The Official English Rugby Thread

[inactionman]

So Chessum done for the season. Suffered a fracture dislocation of the left ankle at England training
Due to undergo surgery next week.
Hope it all goes well. He's been one of the better players for England this 6N

Ouch.

Real shame for him, he was very much a rare bright spot for England this 6N.

[fishfoodie]

So Chessum done for the season. Suffered a fracture dislocation of the left ankle at England training
Due to undergo surgery next week.
Hope it all goes well. He's been one of the better players for England this 6N

Scabnose & his coaches have learned nothing from the mistakes of Jones & his ilk

[sockwithaticket]

Hopefully it doesn't retire him as it did Sam Jones.

[Brazil]

So Chessum done for the season. Suffered a fracture dislocation of the left ankle at England training
Due to undergo surgery next week.
Hope it all goes well. He's been one of the better players for England this 6N

I hope this is a freak accident, and not the sort of training that Eddie used to indulge in.

[JM2K6]

Injuries can happen, the question is whether the training was appropriate. We know enough about Jones' methods to say that they were batshit.

[sockwithaticket]

Well it felt like there was tangibly more effort and commitment this week, but Ireland were shite for large stretches, so it's unclear exactly how much we stepped things up.

[tc27]

Forwards turned up this week. Ireland got stage fright but England played a part in that.

Smith obviously carrying the can for last week guess he wont start this side of the RWC.

[Oxbow]

The epitome of damning with faint praise, we were less shite than last week, that's about the best I've got.

[tc27]

The epitome of damning with faint praise, we were less shite than last week, that's about the best I've got.

They deserve some praise this week for nothing else than attitude particularly under the circumstances.
But it doesnt wipe the stain of capitulation from last week.

[el capitan]

That's been a fairly awful tournament, in my opinion.

The results and being behind some of the teams you can understand. Early days under a new coach things will take time. It's understandable if there is experimentation with tactics/selection to find something that works, and with one eye on the world cup and trying to find the right combinations.

But saying all that, we do need to put things in place quickly for the autumn and you'd hope we see some green shoots and signs for positivity. Well for me there hasn't been much on that front.

As a team in every aspect - attack, defence, set piece, discipline, forwards, back, whatever - I can't honestly say I've seen improved facets. In fact in some areas, especially defence, we've got worse I'd say. And whilst I don't mind adapting the gameplan to the opposition to try and get at them, it's had a feeling of tactics tombola at times. Like we're trying a new thing each week.

Individually have we learnt that much, ones you can confidently put a tick in the box next to? Maybe Ludlam and Willis, Chessum, possibly Lawrence. Not sure we've found out a great deal on the whole though.

Lot of work to do.

[Ovals]

That's been a fairly awful tournament, in my opinion.

The results and being behind some of the teams you can understand. Early days under a new coach things will take time. It's understandable if there is experimentation with tactics/selection to find something that works, and with one eye on the world cup and trying to find the right combinations.

But saying all that, we do need to put things in place quickly for the autumn and you'd hope we see some green shoots and signs for positivity. Well for me there hasn't been much on that front.

As a team in every aspect - attack, defence, set piece, discipline, forwards, back, whatever - I can't honestly say I've seen improved facets. In fact in some areas, especially defence, we've got worse I'd say. And whilst I don't mind adapting the gameplan to the opposition to try and get at them, it's had a feeling of tactics tombola at times. Like we're trying a new thing each week.

Individually have we learnt that much, ones you can confidently put a tick in the box next to? Maybe Ludlam and Willis, Chessum, possibly Lawrence. Not sure we've found out a great deal on the whole though.

Lot of work to do.

Whilst we were better today, much better, we still completely failed to get our wings involved in attack - we just appear incapable of getting the ball out wide with any space whatsoever. It's good that we've moved on from Nowell and May, but there's just not much point if all they are employed to do is field, and chase, kicks.

Our improvement today was mostly by reverting to the sort of game we played under Eddie. There was little to no creativity in the backline. Its a shame we lost Stweard, and were a man down, for the 2nd half - it pretty much put paid to any chance we had of moving the ball about.

Overall its been a disappointing tournament - we 've got rid of some deadwood but the performances have been much the same. I'm still inclined to give Borthers time - he inherited a godawful mess from EJ - it's unrealistic to expect the new guys to radically turn it around in a couple of months - but I'd liked to have see just a glimmer more hope !

