NPR

Brazil wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:47 pm That was as pure an example of what happens when one pack gets the ascendency. The French pack couldn't put a foot wrong where's England were terribly disjointed.

Itoje, curry and ludlam went well. Steward was solid. The nines were poor. Smith was living off scraps. Outside backs didn't get a look in. It should be Slade's last test.

I thought Chessum was alright as well.

A lot of the less experienced players should have 10-20 caps more at this point. While some experienced guys should have less (Youngs being the most obvious example).

Ludlam gave away three braindead penalties and didn't get close to making any impact on their ball.

This is the best back row we've ever selected when it comes to work at the breakdown and, well, it didn't look like that today.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:08 pm Ludlam gave away three braindead penalties and didn't get close to making any impact on their ball.

This is the best back row we've ever selected when it comes to work at the breakdown and, well, it didn't look like that today.

This is the issue..theres no obvious selection fix here. Before the game I think most us were happy with the backrow.

Yep I'd think that has to be a real contender for worst ever defeat/performance. Absolutely humiliated throughout, in every aspect, across the pitch.

In terms of the team there is so much to put right - The ruck, whether that's the actual breakdown or the 9 controlling the ball. The set piece isn't great still. Defence is passive and porous. Attack is confused and chaotic. We lack accuracy. We lack control. We lack discipline. There is simply a lot on the ' to do list'.

Agree though that the crux of the issue goes beyond individuals. English rugby needs to take a hard look at itself and it's development of players. Others might disagree, but personally I think we're being left behind by others. The French and Irish cattle just seem to be of a different pedigree to ours currently - stronger, faster, they can play quicker, carry harder, hit harder, more disciplined, more accurate in their play and continue this over phases, better structured, better control... And I haven't even mentioned the Rugby skills..... Maybe it's a reflection of our struggling national team right now not being an ideal place for players to come into, but other systems seem to be doing better in preparing their guys and bridging the gap to the standards of test rugby.

Didn't watch the game, just saw the score.

Ouch, I actually feel sorry for you Poms.



The only positive is that this didn't happen against Ireland. This bored would've been unbearable for months, if not years.

troglodiet wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:30 pm Didn't watch the game, just saw the score.

Ouch, I actually feel sorry for you Poms.



The only positive is that this didn't happen against Ireland. This bored would've been unbearable for months, if not years.

There're only a couple of regulars on here, so it probably would've been just about tolerable. Though I suppose the swarm might've popped in from the other place just to gloat.

Your commiserations are appreciated.

I think one thing that has evidently hampered Borthwick is that he basically took over someone else's team and has limited ability to burn it down and start again, coupled with the fact that he had been exclusively concentrating on Leicester and whoever their next opponent was.

That's why I understand the Cole selection, with Stuart injured he basically smashed the glass and brought out someone who he knows inside out. Same with JVP.

It doesn't help that some stalwarts have dropped off a cliff and their replacements are either way too green or don't seem to be able to step up.

Sometimes the bored itself puts it more succinctly than I could

Maybe this has something to do with it.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3349850938611213

Should a training session ever leave players that knackered. Some of them could barely make it up the stairs.

Ovals wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:49 pm Maybe this has something to do with it.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3349850938611213

Should a training session ever leave players that knackered. Some of them could barely make it up the stairs.

That's immediately after a competitive Watt Bike session. Nothing unusual in not having much use of your legs for the following 20 minutes..

Appreciate not the immediate issue, but I wonder how these performances affect the commercial side of the game. AIUI commercial/sponsorship deals broadly follow world cup cycles, which would mean a lot of the current ones were entered into with the World Cup runners up who looked to be on an upward path. If I were Honda et al I'd be pretty fucked off with what I've got in return, and suspect that the next set of deals will be marked down a bit.
This is before we get to ticket sales. We know they were sluggish for this 6N and the autumn, and they only sold out for Italy by giving away lots of tickets to clubs and schools. People paid the best part of £200 a ticket yesterday, I suspect we may well see voting with feet which has fairly serious financial ramifications for the game.
This already happened for cricket - the Lords' test last year failed to sell out at £100+ a ticket, thankfully for the ECB their side then proceeded to reinvent the game with some absolute top tier entertainment. I don't think there's any prospect of the same happening in rugby.

