NPR

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:11 pm Johnny Hill's looking more and more normal (relatively speaking) the longer he spends up North. Sorted out his shit facial hair and now growing the stuff on his head out just a touch and sans mullet.

What minute will Sale first go down to 14 men?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:33 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:11 pm Johnny Hill's looking more and more normal (relatively speaking) the longer he spends up North. Sorted out his shit facial hair and now growing the stuff on his head out just a touch and sans mullet.

What minute will Sale first go down to 14 men?

They remarkably made it 24 minutes in, but have now made amends by shipping two yellows in two minutes.

Incidentally post match pub discussion yesterday turned to naming an all time England ‘Cunt XV’, Hill was one of the first names on the teamsheet

At international level it feels like he thinks it need to be all about him, the captaincy probably adds a huge amount to that, and the years of having smoke blown up his arse about being a world class 10 despite his deeply inconsistent performances in that shirt for England can't have helped him remain humble.

Joost wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:02 pm Interesting theory about Farrell from JCM and agree with most of that, but this really doesn’t ring true to me:

At international level it feels like he thinks it need to be all about him, the captaincy probably adds a huge amount to that, and the years of having smoke blown up his arse about being a world class 10 despite his deeply inconsistent performances in that shirt for England can't have helped him remain humble.

Almost everything you hear from fellow players and coaches who have worked with him is that he’s all about the team and he certainly doesn’t seem to relish the limelight or want to be a ‘personality’. I reckon if the coaches told him he’s no longer the playmaking and his jjob was to play 12 and bash it up/straighten the line, fix players and pass he’d absolutely do it to the best of his ability.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:11 pm What I really want is not for the coaches to demand he does that. I want a Farrell that recognises it's needed. The best players adapt before they're told to.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:21 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:11 pm What I really want is not for the coaches to demand he does that. I want a Farrell that recognises it's needed. The best players adapt before they're told to.

Good luck with that. In the modern game, that's very unlikely since the players are coached to within an inch of their lives not to think for themselves. And those that do are generally shunned for their "maverick" (seen as a liability) status. Think Townsend-Flake, Galthie-Jalibert, Eng-anyone other than Farrell.

The only place I regularly see players given that licence is NPC/ITM.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:56 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:04 pm Some of these English and Welsh fellas on here get a bit nippy if you say they played a shit game, don’t they?

Pleasing to see any pretence that arrogance and condescension is a particularly English trait being fucked straight into a bin the minute Scotland wins two consecutive 6N matches.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:11 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:04 pm Some of these English and Welsh fellas on here get a bit nippy if you say they played a shit game, don’t they?

How about you get the fuck out of our thread if you're just going to be a prick?

It's more the supercilious tone of supporters of a team who are 0 in 5 against the likes of Ireland, South Africa and New Zealand that rankles.

Joost wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:49 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:21 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:11 pm What I really want is not for the coaches to demand he does that. I want a Farrell that recognises it's needed. The best players adapt before they're told to.

Good luck with that. In the modern game, that's very unlikely since the players are coached to within an inch of their lives not to think for themselves. And those that do are generally shunned for their "maverick" (seen as a liability) status. Think Townsend-Flake, Galthie-Jalibert, Eng-anyone other than Farrell.

The only place I regularly see players given that licence is NPC/ITM.

I think it’s a bit unrealistic to expect Farrell to independently take a back seat when he’s been made captain and given the game management role by the coaching staff - that’s not ego, it’s doing the role that he’s been assigned (reckon he’d always do the role he’s given, whatever it was - that’s why coaches love him so much).

Problem is he’s badly out of form at present, making bad decisions in attack and not kicking goals (two of the main points he’s picked for) - Borthers needs to make a call on that at some point, unless he has a big game against France - something that you wouldn’t rule out - the man is a competitor, whatever limitations he has.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:07 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:11 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:04 pm Some of these English and Welsh fellas on here get a bit nippy if you say they played a shit game, don’t they?

How about you get the fuck out of our thread if you're just going to be a prick?

It's more the supercilious tone of supporters of a team who are 0 in 5 against the likes of Ireland, South Africa and New Zealand that rankles.

