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It's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:39 pminactionman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:07 pm
I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.
No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.
There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)
I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.
Agreed. It seems to be an unloved position. It seems in England nowadays, People who get stuck at 12 are those who: (i) weren't fast enough to be further out in the back line; (ii) not good enough to be FH; (iii) not quite powerful enough to be moved to back row, hooker etc. I even see this sometimes locally in club rugby too (albeit that's not in England)...Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:39 pminactionman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:07 pm
I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.
No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.
There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)
I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.
He's on the bench for Bath at Tigers tomorrowOvals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:35 pmIt's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:39 pminactionman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:07 pm
I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.
No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.
There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)
I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.
In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.
Aye - he could have hands like feet and some kindly coach thought 'better stick you where that won't mater so much'. God knows, in the case of Barbeary, as I've still not seen him play live yet.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 pm Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p
Sorry, it's a little thing, but it's driving me nuts.Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:35 pmIt's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:39 pminactionman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:07 pm
I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.
No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.
There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)
I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.
In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.
He was started in the forwards, front row I believe, dominated it, so a forward thinking coach put him in the backrow to develop more running skills, then same reason to move him to twelve to work on his hands and kicking (he's not bad at kicking), but at school he still threw into the lineout to keep that skill up. I suspect it was always viewed as upskilling a forward, than expecting him to have the pace to really become a high level 12.inactionman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:13 pmAye - he could have hands like feet and some kindly coach thought 'better stick you where that won't mater so much'. God knows, in the case of Barbeary, as I've still not seen him play live yet.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 pm Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p
I've always thought 12 was a tricky position to fill, requiring powerful but agile running with distribution skills and having to defend quick backs and charging backrows. At least in the crappy schoolboy teams I played in, these tended to be pretty mutually exclusive skillsets - forwards were big buggers, back were speedy, 9 and 10s could pass and kick and shout at everyone.
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 pm Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p
You need to get out more.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:15 pmSorry, it's a little thing, but it's driving me nuts.Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:35 pmIt's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:39 pm
I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.
In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.
Ben EARL
Keith EARLS
Same thing happens with Dan Cole, people are always tossing an 's' onto his name, making me think we've suddenly started talking about Kiwi hooker Dane Coles.
If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelationsockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:15 pmSorry, it's a little thing, but it's driving me nuts.Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:35 pmIt's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:39 pm
I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.
In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.
Ben EARL
Keith EARLS
Same thing happens with Dan Cole, people are always tossing an 's' onto his name, making me think we've suddenly started talking about Kiwi hooker Dane Coles.
I'm not going to discourage you from doing some research, that sounds very useful. I just am aware that you get a bee in your bonnet over things like this based on very little information (see also Ayoola Erinle, or "Cadan Murley should've been forced to play scrumhalf") and some perceived lack of personnel in certain positions at the top level of the game. The fact is, there's hundreds of kids at that age playing in every position, and making these decisions based on what we see as the failings of the top level is madness. Making these decisions off the back of a highlight reel is even sillier. It's not immediately obvious that Barbeary should've been playing 12. Especially as he apparently [according to Raggs, who probably knows this better than the rest of us ] only briefly played 12 as a way to improve his skills, making the entire whinge not only silly but based on a falsehood.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:30 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 pm Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p
Maybe if I spend a few weeks on research so I can find another 20 examples for you. Don't you worry.
Ironically, Dane Coles would've made an excellent 12sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:15 pmSorry, it's a little thing, but it's driving me nuts.Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:35 pmIt's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:39 pm
I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.
In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.
Ben EARL
Keith EARLS
Same thing happens with Dan Cole, people are always tossing an 's' onto his name, making me think we've suddenly started talking about Kiwi hooker Dane Coles.
It will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 pm Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:00 pmI'm not going to discourage you from doing some research, that sounds very useful. I just am aware that you get a bee in your bonnet over things like this based on very little information (see also Ayoola Erinle, or "Cadan Murley should've been forced to play scrumhalf") and some perceived lack of personnel in certain positions at the top level of the game. The fact is, there's hundreds of kids at that age playing in every position, and making these decisions based on what we see as the failings of the top level is madness. Making these decisions off the back of a highlight reel is even sillier. It's not immediately obvious that Barbeary should've been playing 12. Especially as he apparently [according to Raggs, who probably knows this better than the rest of us ] only briefly played 12 as a way to improve his skills, making the entire whinge not only silly but based on a falsehood.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:30 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 pm Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p
Maybe if I spend a few weeks on research so I can find another 20 examples for you. Don't you worry.
