GogLais wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:54 pm
Jarrod Evans going to Harlequins according to Wales Online. Haven’t they got someone a bit like him already?
They've got Marcus Smith, Tommy Allan and Will Edwards, but Allan's off to France and Smith will be away with England for a good chunk of next season if the world cup campaign isn't a total flop. He may well also piss off to France when his current contract is up if it's clear there's no real plan for him to advance beyond third choice for country...
If post world cup 6nations we persist with Farrell or Ford Smith should definitely consider spending a couple of years in France.
GogLais wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:54 pm
Jarrod Evans going to Harlequins according to Wales Online. Haven’t they got someone a bit like him already?
They've got Marcus Smith, Tommy Allan and Will Edwards, but Allan's off to France and Smith will be away with England for a good chunk of next season if the world cup campaign isn't a total flop. He may well also piss off to France when his current contract is up if it's clear there's no real plan for him to advance beyond third choice for country...
If post world cup 6nations we persist with Farrell or Ford Smith should definitely consider spending a couple of years in France.
Why wouldn't we persist with 29 year old George Ford? He's a fantastic player who doesn't rely on physical excellence to be a great fly half. No reason why he couldn't continue to pull strings exceptionally well until he's 34.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:00 pm
by JM2K6
I would be hugely disappointed, even if I wasn't a Quins fan, if a young talented flyhalf who's had a club side built around him decided to bugger off to France because he had dropped to 3rd choice at international level
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:15 pm
by sockwithaticket
I think it's more that halving your base salary isn't particularly appealing if you're not playing much for your country. Fly half is one of the few positions where even just fairly decent players can command a pretty big salary by rugby standards. Someone like Smith could absolutely coin it across The Channel.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:16 pm
by Paddington Bear
He's had 20 caps in a row and likely will play at least half the games between now and the WC. He's a big boy and will likely take a few games out the side a little better than some of his biggest fans. There's a very good chance over a four year cycle a coach builds a team around him in a way that was always unlikely for one given five competitive matches before a RWC.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:50 pm
by Hal Jordan
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:16 pm
He's had 20 caps in a row and likely will play at least half the games between now and the WC. He's a big boy and will likely take a few games out the side a little better than some of his biggest fans. There's a very good chance over a four year cycle a coach builds a team around him in a way that was always unlikely for one given five competitive matches before a RWC.
Will he get more than 5 minutes in any of these matches, given that Farrell has been proclaimed "world class" by Borthwick and is basically marked "Do Not Substitute"?
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:16 pm
He's had 20 caps in a row and likely will play at least half the games between now and the WC. He's a big boy and will likely take a few games out the side a little better than some of his biggest fans. There's a very good chance over a four year cycle a coach builds a team around him in a way that was always unlikely for one given five competitive matches before a RWC.
Will he get more than 5 minutes in any of these matches, given that Farrell has been proclaimed "world class" by Borthwick and is basically marked "Do Not Substitute"?
The answer to this is obviously yes, and ‘do not substitute’ appears to have become an incontrovertible fact based off one game away in Cardiff.
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:16 pm
He's had 20 caps in a row and likely will play at least half the games between now and the WC. He's a big boy and will likely take a few games out the side a little better than some of his biggest fans. There's a very good chance over a four year cycle a coach builds a team around him in a way that was always unlikely for one given five competitive matches before a RWC.
Will he get more than 5 minutes in any of these matches, given that Farrell has been proclaimed "world class" by Borthwick and is basically marked "Do Not Substitute"?
The answer to this is obviously yes, and ‘do not substitute’ appears to have become an incontrovertible fact based off one game away in Cardiff.
In the Ford/Farrell years, wasn't Farrell switched to FH with Ford subbed off, on a regular basis.
Will he get more than 5 minutes in any of these matches, given that Farrell has been proclaimed "world class" by Borthwick and is basically marked "Do Not Substitute"?
The answer to this is obviously yes, and ‘do not substitute’ appears to have become an incontrovertible fact based off one game away in Cardiff.
In the Ford/Farrell years, wasn't Farrell switched to FH with Ford subbed off, on a regular basis.
And don't forget that Farrell used to stamp on kittens in the changing room at half-time. Fact. He's an absolute tyrant.
Will he get more than 5 minutes in any of these matches, given that Farrell has been proclaimed "world class" by Borthwick and is basically marked "Do Not Substitute"?