Thought I was in the six nations thread, sorry about that. I’m more into winding up the Welshnif I’m absolutely honest.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:05 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:56 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:04 pm Some of these English and Welsh fellas on here get a bit nippy if you say they played a shit game, don’t they?

Pleasing to see any pretence that arrogance and condescension is a particularly English trait being fucked straight into a bin the minute Scotland wins two consecutive 6N matches.

Guys, apologies, I thought I’d posted that in the general 6Nations thread, not your national one.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:07 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:11 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:04 pm Some of these English and Welsh fellas on here get a bit nippy if you say they played a shit game, don’t they?

How about you get the fuck out of our thread if you're just going to be a prick?

It's more the supercilious tone of supporters of a team who are 0 in 5 against the likes of Ireland, South Africa and New Zealand that rankles.

Thought I was in the six nations thread, sorry about that. I’m more into winding up the Welshnif I’m absolutely honest.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:58 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:07 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:11 pm

How about you get the fuck out of our thread if you're just going to be a prick?

It's more the supercilious tone of supporters of a team who are 0 in 5 against the likes of Ireland, South Africa and New Zealand that rankles.

Thought I was in the six nations thread, sorry about that. I’m more into winding up the Welshnif I’m absolutely honest.

That's an act for the dedicated in this place, we've got, what, Gog and C69? Gog doesn't deserve to be wound up, he's a sound fella.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:06 pm The Welsh and the English being nice to each other. It’s the end times.

inactionman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:10 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:06 pm The Welsh and the English being nice to each other. It’s the end times.

Putting the boot in would feel too cruel at this current time.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:01 pm Plenty of evidence that France are very touchable in the three games so far, though we’ll have to put a lot more pace into the game than we have so far.

Any idea if we made any effort to keep Huw Jones? One of the more underrated players put there IMO

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:01 pm Plenty of evidence that France are very touchable in the three games so far, though we’ll have to put a lot more pace into the game than we have so far.

Any idea if we made any effort to keep Huw Jones? One of the more underrated players put there IMO

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:23 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:10 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:06 pm The Welsh and the English being nice to each other. It’s the end times.

Putting the boot in would feel too cruel at this current time.

To be fair there’s a 50 50 chance you’d both miss.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:01 pm Plenty of evidence that France are very touchable in the three games so far, though we’ll have to put a lot more pace into the game than we have so far.

Any idea if we made any effort to keep Huw Jones? One of the more underrated players put there IMO

Joost wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:49 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:01 pm Plenty of evidence that France are very touchable in the three games so far, though we’ll have to put a lot more pace into the game than we have so far.

Any idea if we made any effort to keep Huw Jones? One of the more underrated players put there IMO

More interested in if we tried to keep Ben White, he’s been excellent.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:23 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:10 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:06 pm The Welsh and the English being nice to each other. It’s the end times.

Putting the boot in would feel too cruel at this current time.

To be fair there’s a 50 50 chance you’d both miss.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:42 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:01 pm Plenty of evidence that France are very touchable in the three games so far, though we’ll have to put a lot more pace into the game than we have so far.

Any idea if we made any effort to keep Huw Jones? One of the more underrated players put there IMO

I seem to remember the Quins fans describing him as somewhere between utter shite and handicapped when he played for them.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:15 pm Just rewatched the game. Some thoughts:
- What was Wales' gameplan? Just constant kicking to Steward and then hope something turned up. Bizarre but I suppose in Zammit's try it kind of worked.

- If we accept the framing of rebuilding/developing a team, there is clear progress over three games. Wales are toothless, as a caveat, however the defensive system starts to look pretty well oiled. Clearly designed to bend but not break, with huge emphasis on contesting the breakdown. The back row were obviously front and centre of that but just about everyone close to a ruck was hitting the ruck hard and trying to get hands on the ball. We won tonnes of turnovers and a few pens, but it also completely gummed up Welsh ball every time they attacked, meaning Wales then tried to hit a well formed defensive set and ended up either losing the ball or kicking it away. England's workrate in defence was pretty phenomenal and the whole thing seems joined up in a way it absolutely was not against Scotland.

