NPR

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:50 pm

ASMO wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:47 pm Sarries got everything they deserved out of that game.......nothing...

Well they clearly deserve a losing bonus point.

How did they get that, they lost 35-24, 9 points and 3 tries so no try bonus point either

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:47 pm Saracens have had the shit end of the stick from the referee team. It's clearly affected the players.

Aw, the poor, whooping entitled little bears. Hope they get some cocao on the bus home.

I suspect if the forward pass try was not awarded the result would have been very different. Just because it was against Saracens doesn't make it ok. It was an abysmal fuck up and wholly avoidable. Not even marginal.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:56 pm I suspect if the forward pass try was not awarded the result would have been very different. Just because it was against Saracens doesn't make it ok. It was an abysmal fuck up and wholly avoidable. Not even marginal.

Yep - they were well and truly stitched up by the Officials.

I'm a great believer that these things even themselves out over the course of the season. Sarries won a game we would not have done had the TMO done their job properly down at Kingsholm, and a TMO not doing their job properly was a massive swing in a game we may well have won otherwise today. So I'm not angry about it, that is part and parcel of sport.

With all that said, both decisions I've referenced, and there are others across the Prem this season, were completely avoidable if the TMO and officiating team met basic standards. And that's a wider Premiership problem, people's jobs are on the line in these games, people are paying good money to watch and too often there are very, very avoidable fuck ups that change games. There's no conspiracy against Sarries or any other side, the TMOs just aren't up to officiating the level.

The Gloucester match didn't affect a scoring opportunity though did it. Hodnett was the TMO who missed the Kelly elbow drop onto Davies' head at Welford Road last season as it was literally being replayed on the screen.

It was the 'nothing materially' wrong call that got me, she looked at it and still got it wrong. It wasn't missed.

Edit: it was 'nothing compelling'.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:44 pm This cunt of a TMO is never good news for Saracens. She is utter shite.

You stay classy San Diego

Not a single congratulation for Joe Carpenters masterful performance from fullback, not calls for him to replace the predestrian Steward? For shame!

Brazil wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:04 pm Not a single congratulation for Joe Carpenters masterful performance from fullback, not calls for him to replace the predestrian Steward? For shame!

Trolling alert

Damn you old man!

Ruck reporting that Willis has a decent offer from Bristol for next season - excellent news.

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:20 pm Ruck reporting that Willis has a decent offer from Bristol for next season - excellent news.

Well, they'll certainly have some salary cap spare with Radradra and Piutau leaving.
Could get interesting with Toulouse wanting to keep him and several other T14 clubs expressing interest.

England training squad of 36 announced, pretty much all.the usual suspects.

I haven't listened to the pod yet, but the Beeb have farted out an article based on Chris Jones, Ugo Monye and Danny Care talking about relaxing England's overseas player rules. From the quotes it seems they're guilty of massively over-stating the number of players currently leaving and the existing capacity in France for foreign players even if loads more English wanted to go.

Every time this comes up it feels very framed in English exceptionalism. No consideration is given to the top players from around the world that English players might be in competition with for the limited spots JIFF quotas and Japan's category system leave available.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:05 pm I haven't listened to the pod yet, but the Beeb have farted out an article based on Chris Jones, Ugo Monye and Danny Care talking about relaxing England's overseas player rules. From the quotes it seems they're guilty of massively over-stating the number of players currently leaving and the existing capacity in France for foreign players even if loads more English wanted to go.

Every time this comes up it feels very framed in English exceptionalism. No consideration is given to the top players from around the world that English players might be in competition with for the limited spots JIFF quotas and Japan's category system leave available.

Doesn't it come up regularly? We have a few players that aren't really in contention for one reason or another, and it's suddenly the exodus, and the whole England team is about to go overseas?

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:05 pm I haven't listened to the pod yet, but the Beeb have farted out an article based on Chris Jones, Ugo Monye and Danny Care talking about relaxing England's overseas player rules. From the quotes it seems they're guilty of massively over-stating the number of players currently leaving and the existing capacity in France for foreign players even if loads more English wanted to go.