The answer to this is obviously yes, and ‘do not substitute’ appears to have become an incontrovertible fact based off one game away in Cardiff.
In the Ford/Farrell years, wasn't Farrell switched to FH with Ford subbed off, on a regular basis.
Doesn’t make huge odds though when discussing Borthwick’s time as England coach, where he’s shown himself to be pretty happy to bin off Eddie’s undroppables either after giving them a chance, or not, and upending his tactics (if there were any by the end) and leadership style.
Truth be told we really don’t know what his selection for France and Ireland will be, though I think his logic in picking his most experienced 10 for the two games *he* absolutely had to win to avoid his time in charge becoming a complete car crash makes a lot of sense even if I understand there are other options available and don’t think Faz has played particularly well (albeit he was immense in defence last week but that’s not criteria #1 for a fly half, of course).
Basically my position is something like; I like Faz, he’s not playing well, his kicking has gone down the pan, I think this team is set up for Ford, I like Smith and am aware we have history of burying talented running 10s, but I don’t think he’s proven much at international level *yet*, and I think suggesting he should move to France because Borthwick definitely hates the bloke who he got to start at 10 in his first game in charge and keeps talking up every time he’s mentioned is borderline hysterical
The answer to this is obviously yes, and ‘do not substitute’ appears to have become an incontrovertible fact based off one game away in Cardiff.
In the Ford/Farrell years, wasn't Farrell switched to FH with Ford subbed off, on a regular basis.
Doesn’t make huge odds though when discussing Borthwick’s time as England coach, where he’s shown himself to be pretty happy to bin off Eddie’s undroppables either after giving them a chance, or not, and upending his tactics (if there were any by the end) and leadership style.
Truth be told we really don’t know what his selection for France and Ireland will be, though I think his logic in picking his most experienced 10 for the two games *he* absolutely had to win to avoid his time in charge becoming a complete car crash makes a lot of sense even if I understand there are other options available and don’t think Faz has played particularly well (albeit he was immense in defence last week but that’s not criteria #1 for a fly half, of course).
Basically my position is something like; I like Faz, he’s not playing well, his kicking has gone down the pan, I think this team is set up for Ford, I like Smith and am aware we have history of burying talented running 10s, but I don’t think he’s proven much at international level *yet*, and I think suggesting he should move to France because Borthwick definitely hates the bloke who he got to start at 10 in his first game in charge and keeps talking up every time he’s mentioned is borderline hysterical
Has anyone suggested that Borthers hates Smith - I've not noticed that.
Personally, I'd stick with Farrell at 10 for now - and not move him to 12 again. I can understand what Borthers is doing atm - getting a solid foundation. I don't think the side is quite ready for the expansive sort of game we'd need to play to get the best from Smith. And, it'd be good to have some continuity in our backline - we can't expect fluency if we keep radically changing the 9/10/12/13 combination.
But, I do get the impression that Farrell will be the everpresent, regardless. It, sort of, follows on from Borthers making him skipper and all the plaudits he throws at him.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:44 am
by fishfoodie
How I expect the Faz v Smith battle to go .... hopefully without the shits during the duel, to establish the pecking order
And don't forget that Farrell used to stamp on kittens in the changing room at half-time. Fact. He's an absolute tyrant.
Not sure if you realise it - but you aren't very funny - just tiresome.
Don't take it too seriously.
Don't worry, that goes without saying when it come to yur posts...............
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:56 pm
by Hal Jordan
I think we can all agree that whoever starts at 10, if Farrell is shifted back to 12 there will be attacks of thundering apoplexy.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:57 pm
by Kawazaki
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:56 pm
I think we can all agree that whoever starts at 10, if Farrell is shifted back to 12 there will be attacks of thundering apoplexy.
Exactly - and taking the piss out of that reaction is fair game!
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:55 pm
by Ovals
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:56 pm
I think we can all agree that whoever starts at 10, if Farrell is shifted back to 12 there will be attacks of thundering apoplexy.
I'd rather they didn't switch him back to 12 as I'd rather see him play in his normal position at 10 and I also want to see us stop farting around with the backline every match (or two). Given the success of playing Lawrence at 12, it'd seem an odd choice to move him to 13.