- Less well oiled was the attack, albeit you can start to see Evans' mark on it. The team seems caught between a dynamic attacking philosophy that Evans embodies, the percentages rugby of Borthwick which dictates that slow ball goes to the boot, and the Sinfield philosophy that attack is simply defence by other means. This meant we hesitated at a few key points where other sides would have broken through and quite possibly scored. You can see everyone not quite sure whether to run an attacking line or get in position to chase a kick, making the whole thing a little tentative. With that said, the Watson try was an excellent team try involving a well designed play excellently executed by quite a wide cast of characters, and represents the best strike move we've run since the win over the Boks in November '21.

This clash between kicking and running means that whereas in defence we were wonderfully cohesive and coordinated, in attack often going forward meant people were isolated and either lost the ball, conceded a penalty or it became a mess. A few nascent opportunities got shut down in positions where Ireland, France and Scotland would have at least got within 5 metres of the line in the subsequent phases.
This split-second decision making attacking style does not suit a process and system fly half like Farrell, and the answer of who runs this sort of game best is pretty obvious - George Ford. It was noticeable that Faz was at his best in attack working in conjunction with Malins, who obviously train together all the time.

- Our tactical kicking was very good, certainly not faultless (both Faz and JVP stuck one out on the full, Slade and Faz kicked away an overlap each) but it left us playing the game we wanted to in the areas of the pitch we needed to. One of the reasons it wasn't the most exciting game ever played is because we saw clearly we were going to win the kicking battle hands down. Steward took everything, every kick was returned with interest and 1/2p/Zammit etc were on the back foot, smashed straight after taking the ball and unable to generate a reply. Not Baabaas stuff but ten minutes could go by without Wales even hinting at an opportunity, which away in Cardiff you'd take every day.

- Goal kicking cost us a bonus point IMO. If we'd nailed the penalty to go 18-10 up I think we'd have then moved through the gears. As it was we played it safe to close out Borthwick's first "proper" win. Italy deserve better than that perspective but it 100% will have been preying on all their minds that lose yesterday and we're staring down the barrel of a 1 win tournament, the decision to stick to winning the tactical kicking battle was understandable.

- Our discipline is night and day to Eddie's era, I noticed the silly one in our own half for three points as the only egregious pen. Makes a huge difference

- Compete at lineouts! When Maro did go up the Welsh lineout disintegrated, at the very least it throws the opposition and you make a barely discernible gain at a maul from not competing.

Overall, I remain reasonably satisfied. The defensive system is clicking, and hopefully another fortnight of drilling it will have it ready for the ferocious challenge France will pose to it. The attack shows promise but is the wrong system for the 10 we have, either change the system or change the 10. Given his goal kicking post-ankle injuries I'd opt for the latter sadly, if we're going to compete in the final two games we have to kick everything, and with the world cup in mind it will likely light a fairly serious fire under his arse.
Bar making Faz captain, Borthwick is nailing the selection calls, Watson another example. I hope he has the courage to stick with Ludlam/Willis/Dombrandt as it is starting to work superbly.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:01 pm Plenty of evidence that France are very touchable in the three games so far, though we’ll have to put a lot more pace into the game than we have so far.

Any idea if we made any effort to keep Huw Jones? One of the more underrated players put there IMO

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:50 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:01 pm Plenty of evidence that France are very touchable in the three games so far, though we’ll have to put a lot more pace into the game than we have so far.

Any idea if we made any effort to keep Huw Jones? One of the more underrated players put there IMO

He has had a very interesting rugby background but although he would qualify through England by residency I don't think he ever considered it. Born in Edinburgh then went to Millfield. He wasn't considered a very good player at school and after finishing went out to South Africa in his gap year where he started playing local rugby then just seemingly shot up the ladder and 3 years later scored 2 tries and won MoM for Western Province as they won the Currie Cup.

Apparently he has always considered himself Scottish and the reason the SRU picked up on him was because he insisted on a Saltire next to his name on teamsheets while in SA, and it was seen by someone watching a recording of one of his games.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:15 pm Just rewatched the game. Some thoughts:
- What was Wales' gameplan? Just constant kicking to Steward and then hope something turned up. Bizarre but I suppose in Zammit's try it kind of worked.

