NPR

Raggs wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:44 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:13 pm Enjoying this game but not nice contemplating we have to play them both stil.

We don't beat either on last games showing. The nice thing is that Italy is now a worthwhile challenge to gauge ourselves on to at least some degree.

Think we could upset France at Twickenham

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 4:05 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:44 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:13 pm Enjoying this game but not nice contemplating we have to play them both stil.

We don't beat either on last games showing. The nice thing is that Italy is now a worthwhile challenge to gauge ourselves on to at least some degree.

Think we could upset France at Twickenham

On current showings, only way we'll upset the French is if we make jokes about the German occupation.

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 4:17 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 4:05 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:44 pm

We don't beat either on last games showing. The nice thing is that Italy is now a worthwhile challenge to gauge ourselves on to at least some degree.

Think we could upset France at Twickenham

On current showings, only way we'll upset the French is if we make jokes about the German occupation.

Throw in a couple of choice remarks about the superiority of cheddar to camembert and we may throw them sufficiently off balance to sneak it.

Ireland look light years ahead of us.

Jeez, Ireland are light years ahead of our England team - and that's with a few of their top stars out injured

We've got so much ground to make up on them (and France). Can't see anything Borthers can do to, realistically, bridge that sort of gap this year. I think we may have to settle for just not getting totally embarrassed when we play them and put it down to a learning experience.

It was the players attitude to risk - from both teams - that is the most marked difference to the English. England simply can't play like that because they wouldn't dare to do it. Italy have actually made the step to accept more risk into their play that England will have to do as well if they are to move forward as an effective team. Nothing exemplifies this more starkly than the differences in skillset and speed between Capuozzo and Steward.

I see someone's found his new Mike Brown.

I'm vaguely hopeful we can beat the welshists, but not convinced.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:18 pm I see someone's found his new Mike Brown.

I've been consistent since his debut. Steward isn't quick enough to be a top test 15. He's great under the high ball which is very visual but outside of that his contributions are not very dynamic.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:27 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:18 pm I see someone's found his new Mike Brown.

I've been consistent since his debut. Steward isn't quick enough to be a top test 15. He's great under the high ball which is very visual but outside of that his contributions are not very dynamic.

who do you prefer at 15?

spike wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:37 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:27 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:18 pm I see someone's found his new Mike Brown.

I've been consistent since his debut. Steward isn't quick enough to be a top test 15. He's great under the high ball which is very visual but outside of that his contributions are not very dynamic.

who do you prefer at 15?

Maybe Marcus Smith could play there? Arundell is an option of course.

The point is that ambitious teams need a fullback with pace and the ability to create. Steward is a fine player but he has a very low performance ceiling.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:50 pm

spike wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:37 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:27 pm



I've been consistent since his debut. Steward isn't quick enough to be a top test 15. He's great under the high ball which is very visual but outside of that his contributions are not very dynamic.

who do you prefer at 15?

Maybe Marcus Smith could play there? Arundell is an option of course.

The point is that ambitious teams need a fullback with pace and the ability to create. Steward is a fine player but he has a very low performance ceiling.

Seems unfair to say he's got a low performance ceiling when he's only 22. He needs to get into attacking positions and link more, but I don't see why he cant do that. Being good in the air is just as valid an attacking as anything else. Not sure about Smith at 15, he's got pace and kicking ability but has he ever played there?

Alternative fullbacks are Malins, Freeman and Arundell. That's plenty for now. If someone else emerges who plays the position regularly for his club then we can have a look at them.

We should never have situations as we had under Eddie where the plan was to put a complete non-specialist like Slade back there. Playing Smith at 15 would be in line with that. It's unnecessary and doesn't make best use either of the player selected or whichever player they've been selected ahead of/

spike wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:59 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:50 pm

spike wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:37 pm

who do you prefer at 15?

Maybe Marcus Smith could play there? Arundell is an option of course.

The point is that ambitious teams need a fullback with pace and the ability to create. Steward is a fine player but he has a very low performance ceiling.

Seems unfair to say he's got a low performance ceiling when he's only 22. He needs to get into attacking positions and link more, but I don't see why he cant do that. Being good in the air is just as valid an attacking as anything else. Not sure about Smith at 15, he's got pace and kicking ability but has he ever played there?