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:56 pm
I think we can all agree that whoever starts at 10, if Farrell is shifted back to 12 there will be attacks of thundering apoplexy.
I'd rather they didn't switch him back to 12 as I'd rather see him play in his normal position at 10 and I also want to see us stop farting around with the backline every match (or two). Given the success of playing Lawrence at 12, it'd seem an odd choice to move him to 13.
Hopefully our coaches know what they're doing.
Move Farrell to 9. I mean, Youngs was phoning it in from there for years so how much worse could it be?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:07 pm
by SaintK
Couple of retirements announced today
Mikey Haywood is leaving Saints at the end of the season to take up the position of head of rugby at St Joseph's College in Ipswich.
Ben Morgan to retire in the summer and has been awarded a testimonial by Glaws.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:19 pm
by Oxbow
SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:07 pm
Couple of retirements announced today
Mikey Haywood is leaving Saints at the end of the season to take up the position of head of rugby at St Joseph's College in Ipswich.
Surprised about Haywood, though he never really did regain his pre-injury form. Makes the signing of Langdon all the more important.
SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:07 pm
Couple of retirements announced today
Mikey Haywood is leaving Saints at the end of the season to take up the position of head of rugby at St Joseph's College in Ipswich.
Surprised about Haywood, though he never really did regain his pre-injury form. Makes the signing of Langdon all the more important.
Yeah, at 32 he's ever so slightly younger than me, which is no age for a non-injury enforced retirement these days.
SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:07 pm
Couple of retirements announced today
Mikey Haywood is leaving Saints at the end of the season to take up the position of head of rugby at St Joseph's College in Ipswich.
Surprised about Haywood, though he never really did regain his pre-injury form. Makes the signing of Langdon all the more important.
That sort of role is gold dust though if that's what you want to go into, and the door closes fast. St Joseph's likely won't be looking for another head of rugby for 20 odd years, for example.
SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:07 pm
Couple of retirements announced today
Mikey Haywood is leaving Saints at the end of the season to take up the position of head of rugby at St Joseph's College in Ipswich.
Surprised about Haywood, though he never really did regain his pre-injury form. Makes the signing of Langdon all the more important.
That sort of role is gold dust though if that's what you want to go into, and the door closes fast. St Joseph's likely won't be looking for another head of rugby for 20 odd years, for example.
Absolutely
St Joseph’s is a top rugby school and I’m sure he will still have regular contact with Saints as they are in their E Anglia academy catchment area
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:05 am
by Ovals
How is it that we've now got so many excellent English backrowers.
We have the starters from the last test
Ludlam, Willis and Dommers
Then there's Earls , B Curry and T Curry, Pearson, Tom Willis, Mercer, Lawes, Will Evans, Barbeary
And there's still Billy V and Sam Underhill
We're absolutely overloaded with options.
We could really do with some of that depth eleswhere.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:22 am
by dpedin
Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:05 am
How is it that we've now got so many excellent English backrowers.
We have the starters from the last test
Ludlam, Willis and Dommers
Then there's Earls , B Curry and T Curry, Pearson, Tom Willis, Mercer, Lawes, Will Evans, Barbeary
And there's still Billy V and Sam Underhill
We're absolutely overloaded with options.
We could really do with some of that depth eleswhere.
Agreed but it is all about finding the right combination for a test side. Some have struggled a bit in stepping up to test match standard but often because of the lack of consistency in selection? Lots of good players but at times the combinations chosen seems a bit odd and they sometimes seem to be a bit confused about their overall team game plan. I suspect your new coach will get it right soon.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:27 am
by Brazil
Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:05 am
How is it that we've now got so many excellent English backrowers.
We have the starters from the last test
Ludlam, Willis and Dommers
Then there's Earls , B Curry and T Curry, Pearson, Tom Willis, Mercer, Lawes, Will Evans, Barbeary
And there's still Billy V and Sam Underhill
We're absolutely overloaded with options.
We could really do with some of that depth eleswhere.
Back row became the position everyone wanted to play in the early noughties and the most talented kids tended to gravitate there. What's more surprising is that we've got such a depth of talent at 9 emerging after being so limited there for years (basically care or youngs all the way back to the dark days of Harry Ellis). Meanwhile, at 12, the cupboard is pretty bare.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:34 am
by Paddington Bear
See also the front row where below the starters and some old boys we look as weak as we have for a long time. I suppose we could bring over some Saffers like everyone else
Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:05 am
How is it that we've now got so many excellent English backrowers.