What do we all reckon Borthwick will do against Ireland? Will he bring back players he's dropped, stick with the same team or tinker a bit?

He's backed himself into a corner really though he does have my sympathies as it's not all completely within his power to select who he wants. And, he inherited a complete goatfuck from Jones.

If I was Borthwick, I'd give the squad a load of rest this week, maybe run through some light unopposed work running phase patterns and set-piece strike moves but plenty of rest. Plenty of analysis and getting players to take responsibility for their performance or lack of required too though.

My team to play Ireland:

1. Genge
2. George
3. Stewart
4. Ribbans
5. Chessum
6. Willis
7. Earl
8. B. Vunipola
9. Mitchell
10. Farrell
11. Watson
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. OHC
15. Arundell

16. Walker
17. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Itoje
20. Ludlam
21. JVP
22. Smith
23. Malins

The scenes when the team sheet for this week reads:

9. Youngs
10. Ford
12. Farrell
13. Tuilagi

Largely the same again with whatever change is enforced if Lawrence is broken. Slade needs to go though. Happy for Farrell to play 12 as a 12 (which we actually saw signs of yesterday!)

No point making mass changes, you just lose the cohesion and that was basically the best team we could put out.

0-0 at Glaws after 25 minutes

The home side are picking Leicester’s pocket at the breakdown with ease

Best 0-0 I’ve ever seen.

Re: England, I’d send them on the piss for a day and give them a light week. There’s a decision to be made with guys like Dombrandt - does he see an England future for him? If yes give him another crack, if no try something else.

I would review every breakdown we got monstered on (thats almost all).

Old man Brown breaks the stalemate with a 1m pick and drive.

Wait 55 minutes for any kind of score and now it's 2 in quick succession.

First time Youngs has sniped effectively in a long old time. Good try and you’d think game over

Thought i'd watch the spectacle of running rugby that Quins - Bristol was sure to be rather than the 6N match. So far Bris are living up to that assumption, Quins look pretty woeful. Would expect much better even with their handful of absentees.

JMK, I would not recommend catching up with this game...

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:35 pm JMK, I would not recommend catching up with this game...

I've been keeping an eye on the stats + the Quins board. The stats say we've been fucking awful. The board says we've been fucking awful but it's all the ref's fault. C'est la vie.

Good little thread, this... (article's several years old, but some interesting comments)

Niegs wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 5:24 pm Good little thread, this... (article's several years old, but some interesting comments)

Yup, as I referred to the other day. He essentially sabotaged us. The single most toxic person to have been part of English professional rugby.

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:23 pm The scenes when the team sheet for this week reads:

9. Youngs
10. Ford
12. Farrell
13. Tuilagi

What's wrong with Ford? If I were English, I'd be picking him.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 6:47 pm

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:23 pm The scenes when the team sheet for this week reads:

9. Youngs
10. Ford
12. Farrell
13. Tuilagi

What's wrong with Ford? If I were English, I'd be picking him.

I think it's more of a collective thing with that selection. Youngs is (obviously) past his best, Ford hasn't yet demonstrated the kind of form he had before his achilles injury, Farrell is Farrell and Tuilagi is a shadow of his former self.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 6:47 pm

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:23 pm The scenes when the team sheet for this week reads:

9. Youngs
10. Ford
12. Farrell
13. Tuilagi

What's wrong with Ford? If I were English, I'd be picking him.

As said it's more about the combo, that after all that we'd be back to how we lined up 4 years ago. (and I actually think there is a possibility all of them are in the 23 next weekend).