I think we'll go into the RWC with a team that looks, and plays, much like the one we saw today - very conservatively with Farrell managing the game but providing little creativity. Hopefully, post the RWC, they'll get much more ambitious and a new team will emerge.

[Kawazaki]

Terrible performance by Peyper and the TMO.

This was totally missed...

[JM2K6]

Dogshit game by England. "Fought" hard and offered absolutely no threat with ball in hand outside of the maul. Scrapped a lot better than last week and that was it. Depressing shit, anti-rugby deservedly well beaten. Some players played quite well in isolation but fuck me what an appalling excuse for an international rugby team. Not even remotely interested in trying to put together an attack. And given we can't actually defend that well - the "worst" Irish defensive performance came from Sheehan who made 7 and missed 3, compared to Genge (9/4), Ribbans (12/4), Arudnell (2/3), Itoje (6/3), and Farrell (11/6!!) - this is a stategy with no future whatsoever. Ireland made loads of breaks, we made none. Ireland dominated territory and possession in both halves, not least because they kicked better and understood when not to kick. Irelanmd's discipline was better. Frankly, they looked like a Tier 1 team having a slight off day against a plucky but limited Tier 2 side.

[Paddington Bear]

Terrible performance by Peyper and the TMO.

This was totally missed...

They did not cover themselves in glory, feel pretty sour about it despite being aware we were always likely to lose

[tc27]

I hope Marcus Smith enjoyed his trip to Dublin.

Faz is undroppable until he goes to France for a retirement pot.

I am guessing we are back to praying Manu stays fit and then panicking when he isn't.

We are stuck in this doomloop for a while yet aren't we?

[Ovals]

I hope Marcus Smith enjoyed his trip to Dublin.

Faz is undroppable until he goes to France for a retirement pot.

I am guessing we are back to praying Manu stays fit and then panicking when he isn't.

We are stuck in this doomloop for a while yet aren't we?

Yeah - if you hadn't already, it's time to completely write off the RWC. Hopefully there'll be a reset once that is done and dusted - with quite a few players put out to pasture.

[Hal Jordan]

I see the Poison Dwarf has been gleefully putting the knife into Smith in his podcast claiming the only reason he was picked was because of media clamour after a couple of good games, and by extension Borthwick is a weak coach for giving in to the Press.

What a sour little fuck he is.

[sockwithaticket]

I hope Marcus Smith enjoyed his trip to Dublin.

Faz is undroppable until he goes to France for a retirement pot.

I am guessing we are back to praying Manu stays fit and then panicking when he isn't.

We are stuck in this doomloop for a while yet aren't we?

And not winning against decent sides in either situation.

[Kawazaki]

I hope Marcus Smith enjoyed his trip to Dublin.

Faz is undroppable until he goes to France for a retirement pot.

I am guessing we are back to praying Manu stays fit and then panicking when he isn't.

We are stuck in this doomloop for a while yet aren't we?

Yeah - if you hadn't already, it's time to completely write off the RWC. Hopefully there'll be a reset once that is done and dusted - with quite a few players put out to pasture.

If England managed to reach a RWC final in 2007 with that shitpot team then they can do it again, especially with a draw like they have. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

I fear the England ceiling is called Borthwick though.

[Paddington Bear]

Yes we’ve got huge potential at the world cup, largely thanks to the draw. The route to the final looks like beating:
Argentina
Japan
Samoa
Wales/Fiji/Georgia
One of the top 4 with them having played far more bruising games

[Ovals]

I hope Marcus Smith enjoyed his trip to Dublin.

Faz is undroppable until he goes to France for a retirement pot.

I am guessing we are back to praying Manu stays fit and then panicking when he isn't.

We are stuck in this doomloop for a while yet aren't we?

Yeah - if you hadn't already, it's time to completely write off the RWC. Hopefully there'll be a reset once that is done and dusted - with quite a few players put out to pasture.

If England managed to reach a RWC final in 2007 with that shitpot team then they can do it again, especially with a draw like they have. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

They do have a very favourable draw. Even with the one dimensional team we're likely to send, I guess we could definitely make the semis. Even up against a far better side in the semis, a bit of luck, and a stirring performance, can see you through.