Every time this comes up it feels very framed in English exceptionalism. No consideration is given to the top players from around the world that English players might be in competition with for the limited spots JIFF quotas and Japan's category system leave available.

We are losing some players who you'd expect to be in the England frame, but I'd agree it's not like half the starting XV are off overseas.

My concern in all this talk of exodus is akin to the Nick Evans situation - a great player stuck behind a truly generational talent, who ups and moves permanently to advance their career and earnings. Put another way, I'd have been worried if the likes of Zach Mercer didn't return/Joe Marchant doesn't return - I'd suggest we might want to put some slack in the system for young players moving overseas to develop their game and career in perceived absence of international recognition, rather than old lags off for a payday.

Which may or may not be what was said in the podcast. Apols if repeat or irrelevant to the points being made.

Without having listened to it I bet it conflates the temporary situation of those players whose clubs went bust getting temporary overseas contracts with those players who have chosen to further their careers abroad. Tom Willis isn't Sam Simmonds, for example.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:10 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:05 pm I haven't listened to the pod yet, but the Beeb have farted out an article based on Chris Jones, Ugo Monye and Danny Care talking about relaxing England's overseas player rules. From the quotes it seems they're guilty of massively over-stating the number of players currently leaving and the existing capacity in France for foreign players even if loads more English wanted to go.

Every time this comes up it feels very framed in English exceptionalism. No consideration is given to the top players from around the world that English players might be in competition with for the limited spots JIFF quotas and Japan's category system leave available.

Doesn't it come up regularly? We have a few players that aren't really in contention for one reason or another, and it's suddenly the exodus, and the whole England team is about to go overseas?

It does come up now and then, but I feel like the focus its had over the last few weeks is something we haven't seen since the heady days of Steffon Armitage being in France and the narrative of the beastly RFU depriving England of the greatest 7 in the world, the missing piece to world domination. Now we're not quite there yet in terms of coverage, but some certainly seem to want it to be much more of a story than it is.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:10 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:05 pm I haven't listened to the pod yet, but the Beeb have farted out an article based on Chris Jones, Ugo Monye and Danny Care talking about relaxing England's overseas player rules. From the quotes it seems they're guilty of massively over-stating the number of players currently leaving and the existing capacity in France for foreign players even if loads more English wanted to go.

Every time this comes up it feels very framed in English exceptionalism. No consideration is given to the top players from around the world that English players might be in competition with for the limited spots JIFF quotas and Japan's category system leave available.

Doesn't it come up regularly? We have a few players that aren't really in contention for one reason or another, and it's suddenly the exodus, and the whole England team is about to go overseas?

However, are we just seeing the start of our players being tempted away. As more of the better paid players' contracts come up for renewal, and face big salary cuts, could we see far more opt for foreign teams.

There's also the question of whether it is fair for our players to have their earning potential artifically reduced by a stringent salary cap, on one hand, and, on the other, being banned from England selection when they move to clubs that will pay their market price.

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:38 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:10 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:05 pm I haven't listened to the pod yet, but the Beeb have farted out an article based on Chris Jones, Ugo Monye and Danny Care talking about relaxing England's overseas player rules. From the quotes it seems they're guilty of massively over-stating the number of players currently leaving and the existing capacity in France for foreign players even if loads more English wanted to go.

Every time this comes up it feels very framed in English exceptionalism. No consideration is given to the top players from around the world that English players might be in competition with for the limited spots JIFF quotas and Japan's category system leave available.

Doesn't it come up regularly? We have a few players that aren't really in contention for one reason or another, and it's suddenly the exodus, and the whole England team is about to go overseas?

However, are we just seeing the start of our players being tempted away. As more of the better paid players' contracts come up for renewal, and face big salary cuts, could we see far more opt for foreign teams.

There's also the question of whether it is fair for our players to have their earning potential artifically reduced by a stringent salary cap, on one hand, and, on the other, being banned from England selection when they move to clubs that will pay their market price.