Ford, if and when he is back at 100%, would be my 10. Tbh having seen every other combo we've served up in the last couple of years I'd unfortunately have to say Farrell at 12 next to him is still probably the best option - especially when it's next stop World Cup.

Will Collier (how much has he played this season) and Jonny Hill called up in forwards
Lawrence out and Guy Porter called up.

Collier has yet to play after a long injury layoff. He's a very very good scrummager and a potential alternative to Dan Cole but the timing seems daft - he can't possibly be a serious option for the next match and he needs time with his club.

Guy Porter... hoo boy.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Collier has yet to play after a long injury layoff. He's a very very good scrummager and a potential alternative to Dan Cole but the timing seems daft - he can't possibly be a serious option for the next match and he needs time with his club.

Guy Porter... hoo boy.

Collier is another player appallingly treated by Jones.

It's like the sport of Rugby is conducive to terrible things like CTE and brain damage from concussion, and you play it form more than ten years, you is fucked. Slow witted, depressed, blinkered, and recycling players into coaches after their brain is completely fucking mangled is a daft idea, as the sea of CTE they all swim in creeps up and cuts their balls off.

Are there any former boxers who made great boxing coaches?

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:35 am Will Collier (how much has he played this season) and Jonny Hill called up in forwards
Lawrence out and Guy Porter called up.

Not surprised, and sadly typical that anyone in great (eta: if that's not over-egging it, I'm including club form as well here) form gets crocked. At least he's made a good impression for when he returns.

Any word on Dan Kelly's recovery? (apols if missed in thread)

Line6 HXFX wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:02 pm It's like the sport of Rugby is conducive to terrible things like CTE and brain damage from concussion, and you play it form more than ten years, you is fucked. Slow witted, depressed, blinkered, and recycling players into coaches after their brain is completely fucking mangled is a daft idea, as the sea of CTE they all swim in creeps up and cuts their balls off.

Are there any former boxers who made great boxing coaches?

Freddie Roach, possibly the best boxing coach of all time, but you are now going to point out his Parkinson's disease

Please don't encourage the troll to post in this thread.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:47 pm Please don't encourage the troll to post in this thread.

Fair.

Unless the forwards drastically improve, it's a bit moot anyway, but I suspect our midfield is going to be horribly uncomplementary unless Borthers pulls a fast one and suddenly decides Marchant is worth including.

Smith - Tuilagi - Marchant or Smith - Farrell - Machant might do something, but we'll probably end up with Farrell - Porter - Slade or something.

The VERY best I can hope for next weekend is an absolute slugfest in the rain. Hopefully the Irish injuries will recover, but even with them down a few players, we need them to be making all the handling errors, rather than us for a change. Can someone get Dombrandt those sticky gloves you get?

I really don't see our backs making much of a difference. By the time it gets to them, the opposition forwards have done the damage on our ball, slowing to shit, and/or not having to commit numbers at the breakdown and making repeated dominant tackles, forcing shite box kicks off 9. On their ball, our backs seem to prefer missing tackles than making them, pinching in when the attack is clearly spreading to shift the ball wide quickly, or drifting off your man and letting someone race through the hole.

It's all bollocks.

Just noticed that Dingwall, freshly minted Prem player of the month, has been ditched. Presumably in favour of the just back from injury Porter, which is a depressing window into selection philosophy.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:54 pm Just noticed that Dingwall, freshly minted Prem player of the month, has been ditched. Presumably in favour of the just back from injury Porter, which is a depressing window into selection philosophy.

Dingwall is deceptively strong, he doesn't look massive but I've seen him put in a good number of reducers. Not that I'd advocate a meathead but a good physical defence would be a decent thing for England to have, going on last few showings.

I've already written off the French game as a bad memory but I'm still wincing over the van der Merwe try, he's a powerful lad but he's not exactly ickle-levels of agility and no-one laid a glove.