We have the starters from the last test
Ludlam, Willis and Dommers
Then there's Earls , B Curry and T Curry, Pearson, Tom Willis, Mercer, Lawes, Will Evans, Barbeary
And there's still Billy V and Sam Underhill
We're absolutely overloaded with options.
We could really do with some of that depth eleswhere.
Back row became the position everyone wanted to play in the early noughties and the most talented kids tended to gravitate there. What's more surprising is that we've got such a depth of talent at 9 emerging after being so limited there for years (basically care or youngs all the way back to the dark days of Harry Ellis). Meanwhile, at 12, the cupboard is pretty bare.
Aye, it's been a problem position ever since Greenwood* - we had a few promising candidates but none ever really kicked on, although I've high hopes for Kelly and Ojomoh is looking decent.
*I am not getting into any arguments about the numbers Tindall and Greenwood wore.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:45 am
by sockwithaticket
Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:05 am
How is it that we've now got so many excellent English backrowers.
We have the starters from the last test
Ludlam, Willis and Dommers
Then there's Earls , B Curry and T Curry, Pearson, Tom Willis, Mercer, Lawes, Will Evans, Barbeary
And there's still Billy V and Sam Underhill
We're absolutely overloaded with options.
We could really do with some of that depth eleswhere.
Also Sam Simmonds and Ted Hill.
Fisilau in the U20s is an impressive lad and I know Ilione is very highly rated
Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:05 am
How is it that we've now got so many excellent English backrowers.
We have the starters from the last test
Ludlam, Willis and Dommers
Then there's Earls , B Curry and T Curry, Pearson, Tom Willis, Mercer, Lawes, Will Evans, Barbeary
And there's still Billy V and Sam Underhill
We're absolutely overloaded with options.
We could really do with some of that depth eleswhere.
Back row became the position everyone wanted to play in the early noughties and the most talented kids tended to gravitate there. What's more surprising is that we've got such a depth of talent at 9 emerging after being so limited there for years (basically care or youngs all the way back to the dark days of Harry Ellis). Meanwhile, at 12, the cupboard is pretty bare.
Aye, it's been a problem position ever since Greenwood* - we had a few promising candidates but none ever really kicked on, although I've high hopes for Kelly and Ojomoh is looking decent.
*I am not getting into any arguments about the numbers Tindall and Greenwood wore.
With the Premiership salary cap now not being particularly competitive, perhaps we'll see more English talent in the 12 channel. While we've always had EQP options there, it's a position that has suffered from often being filled with imports across the league.
Back row became the position everyone wanted to play in the early noughties and the most talented kids tended to gravitate there. What's more surprising is that we've got such a depth of talent at 9 emerging after being so limited there for years (basically care or youngs all the way back to the dark days of Harry Ellis). Meanwhile, at 12, the cupboard is pretty bare.
Aye, it's been a problem position ever since Greenwood* - we had a few promising candidates but none ever really kicked on, although I've high hopes for Kelly and Ojomoh is looking decent.
*I am not getting into any arguments about the numbers Tindall and Greenwood wore.
With the Premiership salary cap now not being particularly competitive, perhaps we'll see more English talent in the 12 channel. While we've always had EQP options there, it's a position that has suffered from often being filled with imports across the league.
Why would there be any causal link between the amount of the cap and the lack of English 12s coming through the system?
Aye, it's been a problem position ever since Greenwood* - we had a few promising candidates but none ever really kicked on, although I've high hopes for Kelly and Ojomoh is looking decent.
*I am not getting into any arguments about the numbers Tindall and Greenwood wore.
With the Premiership salary cap now not being particularly competitive, perhaps we'll see more English talent in the 12 channel. While we've always had EQP options there, it's a position that has suffered from often being filled with imports across the league.
Why would there be any causal link between the amount of the cap and the lack of English 12s coming through the system?
The argument is that foreign (generally expensive) imports are taking up places that might now be filled by younger local English players.