It'll be pretty turgid though !!

[Paddington Bear]

Looks like there’ll be a red in the Prem Cup final.

Something very sad about the state of the sport when the ref calling for the TMO elicits cheers from the crowd, followed by the predictable pantomime boos.

[Paddington Bear]

Extra time coming up, cagey stuff

[Margin__Walker]

Extra time coming up, cagey stuff

Really cagey.

Exeter power game looking favourites at the moment after that second half. This LI team have been playing some great rugby in this competition so far this year, but have gone into their shell here.

Even without the benefit of hindsight, that pen from the scrum really should have gone for posts to put them 10 points up.

[Paddington Bear]

Steve Borthwick has warned that England’s players are not yet fit enough to compete at the World Cup but admits he does not have the power to address the problem before the squad reassembles for the pre-tournament camp this summer.

Ireland’s 29-16 victory over Borthwick’s side underscored their status as one of the World Cup favourites, with Andy Farrell’s side completing a fourth Grand Slam, and illustrated the amount of work England need to do.

Borthwick will attend a coaches’ conference over the next couple of days before conducting a full review of their Six Nations campaign – which yielded only two wins for the third successive year – on Wednesday.

And top of his list of priorities is to improve the conditioning of his players, insisting that while it improved during the course of the championship, ultimately cost them dearly.

“If you reflect on the Scotland game, which is the first one we played, and the last 20 minutes, you saw the drop off which is where Scotland then beat us,” said Borthwick.



“We have to make sure we get the condition of the players right and allow the players to come into camp in a really good condition so we can push on. We don’t want to spend the World Cup camp trying to get fit. We want to use the World Cup camp to get better.

“Once the players leave on Sunday and return to their clubs, we have no control over them. We will have conversations with the players and with their clubs so we can give what we would like but ultimately we don’t have any control over that.” –

“We will go through the whole Six Nations and what the key lessons are as a debrief and then next week I will be communicating with the DoRs [directors of rugby], head coaches and players. We have got to learn faster than anyone else.”

The RFU and Premiership club are set to open negotiations over a new professional game agreement next year including the release of players to national camp and Borthwick insists the current set-up has to change if England are to become a world force again.

“Conor O’Shea is working as the performance director and they are in early negotiations over the new PGA. Hopefully working together, Conor with the clubs, the RFU with the clubs and PRL, we will be able to develop a system that enables the club game to thrive and the international team to thrive.

"That is what we all want, we want a really competitive, vibrant Premiership rugby that produces the best possible players in a condition ready for Test rugby to be able to compete at the top of Test rugby. Because that is where we want to be. We don’t want multiple Six Nations with only a couple of wins. We want to be at the top of the championship.”


Clubs and country must get on same page to get England fit for World Cup
Of all the details of Steve Borthwick’s review of England’s Six Nations campaign, arguably the most damning will be the conclusion that he would not have employed the same game plan in the opening round defeat by Scotland had he known about the level of fitness of his players.

Borthwick had already begun drafting his review before Saturday’s 29-16 defeat by Ireland, which secured a historic fourth Grand Slam for Andy Farrell’s side and condemned England to a third successive championship of just two wins from five.

And one thing is certain is that it will be far more excoriating that the Rugby Football Union’s assessment at the end of last year’s campaign that they had been ‘encouraged by the solid progress’ in what proved to be Eddie Jones’ last in charge.

Given the hospital pass of Borthwick's 11th hour appointment in the World Cup cycle, this Six Nations was always going to be a baseline holding operation for England.

And, on a positive note, there was enough in the performance against Ireland to suggest that some progress has been made and some optimism, however seemingly fanciful, to be had going into the World Cup in France.

Forget the controversy and impact of Freddie Steward’s red card and the costly indiscipline of Jack Willis’ yellow card, there were moments when we got a glimpse of how a Borthwick side will play – direct, menacing and with tempo.

Word from inside the camp suggests that Owen Farrell was back to his commanding self last week, a reaction to the trauma of the mauling by France. Initial feedback is that the team were able to stick more rigidly to the game plan compared to the French defeat, when it fell apart alarmingly.

There were obvious improvements to the set-piece too, bringing back memories of England’s dominance there against Ireland at Twickenham despite the red card to Charlie Ewels.

