NPR

notfatcat wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:17 am

Kawazaki wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:57 pm Quins have got 57% more rugby schools feeding their academy than Saracens have got. Don't kid yourself, it's pretty average fare that Quins have been churning out. Bang average in fact.

Current Eng U20 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x5
(150% more players)

Current Eng U18 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x7
(350% more players)

And then where it really counts;

2023 6Ns England squad -

Saracens academy x6
Quins academy x3

Just to join in this tedious argument.
2023 England U18's Saints 4
2023 England squad Saints 4
Anymore for anymore?

U18 Academy League Champions (beating Saints, Sarries and Quins on the way) - London Irish

This is fun

The idea that Sarries' academy is better than anyone else's is a bit of a stretch. They've had one generational group come through together, but the likes of George, Farrell, Kruis etc. are all getting on a bit and since then it's been the odd exceptional player and some Prem level pros just like pretty much every other club which suggests that core group coming through at the same time was more luck than anything else.

Similarly, though to a slightly lesser extent, Exeter had the likes of Nowell, Slade, Cowand-Dickie and Simmonds all come through at the same time, but nothing quite like that group since. Sometimes you just happen to get a particularly strong crop of players.

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:06 am The idea that Sarries' academy is better than anyone else's is a bit of a stretch. They've had one generational group come through together, but the likes of George, Farrell, Kruis etc. are all getting on a bit and since then it's been the odd exceptional player and some Prem level pros just like pretty much every other club which suggests that core group coming through at the same time was more luck than anything else.

Similarly, though to a slightly lesser extent, Exeter had the likes of Nowell, Slade, Cowand-Dickie and Simmonds all come through at the same time, but nothing quite like that group since. Sometimes you just happen to get a particularly strong crop of players.

I haven't said Saracens academy is better. I'm saying that the Quins academy is underperforming given it has such an enormous advantage regards the school catchment numbers it controls.

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:34 am

notfatcat wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:17 am

Kawazaki wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:57 pm Quins have got 57% more rugby schools feeding their academy than Saracens have got. Don't kid yourself, it's pretty average fare that Quins have been churning out. Bang average in fact.

Current Eng U20 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x5
(150% more players)

Current Eng U18 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x7
(350% more players)

And then where it really counts;

2023 6Ns England squad -

Saracens academy x6
Quins academy x3

It's true that the Saracens academy of 10+ years ago had a glut of fine players though it's a shame from a 6N perspective that both Malins and Earl were turfed out by the end of the tournament, leaving just Isiekwe to carry the torch for modern day academy.

Margin__Walker wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:58 am U18 Academy League Champions (beating Saints, Sarries and Quins on the way) - London Irish

This is fun

Ashton stopped just short on 99 by Hogg’s covering tackle. Dickson currently talking himself into giving a bizarre penalty try and red

Players dive onto tackled but still moving players all the time.

How is this even a penalty?!

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:11 pm Ashton stopped just short on 99 by Hogg’s covering tackle. Dickson currently talking himself into giving a bizarre penalty try and red

Yep. Strange as the Exeter player didn't dive on top at all but went to ground and slid into contact. Bullshit card and penalty try.

Ashton gets his 100th try.

And Ashton tons up. No splash alas. What a man

Rugby Union has created refereeing monsters.

No doubt that the red has ruined what was a competitive game, this is a procession and not a particularly interesting one

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:32 pm No doubt that the red has ruined what was a competitive game, this is a procession and not a particularly interesting one

Happens too often.

petej wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:36 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:32 pm No doubt that the red has ruined what was a competitive game, this is a procession and not a particularly interesting one

Happens too often.

Yeah I’ve not been too sympathetic to a lot of the ‘what are we supposed to do?’ style stuff from players who’ve smacked someone in the head but the game is increasingly resembling a lottery. I really hope they sort it out ASAP as the world cup should theoretically be a cracker

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:39 pm

petej wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:36 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:32 pm No doubt that the red has ruined what was a competitive game, this is a procession and not a particularly interesting one

Happens too often.

Yeah I’ve not been too sympathetic to a lot of the ‘what are we supposed to do?’ style stuff from players who’ve smacked someone in the head but the game is increasingly resembling a lottery. I really hope they sort it out ASAP as the world cup should theoretically be a cracker

This one though wasn't anything like that just the ref being special. Ashton on 101 now.

petej wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:43 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:39 pm

petej wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:36 pm

Happens too often.

Yeah I’ve not been too sympathetic to a lot of the ‘what are we supposed to do?’ style stuff from players who’ve smacked someone in the head but the game is increasingly resembling a lottery. I really hope they sort it out ASAP as the world cup should theoretically be a cracker

This one though wasn't anything like that just the ref being special. Ashton on 101 now.

Dickson is a uniquely poor ref which doesn’t help, only Adamson is in the same bracket

petej wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:20 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:11 pm Ashton stopped just short on 99 by Hogg’s covering tackle. Dickson currently talking himself into giving a bizarre penalty try and red

Yep. Strange as the Exeter player didn't dive on top at all but went to ground and slid into contact. Bullshit card and penalty try.

Ashton gets his 100th try.

Anyone got a link to a clip of this. The exeter lads are going nuts on social media

Got it. That's fucking ridiculous

That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

ASMO wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:55 pm That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:42 am
I haven't said Saracens academy is better. I'm saying that the Quins academy is underperforming given it has such an enormous advantage regards the school catchment numbers it controls.