Steward isn't quick enough and he isn't going to get any faster. He doesn't really move like a back - he kind of runs like a big backrower. Look, I could be wrong - this is just honest opinions on a message board but I just don't get the hype with Steward at all and I've thought it from day-1. That doesn't mean I think he's a bad player or a terrible person, I just don't think he will (ever) offer a very hard to defend threat from fullback and I am yet to see him do anything creative.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:14 pm Alternative fullbacks are Malins, Freeman and Arundell. That's plenty for now. If someone else emerges who plays the position regularly for his club then we can have a look at them.

We should never have situations as we had under Eddie where the plan was to put a complete non-specialist like Slade back there. Playing Smith at 15 would be in line with that. It's unnecessary and doesn't make best use either of the player selected or whichever player they've been selected ahead of/

Smith could play at 15 just like flyhalves have done for generations. Beauden Barrett, Alex Goode, Nick Evans, Jimmy Gopperth, Mike Catt, Kurtley Beale, Matt Giteau etc. Malins as mentioned can do both. It would certainly make Smith a more useful number 22 if he could play 15.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:22 pm

spike wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:59 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:50 pm



Maybe Marcus Smith could play there? Arundell is an option of course.

The point is that ambitious teams need a fullback with pace and the ability to create. Steward is a fine player but he has a very low performance ceiling.

Seems unfair to say he's got a low performance ceiling when he's only 22. He needs to get into attacking positions and link more, but I don't see why he cant do that. Being good in the air is just as valid an attacking as anything else. Not sure about Smith at 15, he's got pace and kicking ability but has he ever played there?

Steward isn't quick enough and he isn't going to get any faster. He doesn't really move like a back - he kind of runs like a big backrower. Look, I could be wrong - this is just honest opinions on a message board but I just don't get the hype with Steward at all and I've thought it from day-1. That doesn't mean I think he's a bad player or a terrible person, I just don't think he will (ever) offer a very hard to defend threat from fullback and I am yet to see him do anything creative.

He's got a decent strike rate - 6 tries in 18 matches. He certainly isn't quick but he's quite tough to tackle near the try line. I suspect that Arundell could end up there - but we need to see something from OHC against Italy, if he isn't going to be the one to make way for Arundell.

Tommy Freeman could be Steward but with pace, it looked like fullback was going to be his position when he broke through but he often gets shunted out to the wing now to accommodate Furbank. Him at FB with a couple of quick wings could be glorious.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:32 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:14 pm Alternative fullbacks are Malins, Freeman and Arundell. That's plenty for now. If someone else emerges who plays the position regularly for his club then we can have a look at them.

We should never have situations as we had under Eddie where the plan was to put a complete non-specialist like Slade back there. Playing Smith at 15 would be in line with that. It's unnecessary and doesn't make best use either of the player selected or whichever player they've been selected ahead of/

Smith could play at 15 just like flyhalves have done for generations. Beauden Barrett, Alex Goode, Nick Evans, Jimmy Gopperth, Mike Catt, Kurtley Beale, Matt Giteau etc. Malins as mentioned can do both. It would certainly make Smith a more useful number 22 if he could play 15.

He could, he's a talented kid, but there's just no need. It only makes sense to do something like that if you don't have any particularly worthwhile 15s. Even if you don't particularly rate Steward, we've got others to try out before playing Smith there is a good idea. On top of which, he'd be learning from scratch (which went oh so well with Daly...). Players like Barrett, Giteau and Beale were utility players from very early on their careers.

Must say I can't recally Gopperth playing 15 often enough for him to be included in this discussion. Certainly not in the last decade or so.

Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:13 pm Tommy Freeman could be Steward but with pace, it looked like fullback was going to be his position when he broke through but he often gets shunted out to the wing now to accommodate Furbank. Him at FB with a couple of quick wings could be glorious.

Back in 2015, Slade made his debut alongside Sam Burgess and can count 11 different centre partnerships in 36 Test starts: Burgess, Elliot Daly, Jonathan Joseph, Kelly, Farrell, Piers Francis, Lawrence, Alex Lozowski, Joe Marchant, Ben Te’o, Tuilagi. That encapsulates England’s midfield merry-go-round starkly.

Bloody hell!

Telegraph article on Ollie Lawrence.

https://archive.ph/cgMlg

Sam Burgess at centre, I struggle to think of a more moronic selection.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:33 pm

Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:13 pm Tommy Freeman could be Steward but with pace, it looked like fullback was going to be his position when he broke through but he often gets shunted out to the wing now to accommodate Furbank. Him at FB with a couple of quick wings could be glorious.