On the hour mark, despite being undone by a rash of penalties, England remained in the hunt, only trailing 10-9, and had been able to force Ireland into making uncharacteristic errors, with the pressure of the occasion no doubt adding to the handling errors.

Ireland still had the class, wherewithal and pragmatism to ultimately ease to a comfortable victory, underscoring their status as the best side in the world.

But if England’s ability to stay in the fight for longer was a baby step forward, there can be no shying away from the fact that at this level, the players do not have the necessary conditioning to maintain their intensity for 80 minutes, particularly when the opposition are able to up the tempo, as Scotland did at Twickenham in the final quarter.

Given the resources available to both club and country, that is just not acceptable.

There is also much work to be done on expanding England’s so far limited attacking game under Borthwick. But that is the area, he insists, requires the most time.

Borthwick as a player still remembers the pain of England’s 36-0 defeat by South Africa in the pool stages of the 2007 World Cup, having started the game on the bench.

The following day the England squad held an emergency meeting, laying down some home truths to head coach Brian Ashton and his coaching team to establish greater clarity of thought and ambition. England reached the World Cup final, and came within an inch (or Mark Cueto’s toe) of becoming the first side to win back-to-back titles.

Right now England are facing a similar sliding-doors moment. Borthwick at least has more time than his predecessor Ashton.

But when he makes his presentation to the RFU board later this month about what is needed to improve the alignment between club and country and the preparation and development of players for Test rugby, they would do well to listen.

A similar finale to 2007 may yet be in England’s grasp
If it may be impossible to replicate Ireland’s centrally controlled system because of the fact the Premiership clubs are privately owned, France have demonstrated what is possible despite similar constraints.

At a time when rugby union is facing so many off-field challenges, both the clubs and the RFU should recognise that both parties will benefit from putting together an interim arrangement ahead of the new professional game agreement due next year to improve the chance of success for the national side, starting with an agreed conditioning programme for the players while they are back with their clubs.

“I have told the players, we have got to learn faster than anybody else,” said Borthwick. “We have to make sure we learn from this defeat to make sure we get better. We want to make sure we have a team that can compete at the World Cup.

“This debrief I want to go through now of the tournament is going to be integral to us going forward. What we've learned about all the players, we've learned about working with each other, what works, what doesn't work. What are the biggest areas of growth in us. Those are the things we're going to have to look at now.”

With a fair wind, there is still time for structures to be put in place. England have the benefit of a kind draw in the World Cup. If the winner seems likely to come from Ireland’s side of the draw, which includes France and New Zealand, a similar finale to 2007 may yet be in England’s grasp.

[SaintK]

Spoiler

Show

Steve Borthwick has warned that England’s players are not yet fit enough to compete at the World Cup but admits he does not have the power to address the problem before the squad reassembles for the pre-tournament camp this summer.

Ireland’s 29-16 victory over Borthwick’s side underscored their status as one of the World Cup favourites, with Andy Farrell’s side completing a fourth Grand Slam, and illustrated the amount of work England need to do.

Borthwick will attend a coaches’ conference over the next couple of days before conducting a full review of their Six Nations campaign – which yielded only two wins for the third successive year – on Wednesday.

And top of his list of priorities is to improve the conditioning of his players, insisting that while it improved during the course of the championship, ultimately cost them dearly.

“If you reflect on the Scotland game, which is the first one we played, and the last 20 minutes, you saw the drop off which is where Scotland then beat us,” said Borthwick.



“We have to make sure we get the condition of the players right and allow the players to come into camp in a really good condition so we can push on. We don’t want to spend the World Cup camp trying to get fit. We want to use the World Cup camp to get better.

“Once the players leave on Sunday and return to their clubs, we have no control over them. We will have conversations with the players and with their clubs so we can give what we would like but ultimately we don’t have any control over that.” –

“We will go through the whole Six Nations and what the key lessons are as a debrief and then next week I will be communicating with the DoRs [directors of rugby], head coaches and players. We have got to learn faster than anyone else.”

The RFU and Premiership club are set to open negotiations over a new professional game agreement next year including the release of players to national camp and Borthwick insists the current set-up has to change if England are to become a world force again.