I can see a possible link between reduction in number of overseas players due to reduction in cap, and the number of younger English players given a shot (i.e. squads in general will have more academy players). I'm not sure which positions are likely to see the greatest impact. I always thought tighthead was an area where teams spent big on a huge saffa lump.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:13 am
by Raggs
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:48 am
With the Premiership salary cap now not being particularly competitive, perhaps we'll see more English talent in the 12 channel. While we've always had EQP options there, it's a position that has suffered from often being filled with imports across the league.
Hoping Olly Hartley gets a chance to continue to shine. He's got all the physical tools, just have to hope he can capitalise on that.
Aye, it's been a problem position ever since Greenwood* - we had a few promising candidates but none ever really kicked on, although I've high hopes for Kelly and Ojomoh is looking decent.
*I am not getting into any arguments about the numbers Tindall and Greenwood wore.
With the Premiership salary cap now not being particularly competitive, perhaps we'll see more English talent in the 12 channel. While we've always had EQP options there, it's a position that has suffered from often being filled with imports across the league.
Why would there be any causal link between the amount of the cap and the lack of English 12s coming through the system?
Problem positions are the ones most likely to have had imports brought in rather than taking a chance on young English players. Reduction in salary cap means less money to throw at those positions while maintaining a balanced squad which likely means a poorer quality of import if going that route, unless making them the marquee player, meaning a smaller gap (perceived or otherwise) between an imported player and an inexperienced domestic one. At which point the evaluation should go in favour of the latter more often. We might still see the odd Andre Esterhuizen if France or Japan don't get there first, but we should see fewer signings like Ben Tapuai or over the hill Jamie Roberts.
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:48 am
With the Premiership salary cap now not being particularly competitive, perhaps we'll see more English talent in the 12 channel. While we've always had EQP options there, it's a position that has suffered from often being filled with imports across the league.
Hoping Olly Hartley gets a chance to continue to shine. He's got all the physical tools, just have to hope he can capitalise on that.
Haven't watched it, but it seems he played most of the game last week for Sarries against Newcastle. More of that, please.
With the Premiership salary cap now not being particularly competitive, perhaps we'll see more English talent in the 12 channel. While we've always had EQP options there, it's a position that has suffered from often being filled with imports across the league.
Why would there be any causal link between the amount of the cap and the lack of English 12s coming through the system?
Problem positions are the ones most likely to have had imports brought in rather than taking a chance on young English players. Reduction in salary cap means less money to throw at those positions while maintaining a balanced squad which likely means a poorer quality of import if going that route, unless making them the marquee player, meaning a smaller gap (perceived or otherwise) between an imported player and an inexperienced domestic one. At which point the evaluation should go in favour of the latter more often. We might still see the odd Andre Esterhuizen if France or Japan don't get there first, but we should see fewer signings like Ben Tapuai or over the hill Jamie Roberts.
Less money isn't going to make the problem go away though is it. I used to play 12, I'm as curious as the next person as to why 12 should be the position where England simply haven't had any depth for years.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:03 pm
by sockwithaticket
I don't think it's been the case that we don't have any 12s, I think importing a 25+ year old established pro from elsewhere has been preferred to taking a chance on a young English kid unless they're obviously brilliant for their age. Now maybe, it just means we end up with a bunch of middling EQP 12s up and down the Prem, but I suspect that a few of them, if actually given the opportunity to play, would continue to improve and look international standard.
I also think some of our 12 candidates have been shunted out to 13 because they're not as physically developed at 18 - 21 as might be preferred for the 12 shirt. Then once they've learnt the ropes there, no one thinks to move them back inside or just leaves them there because they've already got the import in place.
Why would there be any causal link between the amount of the cap and the lack of English 12s coming through the system?
Problem positions are the ones most likely to have had imports brought in rather than taking a chance on young English players. Reduction in salary cap means less money to throw at those positions while maintaining a balanced squad which likely means a poorer quality of import if going that route, unless making them the marquee player, meaning a smaller gap (perceived or otherwise) between an imported player and an inexperienced domestic one. At which point the evaluation should go in favour of the latter more often. We might still see the odd Andre Esterhuizen if France or Japan don't get there first, but we should see fewer signings like Ben Tapuai or over the hill Jamie Roberts.
Less money isn't going to make the problem go away though is it. I used to play 12, I'm as curious as the next person as to why 12 should be the position where England simply haven't had any depth for years.
I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.
No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.
There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:39 pm
by Kawazaki
inactionman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:07 pm
I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.
No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.
There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)
I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.