Nope, Arundell is the future

ASMO wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:57 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:33 pm

Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:13 pm Tommy Freeman could be Steward but with pace, it looked like fullback was going to be his position when he broke through but he often gets shunted out to the wing now to accommodate Furbank. Him at FB with a couple of quick wings could be glorious.

Nope, Arundell is the future

I want him to get a full season of starting in the Prem under his belt before we annoint him.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:00 am

ASMO wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:57 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:33 pm

Nope, Arundell is the future

I want him to get a full season of starting in the Prem under his belt before we annoint him.

I hope to see on at FB today, although more likely will be on for OHC.

ASMO wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:57 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:33 pm

Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:13 pm Tommy Freeman could be Steward but with pace, it looked like fullback was going to be his position when he broke through but he often gets shunted out to the wing now to accommodate Furbank. Him at FB with a couple of quick wings could be glorious.

Nope, Arundell is the future

Possibly, though he would be one of my wings if Freeman was at fullback. Freeman isn't really a wing but is also too good not to be around the side.

Loving how Steward is already old news and needs replacing. Australia literally had to change their gameplan because of him. He's not the fastest, but he's a massive lump who's positioning seems superb and he's scary in the air. Wingers spend a lot of time in the backfield as well.

Steward isn’t quick but his try scoring record is remarkable, particularly given how little rugby we’ve played during his time in the side.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:49 am Steward isn’t quick but his try scoring record is remarkable, particularly given how little rugby we’ve played during his time in the side.

Yep, don't get them by chance either, his bulk has assisted with a fair few.

Just read the ball in play time for Ireland France was 46 minutes and 10 seconds. That's incredible, I can't see England's fitness surviving that, especially not Mako and Cole.

I think it's only Toga who is desperate to see Steward replaced, everybody else is just postulating about viable alternatives.

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:51 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:49 am Steward isn’t quick but his try scoring record is remarkable, particularly given how little rugby we’ve played during his time in the side.

Yep, don't get them by chance either, his bulk has assisted with a fair few.

Just read the ball in play time for Ireland France was 46 minutes and 10 seconds. That's incredible, I can't see England's fitness surviving that, especially not Mako and Cole.

My frustration watching that game is how Ireland’s basic skills and intensity are so much higher than ours. We don’t lack talented players or grafters but as so often there’s another team setting standards we can’t meet.

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:47 am Loving how Steward is already old news and needs replacing. Australia literally had to change their gameplan because of him. He's not the fastest, but he's a massive lump who's positioning seems superb and he's scary in the air. Wingers spend a lot of time in the backfield as well.

Send him to Margo Wells. If she can’t do anything for his running technique she’ll still scare him into running faster.

Oxbow wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:52 am I think it's only Toga who is desperate to see Steward replaced, everybody else is just postulating about viable alternatives.

Yep - We've got lots to improve on before Steward becomes anywhere near the top of the issues list. And I think we can still get a lot more out of him in attack - he's very good near the line where he really takes some stopping.

Ovals wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:02 pm

Oxbow wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:52 am I think it's only Toga who is desperate to see Steward replaced, everybody else is just postulating about viable alternatives.

Yep - We've got lots to improve on before Steward becomes anywhere near the top of the issues list. And I think we can still get a lot more out of him in attack - he's very good near the line where he really takes some stopping.

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying - I've said often, including in this thread, that Steward is a fine player. He even executes a skill to a very high standard, nearly as well as the Irish fullback does it. However, he's a fullback who can't run very quickly. That's as fundamentally out of sorts as saying a 6'2" lock is a brilliant scrummager or an 85kg prop is good at lifting in the lineout. What's missing just can't be ignored - it will manifest itself as a problem sooner or later.

Woodward writing in his DM article wrote this line;

Borthwick has drawn a line in the sand by opting for Farrell. I can pay him no higher compliment than to say that's exactly what I would have done.

Made me laugh

Yeah I noticed that the other day and just rolled my eyes to myself. It's like he has no self-awareness.

Just hope they dont present us the wooden spoon after Big Bruv has used it.

Big Bruv using it would be too good for them. It should have been up the tuck hole of an aids ridden haemaphiliac tramp with dysentery.

Tried to get through the match thread, couldn't handle the "neutrals".

Can someone tell Farrell he can pass the ball too.

The match thread is practically unreadable, really improved by the influx of PR regulars