“Conor O’Shea is working as the performance director and they are in early negotiations over the new PGA. Hopefully working together, Conor with the clubs, the RFU with the clubs and PRL, we will be able to develop a system that enables the club game to thrive and the international team to thrive.

"That is what we all want, we want a really competitive, vibrant Premiership rugby that produces the best possible players in a condition ready for Test rugby to be able to compete at the top of Test rugby. Because that is where we want to be. We don’t want multiple Six Nations with only a couple of wins. We want to be at the top of the championship.”


Clubs and country must get on same page to get England fit for World Cup
Of all the details of Steve Borthwick’s review of England’s Six Nations campaign, arguably the most damning will be the conclusion that he would not have employed the same game plan in the opening round defeat by Scotland had he known about the level of fitness of his players.

Borthwick had already begun drafting his review before Saturday’s 29-16 defeat by Ireland, which secured a historic fourth Grand Slam for Andy Farrell’s side and condemned England to a third successive championship of just two wins from five.

And one thing is certain is that it will be far more excoriating that the Rugby Football Union’s assessment at the end of last year’s campaign that they had been ‘encouraged by the solid progress’ in what proved to be Eddie Jones’ last in charge.

Given the hospital pass of Borthwick's 11th hour appointment in the World Cup cycle, this Six Nations was always going to be a baseline holding operation for England.

And, on a positive note, there was enough in the performance against Ireland to suggest that some progress has been made and some optimism, however seemingly fanciful, to be had going into the World Cup in France.

Forget the controversy and impact of Freddie Steward’s red card and the costly indiscipline of Jack Willis’ yellow card, there were moments when we got a glimpse of how a Borthwick side will play – direct, menacing and with tempo.

Word from inside the camp suggests that Owen Farrell was back to his commanding self last week, a reaction to the trauma of the mauling by France. Initial feedback is that the team were able to stick more rigidly to the game plan compared to the French defeat, when it fell apart alarmingly.

There were obvious improvements to the set-piece too, bringing back memories of England’s dominance there against Ireland at Twickenham despite the red card to Charlie Ewels.

On the hour mark, despite being undone by a rash of penalties, England remained in the hunt, only trailing 10-9, and had been able to force Ireland into making uncharacteristic errors, with the pressure of the occasion no doubt adding to the handling errors.

Ireland still had the class, wherewithal and pragmatism to ultimately ease to a comfortable victory, underscoring their status as the best side in the world.

But if England’s ability to stay in the fight for longer was a baby step forward, there can be no shying away from the fact that at this level, the players do not have the necessary conditioning to maintain their intensity for 80 minutes, particularly when the opposition are able to up the tempo, as Scotland did at Twickenham in the final quarter.

Given the resources available to both club and country, that is just not acceptable.

There is also much work to be done on expanding England’s so far limited attacking game under Borthwick. But that is the area, he insists, requires the most time.

Borthwick as a player still remembers the pain of England’s 36-0 defeat by South Africa in the pool stages of the 2007 World Cup, having started the game on the bench.

The following day the England squad held an emergency meeting, laying down some home truths to head coach Brian Ashton and his coaching team to establish greater clarity of thought and ambition. England reached the World Cup final, and came within an inch (or Mark Cueto’s toe) of becoming the first side to win back-to-back titles.

Right now England are facing a similar sliding-doors moment. Borthwick at least has more time than his predecessor Ashton.

But when he makes his presentation to the RFU board later this month about what is needed to improve the alignment between club and country and the preparation and development of players for Test rugby, they would do well to listen.

A similar finale to 2007 may yet be in England’s grasp
If it may be impossible to replicate Ireland’s centrally controlled system because of the fact the Premiership clubs are privately owned, France have demonstrated what is possible despite similar constraints.

At a time when rugby union is facing so many off-field challenges, both the clubs and the RFU should recognise that both parties will benefit from putting together an interim arrangement ahead of the new professional game agreement due next year to improve the chance of success for the national side, starting with an agreed conditioning programme for the players while they are back with their clubs.

“I have told the players, we have got to learn faster than anybody else,” said Borthwick. “We have to make sure we learn from this defeat to make sure we get better. We want to make sure we have a team that can compete at the World Cup.

“This debrief I want to go through now of the tournament is going to be integral to us going forward. What we've learned about all the players, we've learned about working with each other, what works, what doesn't work. What are the biggest areas of growth in us. Those are the things we're going to have to look at now.”