England players wanting to go abroad is only one half of the equation, like I mentioned in my post France has it's JIFF quotas and when looking at who can fill their remaining slots their choices include players from every other significant rugby nation. More than that, players who aren't looking to combine their time in France with international duty are generally much better value for the French clubs.

Pacific Islanders like Dan Leo have mentioned in the past that their players are often offered two contracts and the higher value one is the one that (informally) requires players to renounce their international ambitions. While England have a policy of not selecting those playing abroad, those who do opt to go are negating the need for that choice to be offered; functionally they are ruling themselves out of playing for anyone but the club and thus their salary demand can be higher. If England were to change their rules, I suspect the offers available to players would be less attractive than they are currently.

The other potential destination is of course Japan, but last year they introduced a category system. Category B is foreign players eligible for Japan, Category C is foreign players not eligible for Japan. Only 20% of a Top League team's overall squad can be comprised of category B and C players, matchday squads must have 17 category A players. That doesn't leave an awful lot of room for foreign players. Leaving aside the logistics of flying from Japan to the UK for the Six Nations, a player who isn't intending to play internationally is thus that much more valuable.

All of that is a long winded way to say that currently top English players can command a high salary when going abroad, but if they were still available for international selection I don't think the contracts they're offered would be so head turning.

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:38 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:10 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:05 pm I haven't listened to the pod yet, but the Beeb have farted out an article based on Chris Jones, Ugo Monye and Danny Care talking about relaxing England's overseas player rules. From the quotes it seems they're guilty of massively over-stating the number of players currently leaving and the existing capacity in France for foreign players even if loads more English wanted to go.

Every time this comes up it feels very framed in English exceptionalism. No consideration is given to the top players from around the world that English players might be in competition with for the limited spots JIFF quotas and Japan's category system leave available.

Doesn't it come up regularly? We have a few players that aren't really in contention for one reason or another, and it's suddenly the exodus, and the whole England team is about to go overseas?

However, are we just seeing the start of our players being tempted away. As more of the better paid players' contracts come up for renewal, and face big salary cuts, could we see far more opt for foreign teams.

There's also the question of whether it is fair for our players to have their earning potential artifically reduced by a stringent salary cap, on one hand, and, on the other, being banned from England selection when they move to clubs that will pay their market price.

They are paid the market price. Just because there's one overseas market that can offer them more, doesn't mean they're not paid the market price. Otherwise you might as well factor in Wales, Scotland, Ireland (where there's zero market for English players), NZ, Oz, and SA - English players are paid more domestically than they would be in those countries.

Thing is, I'm not as opposed to the idea of selecting overseas based players as I once was. I don't think it would lead to an exodus precisely because of the reasons laid out by others regarding the changes in French and Japanese rugby.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:30 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:38 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:10 pm

Doesn't it come up regularly? We have a few players that aren't really in contention for one reason or another, and it's suddenly the exodus, and the whole England team is about to go overseas?

However, are we just seeing the start of our players being tempted away. As more of the better paid players' contracts come up for renewal, and face big salary cuts, could we see far more opt for foreign teams.

There's also the question of whether it is fair for our players to have their earning potential artifically reduced by a stringent salary cap, on one hand, and, on the other, being banned from England selection when they move to clubs that will pay their market price.

They are paid the market price. Just because there's one overseas market that can offer them more, doesn't mean they're not paid the market price. Otherwise you might as well factor in Wales, Scotland, Ireland (where there's zero market for English players), NZ, Oz, and SA - English players are paid more domestically than they would be in those countries.

Thing is, I'm not as opposed to the idea of selecting overseas based players as I once was. I don't think it would lead to an exodus precisely because of the reasons laid out by others regarding the changes in French and Japanese rugby.

The imposition of a salary cap, whilst for good reasons, does artifically affect the market price of players. Restrictions on playing for foreign clubs also affects the market price - because English clubs aren't having to compete so much with foreign clubs.

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:59 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:30 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:38 pm

However, are we just seeing the start of our players being tempted away. As more of the better paid players' contracts come up for renewal, and face big salary cuts, could we see far more opt for foreign teams.

