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:53 pm Holy fuck, Ben Youngs not retained for the 29 man squad for Italy!

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:35 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:07 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:49 pm

There might not be any you think could play internationally, but there are several besides Kelly.

Well yes, including me if you go far enough down the list.

I wasn't proposing going any further down the depth chart than the Premiership.

In addition to Kelly there's Dingwall, O'Connor, Ojomoh, Porter, Lozowski, S. Atkinson, M. Atkinson, Anyanwu, Tuilagi, Northmore, Devoto. Probably others I've missed.

Given the vagaries of injury, form and availability of other players in their respective teams, not all are playing 12 week in week out, but there are options there if we want to use them.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:59 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:35 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:07 pm

Well yes, including me if you go far enough down the list.

I wasn't proposing going any further down the depth chart than the Premiership.

In addition to Kelly there's Dingwall, O'Connor, Ojomoh, Porter, Lozowski, S. Atkinson, M. Atkinson, Anyanwu, Tuilagi, Northmore, Devoto. Probably others I've missed.

Given the vagaries of injury, form and availability of other players in their respective teams, not all are playing 12 week in week out, but there are options there if we want to use them.

Don't forget all the academy players and England u16s, the 12s, 13s and probably the backrowers in those teams will all be better options than Farrell as well.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:07 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:59 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:35 pm

I wasn't proposing going any further down the depth chart than the Premiership.

In addition to Kelly there's Dingwall, O'Connor, Ojomoh, Porter, Lozowski, S. Atkinson, M. Atkinson, Anyanwu, Tuilagi, Northmore, Devoto. Probably others I've missed.

Given the vagaries of injury, form and availability of other players in their respective teams, not all are playing 12 week in week out, but there are options there if we want to use them.

Don't forget all the academy players and England u16s, the 12s, 13s and probably the backrowers in those teams will all be better options than Farrell as well.

Maybe I missed something, but the conversational thread I was picking up on was essentially 'who are England's other 12 options?' not 'who is or could possibly be a better 12 for England than Farrell?'. Which is a question that's entirely reliant on what else is going on in selection anyway. If Smith's at 10 and Marchant or another quick, but not physically imposing strike runner, is at 13, then someone like Porter may actually be a player who better completes the midfield while still not necessarily being a better player than Farrell. Similarly if Farrell were at 10, you'd be looking at which players provide the most complementary midfield trio rather than who are the best players outright.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:25 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:07 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:59 pm




Don't forget all the academy players and England u16s, the 12s, 13s and probably the backrowers in those teams will all be better options than Farrell as well.

Maybe I missed something, but the conversational thread I was picking up on was essentially 'who are England's other 12 options?' not 'who is or could possibly be a better 12 for England than Farrell?'. Which is a question that's entirely reliant on what else is going on in selection anyway. If Smith's at 10 and Marchant or another quick, but not physically imposing strike runner, is at 13, then someone like Porter may actually be a player who better completes the midfield while still not necessarily being a better player than Farrell. Similarly if Farrell were at 10, you'd be looking at which players provide the most complementary midfield trio rather than who are the best players outright.

There's a lot of bad faith arguments when it comes to Farrell. #ABF is the narrative sometimes, it's ridiculous.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:39 pm Hearing Youngs and Curry out of match squad for Italy
No confirmation yet

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:43 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:39 pm Hearing Youngs and Curry out of match squad for Italy
No confirmation yet

Yep
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/young ... -36-to-29/

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:45 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:43 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:39 pm Hearing Youngs and Curry out of match squad for Italy
No confirmation yet

Yep
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/young ... -36-to-29/

And of course, the fact it was posted a while back and mentioned on the thread before that

Excited to see Willis again, Ludlam impressed me on Sat. Wonder if we'll try for a bigger 6, seeing as our lineout wasn't great.