With a fair wind, there is still time for structures to be put in place. England have the benefit of a kind draw in the World Cup. If the winner seems likely to come from Ireland’s side of the draw, which includes France and New Zealand, a similar finale to 2007 may yet be in England’s grasp.

Who was the author?
Oh and what the actual fuck does Conor O'Shea get paid to do?

[JM2K6]

Ah, fitness was the problem. Righto.

[Brazil]

Ah, fitness was the problem. Righto.

Well, how else do you explain two linebreaks in 160 minutes of rugby? It's about fitness, and nothing else.

[JM2K6]

Ah, fitness was the problem. Righto.

Well, how else do you explain two linebreaks in 160 minutes of rugby? It's about fitness, and nothing else.

Yeah and everyone would be thrilled with England playing the way they did before losing against a Scotland team pootling along in 2nd gear.

However I'm sure it squares completely with Sinfield's admission we were fucked within 2 minutes of the France game and he had no clue why

[inactionman]

It's easier said than done, but Borthwick is exactly right that England/RFU need a much better, closer working engagement with the clubs.

Conor O’Shea is working as the [RFU] performance director … Hopefully working together, Conor with the clubs, the RFU with the clubs and PRL [Premiership Rugby], we will be able to develop a system that enables the club game to thrive, and the international team to thrive.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... and-talent

It's been discussed before, but I'd be interested in thoughts on what a better system would be.

At least it won't be the belligerent, antagonistic relationship Eddie seemed to almost desire, but it'll need more than best wishes.

[Paddington Bear]

Doesn't explain our attacking issues, sure, but seems pertinent to our tendency to fall apart in the last 20 minutes of winnable games? Which accounts for a hell of a lot of games over the last two years.

Don't know what to say structurally. In theory we have pretty solid academies/pipelines/pro leagues etc, and we don't lack for core elements of the success of other countries:
- Private schools (Ireland). We have far more than they do, though it seems the cluster of them round Dublin is a factor and I don't think any are sticking in the resources some of these Irish ones are. I.e. one of our representatives at that world schools tournament, Sedbergh, is much more focussed on cricket and that seems to be the case for a lot of similar schools for various reasons. However we know they can and do produce plenty of talent.
- Number and spread of pro sides and their academies (France). If anything our geographical spread is better. ProD2 and the size of a lot of their clubs is a point of difference for them of course. Our league has been the better in recent memory.
- Ability to poach (Ireland, France, Scotland). In this cycle the only out and out poaches I can think of are Ribbans and Heinz. Neither has been a major factor in the side. Nothing stopping us ramping this up to the levels others reach to cover what their systems can't produce if we really wanted to. Maybe we ought to be sending scouts round South African schools tapping anglophone tightheads on the shoulder and talking to them about the old country. Only half joking.

If we are to correlate our two brief periods of dominance in NH rugby since 2000, they coincide with English clubs setting standards that others struggle to keep up with (Leicester and Wasps in the first instance, Sarries and maybe Exeter in the second). How do we get back to that? I don't have a firm answer tbh, Sarries aren't going to hit the heights they did again for reasonably obvious reasons. It seems hard to see how English sides will outshine your Leinsters and the top French sides on a reduced salary cap, but raise it and you're asking to lose another club or two.

In the medium term the Prem will probably be fine and grow and develop. Questions remain over whether a lack of relegation is incubating styles of rugby not suited to the international game and whether the overall standard is giving us false ideas of where our players stand. Take back rowers, Simmonds, Dombrandt and Earl have all in different ways torn up the Premiership at points during this cycle. They barely have a good 80 minutes between them in an England shirt. Do we let them go to France? Well if we do the Prem clubs will understandably kick off, we weaken our own league and you get a situation where an otherwise excellent player like Willis put in a 1/10 performance for England six days after playing for Toulouse.