There's also the question of whether it is fair for our players to have their earning potential artifically reduced by a stringent salary cap, on one hand, and, on the other, being banned from England selection when they move to clubs that will pay their market price.

They are paid the market price. Just because there's one overseas market that can offer them more, doesn't mean they're not paid the market price. Otherwise you might as well factor in Wales, Scotland, Ireland (where there's zero market for English players), NZ, Oz, and SA - English players are paid more domestically than they would be in those countries.

Thing is, I'm not as opposed to the idea of selecting overseas based players as I once was. I don't think it would lead to an exodus precisely because of the reasons laid out by others regarding the changes in French and Japanese rugby.

The imposition of a salary cap, whilst for good reasons, does artifically affect the market price of players. Restrictions on playing for foreign clubs also affects the market price - because English clubs aren't having to compete so much with foreign clubs.

The salary cap is there because otherwise the sport would be dominated by a couple of clubs with endless pockets and the rest would either have to pay a much lower set of wages or go bust trying to compete. The market price isn't the highest you could possibly get in any location at the best possible time - it's the going rate for your role in your environment.

What French clubs used to be willing to pay is no more relevant than what an Aussie super rugby team would pay, or what Glasgow would pay. But for some reason people only ever talk about the hypothetical French wages and never the lower wages on offer from other countries, probably because players stick to their domestic arrangements in most cases rather than do the Haskell/Marchant thing and play overseas for less money.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:17 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:59 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:30 pm

They are paid the market price. Just because there's one overseas market that can offer them more, doesn't mean they're not paid the market price. Otherwise you might as well factor in Wales, Scotland, Ireland (where there's zero market for English players), NZ, Oz, and SA - English players are paid more domestically than they would be in those countries.

Thing is, I'm not as opposed to the idea of selecting overseas based players as I once was. I don't think it would lead to an exodus precisely because of the reasons laid out by others regarding the changes in French and Japanese rugby.

The imposition of a salary cap, whilst for good reasons, does artifically affect the market price of players. Restrictions on playing for foreign clubs also affects the market price - because English clubs aren't having to compete so much with foreign clubs.

The salary cap is there because otherwise the sport would be dominated by a couple of clubs with endless pockets and the rest would either have to pay a much lower set of wages or go bust trying to compete. The market price isn't the highest you could possibly get in any location at the best possible time - it's the going rate for your role in your environment.

What French clubs used to be willing to pay is no more relevant than what an Aussie super rugby team would pay, or what Glasgow would pay. But for some reason people only ever talk about the hypothetical French wages and never the lower wages on offer from other countries, probably because players stick to their domestic arrangements in most cases rather than do the Haskell/Marchant thing and play overseas for less money.

Yes, as I said, the salary cap is there for good reasons - but it is, nonetheless, a restriction that affects the market price. What France will pay is clearly more relevant, to Engand, than what Aus will pay, as they are, geographically, much closer.

This discussion never really focusses on what action the prem clubs may take to spite the RFU should they lose their practical monopoly on players.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:38 pm This discussion never really focusses on what action the prem clubs may take to spite the RFU should they lose their practical monopoly on players.

True - they'll fight tooth and nail to maintain it. Understandably.

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:27 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:17 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:59 pm

The imposition of a salary cap, whilst for good reasons, does artifically affect the market price of players. Restrictions on playing for foreign clubs also affects the market price - because English clubs aren't having to compete so much with foreign clubs.

The salary cap is there because otherwise the sport would be dominated by a couple of clubs with endless pockets and the rest would either have to pay a much lower set of wages or go bust trying to compete. The market price isn't the highest you could possibly get in any location at the best possible time - it's the going rate for your role in your environment.

What French clubs used to be willing to pay is no more relevant than what an Aussie super rugby team would pay, or what Glasgow would pay. But for some reason people only ever talk about the hypothetical French wages and never the lower wages on offer from other countries, probably because players stick to their domestic arrangements in most cases rather than do the Haskell/Marchant thing and play overseas for less money.

Yes, as I said, the salary cap is there for good reasons - but it is, nonetheless, a restriction that affects the market price. What France will pay is clearly more relevant, to Engand, than what Aus will pay, as they are, geographically, much closer.