Might I just clarify something (@ all of you)? Is this still very much non-state schools?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:15 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:42 am
I haven't said Saracens academy is better. I'm saying that the Quins academy is underperforming given it has such an enormous advantage regards the school catchment numbers it controls.

Might I just clarify something (@ all of you)? Is this still very much non-state schools?

My understanding is that its schools that take rugby seriously, which obviously has a very very strong private bias. State schools with a proper rugby programme like RGS High Wycombe would be included unless I’ve missed something

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:07 pm

ASMO wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:55 pm That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:46 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:07 pm

ASMO wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:55 pm That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

Sarries yesterday against Saints down to 14 after 8 minutes and were pressing hard for a win at the end with a 2nd/3rd team
Were hauling Saints in most of the 2nd half

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:46 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:07 pm

ASMO wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:55 pm That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

The ref ruined the match. Did you watch what actually happened?

FFS.

SaintK wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 5:31 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:46 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:07 pm

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

Sarries yesterday against Saints down to 14 after 8 minutes and were pressing hard for a win at the end with a 2nd/3rd team
Were hauling Saints in most of the 2nd half

Yep, watched that game and it was at the forefront of my mind, but also games like 3rd Aus-France test in 2021 where Koroibete got carded in the 5th minute and Aus still won.

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 5:43 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:46 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:07 pm



The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

The ref ruined the match. Did you watch what actually happened?

FFS.

No he didn't, yes I did.

To reiterate, we have numerous examples over the last several years of red cards not spoiling games. So where a team gets absolutely torn to shreds after a red card is issued, that seems like much more of an issue with the team than the card.

That's not to say it was a legitimate card, it was a baffling interpretation of the law from Dickson, but once it was issued Exeter only have themselves to blame for how they responded.

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:46 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:07 pm

ASMO wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:55 pm That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

This seems to be something you and jmk are adamant about. I haven’t seen stats for it but it instinctively feels utter bollocks. Reds ruin games

England U18s just wrecked Ireland U18s 14 - 56 in the U18 6N. Seriously easy on the eye performance. Worth watching for Kepu Tuipulotu's first try alone, but lots of other lovely play in there.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:33 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:15 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:42 am
I haven't said Saracens academy is better. I'm saying that the Quins academy is underperforming given it has such an enormous advantage regards the school catchment numbers it controls.

Might I just clarify something (@ all of you)? Is this still very much non-state schools?

My understanding is that its schools that take rugby seriously, which obviously has a very very strong private bias. State schools with a proper rugby programme like RGS High Wycombe would be included unless I’ve missed something

Thanks

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:24 pm Rugby Union has created refereeing monsters.

Worryingly I am in agreement. Maybe it's the inevitable when you start with unnecessarily complicated laws which also award point scoring penalties for ridiculous, minor infringements and then decide the way to improve things is do more of the same, more often by continuously changing.

I would imagine rugby has had more law changes in 1 year than football has in a century. And WR wonders why it's not catching on

Slick wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 6:17 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:46 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:07 pm



The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

This seems to be something you and jmk are adamant about. I haven’t seen stats for it but it instinctively feels utter bollocks. Reds ruin games

Because we keep getting example after example of the card not ruining games.

Here's a stat though, prior to today

Also it's worth remembering this was a second yellow, so not entirely relevant to the normal moaning about red cards.

I want to see a game with 15 v 15.

15 v 14 is a match ruined. It compromises the team a player down massively and fatigues the rest of the remaining players who often get further sin-bin sanctions placing further strain on fitness.

It's bullshit and it's not working.

You want yellow cards to go away too? And we're just going to ignore all the games where a red didn't significantly alter things?

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:13 pm You want yellow cards to go away too? And we're just going to ignore all the games where a red didn't significantly alter things?

I think there is a case that for a second yellow player gets sent off and can be replaced after 20 mins.

I've just caught a clip of the tackle, it's utterly routine and I can't see how it warranted a card. Although I can see a line of reasoning that he had to give a card if he gave a penalty, as it was (in his judgment) foul play that prevented a score.

Maybe we just need to give the directive to refs to use cards more sparingly, for clear, obvious and exceptional acts - not ones that are not even called penalties in 95% of cases.

On that note, I'd really prefer to see fewer scrum cards (and, indeed, penalties), it shouldn't be a sanctionable offence to just be beaten by a better team/player. Losing binds or dropping is generally an effect of being beaten, it's not actually the offence.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 8:10 pm

Slick wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 6:17 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:46 pm

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

This seems to be something you and jmk are adamant about. I haven’t seen stats for it but it instinctively feels utter bollocks. Reds ruin games

Because we keep getting example after example of the card not ruining games.

Here's a stat though, prior to today

That's a damning indictment of how little space there is in rugby and how poorly players manage the extra man. I'm a little surprised those numbers are quite as "bad" as that in England. In T14, we regularly see sides lose with the man advantage because their use of space is not just abysmal, but the reverse i.e. with the extra man, they go into truck-to-ruck mode which makes defending even easier than when the penalised side had 15 men

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 8:44 pm I want to see a game with 15 v 15.

15 v 14 is a match ruined. It compromises the team a player down massively and fatigues the rest of the remaining players who often get further sin-bin sanctions placing further strain on fitness.

It's bullshit and it's not working.

No. It does not. If we didn't have infinite, rolling subs then yes, you'd be right. But that, coupled with the ease of ability for the reduced side to slow the game down at every opportunity (interminable scrums, crawling to lineouts etc) means it's nowhere near as tiring as it ought to be.