You would hope it is obvious to both sides that the success of England and the Premiership is symbiotic, which you'd like to think could hash out an agreement that looks something like:
- Improved access to players for the England squad, greater ability to select as they please
- No change to overseas selection rules
- Adjust payment structure to reward clubs for getting players in the squad AS WELL AS the club whose academy brought the player through
- RFU assist actively with marketing the clubs and their 'marquee' games. England Rugby social media has millions of followers - why aren't they trying to flog tickets to the Big Game for example?
- Clubs commit to EPS players going through England conditioning programmes throughout the year
- Fewer games to clash with internationals. Return of A XV to create a more cohesive programme, perhaps three games in the autumn played at rotating Premiership grounds to give revenue to them.


A final thought, and this relates more to the current crop than anything structural I hope, over the last couple of years there have been multiple games where it seemed like the players really didn't give a shit. Certainly it has taken something to wake them up into playing with any intensity, be it losing badly to 14 men in Australia, a red card v Ireland, being on the verge of humiliation v the ABs, realising Argentina wouldn't just roll over, shipping 50 to France etc. This will be denied to high heaven but its hard to pretend there isn't a pattern. Eddie was obviously a factor in this, the payment structure I don't think helps (make them win to get the big bucks), they've lacked a unifying purpose to buy into that a lot of other teams have, but I just have a sense as a squad they haven't gelled since 2019 and a lot of them don't really enjoy each other's company. I have no proof and we may never know.

[sockwithaticket]

Questions remain over whether a lack of relegation is incubating styles of rugby not suited to the international gam

Do they? France are the only tier one nation who actually have it and yet they're not the only national side who look better than us over the last 2-3 season.

[Paddington Bear]

Questions remain over whether a lack of relegation is incubating styles of rugby not suited to the international gam

Do they? France are the only tier one nation who actually have it and yet they're not the only national side who look better than us over the last 2-3 season.

URC isn’t directly comparable with the amount of player rotation that goes on. We’re in a middle ground between different types of league as a result. As I say, questions, I don’t have a firm take on this. On the one hand our sides increasingly lack bite, on the other as a consumer of the Prem I am entertained without fail every week.

[sockwithaticket]

Questions remain over whether a lack of relegation is incubating styles of rugby not suited to the international gam

Do they? France are the only tier one nation who actually have it and yet they're not the only national side who look better than us over the last 2-3 season.

URC isn’t directly comparable with the amount of player rotation that goes on. We’re in a middle ground between different types of league as a result. As I say, questions, I don’t have a firm take on this. On the one hand our sides increasingly lack bite, on the other as a consumer of the Prem I am entertained without fail every week.

Super Rugby doesn't have it either and while NZ aren't the dominant force they used to be, they still had us on toast for 70 minutes this autumn just gone and have finished the last few seasons with a winning record.

The main lack of bite is clearly up front and I think part of the issue lies in several of our more recently successful sides (Leicester, Sale, Exeter) buying in a bunch of South African (or Namibian or Zimbabwean) forwards to do all the tough stuff for them. I'm sure that enables some of the English forwards to focus less on carrying and do more of the 'technical' tight stuff like securing ball at resultant rucks.

We've also lacked response time to things like loose balls. It's tempting to put that down to 'hunger' or 'wanting it', in which case why do other teams want it or have more hunger in those situations than us?

[Paddington Bear]

Do they? France are the only tier one nation who actually have it and yet they're not the only national side who look better than us over the last 2-3 season.

URC isn’t directly comparable with the amount of player rotation that goes on. We’re in a middle ground between different types of league as a result. As I say, questions, I don’t have a firm take on this. On the one hand our sides increasingly lack bite, on the other as a consumer of the Prem I am entertained without fail every week.

Super Rugby doesn't have it either and while NZ aren't the dominant force they used to be, they still had us on toast for 70 minutes this autumn just gone and have finished the last few seasons with a winning record.

The main lack of bite is clearly up front and I think part of the issue lies in several of our more recently successful sides (Leicester, Sale, Exeter) buying in a bunch of South African (or Namibian or Zimbabwean) forwards to do all the tough stuff for them. I'm sure that enables some of the English forwards to focus less on carrying and do more of the 'technical' tight stuff like securing ball at resultant rucks.

We've also lacked response time to things like loose balls. It's tempting to put that down to 'hunger' or 'wanting it', in which case why do other teams want it or have more hunger in those situations than us?

Yep, which factors into my final point. Do our guys give a shit?