Wales and Scotland are even closer.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:38 pm This discussion never really focusses on what action the prem clubs may take to spite the RFU should they lose their practical monopoly on players.

Is the problem lately, that the lack of control that the Union has over squads is now leading to very few EQ players in key positions like IC ?

The RFU can't exercise the level of control that the likes of the IRFU can, but it can bring in a system like JIFF to reduce the number of foreign players overall, & it can play with the EPS rules to put a bounty on certain positions if there's a lack of depth. With the loss of two teams worth of depth the problem isn't going away.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:54 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:27 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:17 pm

The salary cap is there because otherwise the sport would be dominated by a couple of clubs with endless pockets and the rest would either have to pay a much lower set of wages or go bust trying to compete. The market price isn't the highest you could possibly get in any location at the best possible time - it's the going rate for your role in your environment.

What French clubs used to be willing to pay is no more relevant than what an Aussie super rugby team would pay, or what Glasgow would pay. But for some reason people only ever talk about the hypothetical French wages and never the lower wages on offer from other countries, probably because players stick to their domestic arrangements in most cases rather than do the Haskell/Marchant thing and play overseas for less money.

Yes, as I said, the salary cap is there for good reasons - but it is, nonetheless, a restriction that affects the market price. What France will pay is clearly more relevant, to Engand, than what Aus will pay, as they are, geographically, much closer.

Wales and Scotland are even closer.

And they, of course, also affect the market price - as we'll see now that the salaries in Wales are dropping, and even more of their players look elsewhere - and with less 'restrictions' on their internationals.

England's 27-player squad to take on France in Six Nations
Forwards: Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 98 caps), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, 3 caps), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 12 caps), Ben Earl (Saracens, 15 caps), Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 46 caps), Jamie George (Saracens, 75 caps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 10 caps), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 65 caps), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 17 caps), David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, 3 caps), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 59 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 77 caps), Jack Walker (Harlequins, 2 caps), Jack Willis (Toulouse, 8 caps).

Backs: Henry Arundell (London Irish, 5 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 104 caps), Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 10 caps), Max Malins (Saracens, 17 caps), Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 14 caps), Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 3 caps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 54 caps), Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 20 caps), Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 20 caps), Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 50 caps), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps) Anthony Watson (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps).

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:30 pm England's 27-player squad to take on France in Six Nations
Forwards: Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 98 caps), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, 3 caps), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 12 caps), Ben Earl (Saracens, 15 caps), Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 46 caps), Jamie George (Saracens, 75 caps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 10 caps), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 65 caps), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 17 caps), David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, 3 caps), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 59 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 77 caps), Jack Walker (Harlequins, 2 caps), Jack Willis (Toulouse, 8 caps).

Backs: Henry Arundell (London Irish, 5 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 104 caps), Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 10 caps), Max Malins (Saracens, 17 caps), Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 14 caps), Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 3 caps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 54 caps), Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 20 caps), Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 20 caps), Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 50 caps), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps) Anthony Watson (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps).

Ford back to Sale and Lawes injured again, shoulder this time!!!

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:18 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:38 pm This discussion never really focusses on what action the prem clubs may take to spite the RFU should they lose their practical monopoly on players.

Is the problem lately, that the lack of control that the Union has over squads is now leading to very few EQ players in key positions like IC ?

The RFU can't exercise the level of control that the likes of the IRFU can, but it can bring in a system like JIFF to reduce the number of foreign players overall, & it can play with the EPS rules to put a bounty on certain positions if there's a lack of depth. With the loss of two teams worth of depth the problem isn't going away.

No, that's not the problem lately. There's large numbers of EQ players available at IC - you can go back a few pages when your claim was made by someone else and quickly debunked

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:18 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:38 pm This discussion never really focusses on what action the prem clubs may take to spite the RFU should they lose their practical monopoly on players.

Is the problem lately, that the lack of control that the Union has over squads is now leading to very few EQ players in key positions like IC ?