- If we accept the framing of rebuilding/developing a team, there is clear progress over three games. Wales are toothless, as a caveat, however the defensive system starts to look pretty well oiled. Clearly designed to bend but not break, with huge emphasis on contesting the breakdown. The back row were obviously front and centre of that but just about everyone close to a ruck was hitting the ruck hard and trying to get hands on the ball. We won tonnes of turnovers and a few pens, but it also completely gummed up Welsh ball every time they attacked, meaning Wales then tried to hit a well formed defensive set and ended up either losing the ball or kicking it away. England's workrate in defence was pretty phenomenal and the whole thing seems joined up in a way it absolutely was not against Scotland.

- Less well oiled was the attack, albeit you can start to see Evans' mark on it. The team seems caught between a dynamic attacking philosophy that Evans embodies, the percentages rugby of Borthwick which dictates that slow ball goes to the boot, and the Sinfield philosophy that attack is simply defence by other means. This meant we hesitated at a few key points where other sides would have broken through and quite possibly scored. You can see everyone not quite sure whether to run an attacking line or get in position to chase a kick, making the whole thing a little tentative. With that said, the Watson try was an excellent team try involving a well designed play excellently executed by quite a wide cast of characters, and represents the best strike move we've run since the win over the Boks in November '21.

This clash between kicking and running means that whereas in defence we were wonderfully cohesive and coordinated, in attack often going forward meant people were isolated and either lost the ball, conceded a penalty or it became a mess. A few nascent opportunities got shut down in positions where Ireland, France and Scotland would have at least got within 5 metres of the line in the subsequent phases.
This split-second decision making attacking style does not suit a process and system fly half like Farrell, and the answer of who runs this sort of game best is pretty obvious - George Ford. It was noticeable that Faz was at his best in attack working in conjunction with Malins, who obviously train together all the time.

- Our tactical kicking was very good, certainly not faultless (both Faz and JVP stuck one out on the full, Slade and Faz kicked away an overlap each) but it left us playing the game we wanted to in the areas of the pitch we needed to. One of the reasons it wasn't the most exciting game ever played is because we saw clearly we were going to win the kicking battle hands down. Steward took everything, every kick was returned with interest and 1/2p/Zammit etc were on the back foot, smashed straight after taking the ball and unable to generate a reply. Not Baabaas stuff but ten minutes could go by without Wales even hinting at an opportunity, which away in Cardiff you'd take every day.

- Goal kicking cost us a bonus point IMO. If we'd nailed the penalty to go 18-10 up I think we'd have then moved through the gears. As it was we played it safe to close out Borthwick's first "proper" win. Italy deserve better than that perspective but it 100% will have been preying on all their minds that lose yesterday and we're staring down the barrel of a 1 win tournament, the decision to stick to winning the tactical kicking battle was understandable.

- Our discipline is night and day to Eddie's era, I noticed the silly one in our own half for three points as the only egregious pen. Makes a huge difference

- Compete at lineouts! When Maro did go up the Welsh lineout disintegrated, at the very least it throws the opposition and you make a barely discernible gain at a maul from not competing.

Overall, I remain reasonably satisfied. The defensive system is clicking, and hopefully another fortnight of drilling it will have it ready for the ferocious challenge France will pose to it. The attack shows promise but is the wrong system for the 10 we have, either change the system or change the 10. Given his goal kicking post-ankle injuries I'd opt for the latter sadly, if we're going to compete in the final two games we have to kick everything, and with the world cup in mind it will likely light a fairly serious fire under his arse.
Bar making Faz captain, Borthwick is nailing the selection calls, Watson another example. I hope he has the courage to stick with Ludlam/Willis/Dombrandt as it is starting to work superbly.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:56 am Not entirely surprising, but the word is that Smith being sent back to Quins for the weekend, with Ford being retained in his place.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:59 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:56 am Not entirely surprising, but the word is that Smith being sent back to Quins for the weekend, with Ford being retained in his place.

Yeah, I suspect he's being shuffled out, but even if not he definitely needs a game having had a grand total of <10 minutes over the last few weeks.