[ASMO]

Too many commentators wank over the Prem as being the best domestic competition when it clearly is not. The moment Prem teams go into Europe they pretty much perhaps with the exception of Saracens get wiped out. The entertainment factor in the Prem might be high, but the skill levels and general rugby nous is way behind the URC and France...the sooner people recognise that, the sooner something might change. This is reflected fully at international level.

[Kawazaki]

I suggested years ago, well before the salary scandal that any player that comes through a club's academy should be exempt from the salary cap if they stay with that club. The system is madness at the moment, clubs are penalised four times if they develop an England player through their academy;

1. The club lose their own player for half the season.
2. The club have to pay the newly capped England player more money for playing less.
3. The club have to recruit a player to replace their own academy product when he's not available.
4. The RFU payment doesn't even cover the extra wages the club has to pay the player let alone the cost of the replacement.

There's really very little incentive to take on the enormous costs and risk associated with academy development.

[petej]

Too many commentators wank over the Prem as being the best domestic competition when it clearly is not. The moment Prem teams go into Europe they pretty much perhaps with the exception of Saracens get wiped out. The entertainment factor in the Prem might be high, but the skill levels and general rugby nous is way behind the URC and France...the sooner people recognise that, the sooner something might change. This is reflected fully at international level.

The quality of play might not be the best but it is very competitive. They have clearly aimed towards a more American/nfl model for the league. The European comps with their daft structure are a bit shite.

[Brazil]

The sturm und drang about the decline of English rugby is reminiscent of the woe about the demise of English test cricket a few years ago where everyone said the game was structurally fucked and England would be in the doldrums for decades. One change of coach later and they were suddenly the best test side in the world revolutionising the way the game was played.

The England rugby team might not quite be on the brink of that sort of turn around, but I don't believe that there needs to be radical change throughout the game, or that the agreement with the clubs is particularly hindering the success of the national side (despite Borthwick's bleating). The premiership is a very competitive league, and whilst it's facing a tough future financially, I don't see the academy system failing particularly, though the pathway to England through the junior sides could probably be strengthened, and there needs to be some means of getting academy players more gametime. As far as the competitiveness in Europe is concerned, yes English teams have had a couple of fallow years, and it's URC and French teams that are dominant. However, when you look across the competition, it's the teams in those leagues that have the greatest pool of resources and are, to all intents and purposes, international sides in terms of what they can put out. Toulouse's squad is insane in terms of the quality it has concentrated in it, and the same is true of Leinster. For all the hype, Europe is pretty much a hiding to nothing for the majority of teams playing it, and I sense it's getting less attractive for fans.

What would be really nice would be for the coach to stop following narratives (Owen Farrell is the greatest leader of men since Napoleon and must be on the pitch, you can only win at the highest level by gifting the opposition possession), looking what the strengths of the premiership are and building a team round that. It might not generate success at first, but it would at least be enjoyable to watch and it might surprise a few people which, lets be honest, the shite that's been served up this tournament isn't going to do. Unfortunately, we're stuck with a coach who's crushingly rigid in his thinking and looks set to find excuses and deny reality in exactly the same way he did as captain.

[sockwithaticket]

Tbh I view the problem of over-paying England players and getting poor value out of them in terms of matches played to sit entirely on the heads of those running clubs. They should be giving pay offers commensurate with what the player delivers for the club and if minutes on the field are lacking due to international commitments, that comes baked into the offer. With the salary cap being where it is the majority of players don't actually have that much freedom to negotiate hugely lucrative moves to rivals

I'd suggest that there is an incentive to keep up academy development in that producing a constant conveyor belt of talent helps the negotiation position of the club with any stars who might be making unreasonable demands. Someone threatens to leave and you've got a replacement coming through the ranks.

Too many commentators wank over the Prem as being the best domestic competition when it clearly is not. The moment Prem teams go into Europe they pretty much perhaps with the exception of Saracens get wiped out. The entertainment factor in the Prem might be high, but the skill levels and general rugby nous is way behind the URC and France...the sooner people recognise that, the sooner something might change. This is reflected fully at international level.

The quality of play might not be the best but it is very competitive. They have clearly aimed towards a more American/nfl model for the league. The European comps with their daft structure are a bit shite.

And fun.

Until the RFU stump up the amount of cash to turn it into a dedicated feeder competition for the national side, all it's stakeholders need to produce is an engaging competition and they are delivering on that front.