The RFU can't exercise the level of control that the likes of the IRFU can, but it can bring in a system like JIFF to reduce the number of foreign players overall, & it can play with the EPS rules to put a bounty on certain positions if there's a lack of depth. With the loss of two teams worth of depth the problem isn't going away.

I don't think there's any lack of English players in the Prem at all, for all our shortages at centre we're pretty stacked with flankers, fly halves and probably more so a few years ago second rows. I think a lot of it is cyclical and coincidence.

Wrong thread!!!

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:18 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:38 pm This discussion never really focusses on what action the prem clubs may take to spite the RFU should they lose their practical monopoly on players.

Is the problem lately, that the lack of control that the Union has over squads is now leading to very few EQ players in key positions like IC ?

The RFU can't exercise the level of control that the likes of the IRFU can, but it can bring in a system like JIFF to reduce the number of foreign players overall, & it can play with the EPS rules to put a bounty on certain positions if there's a lack of depth. With the loss of two teams worth of depth the problem isn't going away.

Not necessary. We're swimming in EQPs in all positions even supposed problem ones like Inside Centre and Tighthead. The issue is with how many of them look international quality/mismanagement. For example, Ollie Lawrence looks like exactly what we've need at 12 for a while and although injuries have admittedly hampered his availability, Eddie tried him, had the team set up to barely give him the ball and then just tossed him aside. Nick Tompkins looked like he wouldn't be outclassed at international level while playing for Sarries, yet we farted around with giving Piers Francis caps and squad places instead and Wales got their hooks into him.

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:36 pm Good to see in the middle of the worst recession in most people have ever seen and a cost of living crisis that they're getting their priorities right

I don't especially love what they're doing nor how they're doing it, but it is important to lots of people and they can do more than one thing (though one thing well in practice seems an issue)

Bigger thing looking at that image is I'll now be singing stop the boats, can't stop the boats to an Apollo 440 tune

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:45 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:36 pm Good to see in the middle of the worst recession in most people have ever seen and a cost of living crisis that they're getting their priorities right

I don't especially love what they're doing nor how they're doing it, but it is important to lots of people and they can do more than one thing (though one thing well in practice seems an issue)

Bigger thing looking at that image is I'll now be singing stop the boats, can't stop the boats to an Apollo 440 tune

Shit!!! Wrong thread...........sorry all

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:52 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:45 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:36 pm Good to see in the middle of the worst recession in most people have ever seen and a cost of living crisis that they're getting their priorities right

I don't especially love what they're doing nor how they're doing it, but it is important to lots of people and they can do more than one thing (though one thing well in practice seems an issue)

Bigger thing looking at that image is I'll now be singing stop the boats, can't stop the boats to an Apollo 440 tune

Shit!!! Wrong thread...........sorry all

Actually that could have been about the RFU

Telegraph

Marcus Smith is in serious consideration to start for England in a high-tempo game plan to be unleashed against France at Twickenham on Saturday.

It is understood the Harlequins fly-half is primed for a return to the starting XV in place of Owen Farrell following his man-of-the-match display for his club against Exeter Chiefs last Saturday.

While injury issues, including a fresh set-back to Courtney Lawes, who was expected to captain the side if Farrell was rotated to the bench, forced further selection debate, it is understood that the England management have been highly impressed by Smith’s impact in training since his return from his club.

If Smith starts, Ellis Genge, one of the two vice-captains, is likely to be handed the captaincy for England’s final competitive match at Twickenham before the World Cup in France later this year.

Farrell, however, would be expected to play a significant role off the bench in attempting to manage the second half if he does not start.

Believe when I see it - Can we have Arundell and Marchant as well please. if we're really going to go for it ?

“We have got alternatives,” Sinfield admitted. “You need to wait until the squad is announced but there are a couple of guys. Sladey can certainly kick. You won’t know this but Jack van Poortvliet can kick so there is bit behind there as well.”

This is the kind of thing that's sealing it IMO - increasingly seems as if the kicking is getting inside Faz's head, don't blame him for that but you can't play test rugby like that. If you're seriously talking about JvP kicking, who I assume has never kicked at goal in a pro game? Then you need to make a change.