Could Ben Earl have been a good 12? Yeah, probably! He's an absolutely fantastic back row, though, and in fairness I don't think I've seen much in the way of a passing game from him. Could Sam Simmonds have been a good 12? Maybe! Would he be as good as being the European Player of the Year as an 8? Probably not!
Has he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.shaggy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:52 pmIt will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 pm Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p
Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:13 pmHas he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.shaggy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:52 pmIt will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 pm Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p
)Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:15 pm
Not really. An inside-centre really doesn't need to know how to win a tail ball in a lineout.
Turned it off a long time ago, it was obvious early on that Bad Saints had turned up.Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:23 pmStains flitting between a facsimile of a rugby side and mannequins!
CowardOxbow wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:30 pmTurned it off a long time ago, it was obvious early on that Bad Saints had turned up.Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:23 pmStains flitting between a facsimile of a rugby side and mannequins!
You're a better man than I am. Just saw that Saints have shipped over 500 points this season. Think it's fair to say defence is not a strong point.SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:49 pmCowardOxbow wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:30 pmTurned it off a long time ago, it was obvious early on that Bad Saints had turned up.Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:23 pm
Stains flitting between a facsimile of a rugby side and mannequins!
I made it to the end
Yes, an IC all way up. Real shame, he is a beast who loves both the defense and attack.Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:13 pmHas he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.shaggy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:52 pmIt will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 pm Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p
Is he quick enough?shaggy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:44 pmYes, an IC all way up. Real shame, he is a beast who loves both the defense and attack.
At 14 and that size he'd obviously be a beast, how's his vision in attack, how's his tactical kicking game? How fast is he turning? How big are his parents?shaggy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:44 pmYes, an IC all way up. Real shame, he is a beast who loves both the defense and attack.
Raggs wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:19 amAt 14 and that size he'd obviously be a beast, how's his vision in attack, how's his tactical kicking game? How fast is he turning? How big are his parents?
EDIT - JMK at 14 and that size he's probably one of the quicker ones on the pitch, but his speed now is probably a long way from reflective of what it'll be as an adult (unless he's already putting in quick adult times, which he may be).
Further edit, all the way up, in theory he's only been playing positions for max a couple of seasons.
Not seen him play but from what I hear he has speed. His dad is lock material, his grandfather even taller so maybe it is the right thing to do when you look at his genes!Raggs wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:19 amAt 14 and that size he'd obviously be a beast, how's his vision in attack, how's his tactical kicking game? How fast is he turning? How big are his parents?
EDIT - JMK at 14 and that size he's probably one of the quicker ones on the pitch, but his speed now is probably a long way from reflective of what it'll be as an adult (unless he's already putting in quick adult times, which he may be).
Further edit, all the way up, in theory he's only been playing positions for max a couple of seasons.
It should be imposed on him really. The choice to retire was 2 or 3 concussions ago.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:08 pm Underhill appears to have been sparked out again. A man who really ought to be considering retirement
Yeah I think that’s fair. Tragic on both a human basis and from a rugby one - the man was on a path to finishing his career rivalling Hill/Back/Lol in an England shirt IMOsockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:13 pm Barbeary looking badly injured about 9 minutes into his comeback
It should be imposed on him really. The choice to retire was 2 or 3 concussions ago.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:08 pm Underhill appears to have been sparked out again. A man who really ought to be considering retirement
His highlight moments definitely pointed towards that sort of ceiling, just doesn't have the body for it. When it's not concussion it's some other physical ailment.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:24 pmYeah I think that’s fair. Tragic on both a human basis and from a rugby one - the man was on a path to finishing his career rivalling Hill/Back/Lol in an England shirt IMOsockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:13 pm Barbeary looking badly injured about 9 minutes into his comeback
It should be imposed on him really. The choice to retire was 2 or 3 concussions ago.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:08 pm Underhill appears to have been sparked out again. A man who really ought to be considering retirement