NPR

& Remember folks,

Giving nurses, teachers, train drivers et al a living wage increase to combat rampant profiteering = bad and causes inflation.

Giving Bankers unlimited obscene bonuses for extreme profiteering in a financial crisis = fine and doesn't cause inflation.

I've been reading this thread with interest but struggling to keep up.

Please, treat this question as an uneducated trying to simplify things.

Are we essentially saying?:

Most UK businesses are in debt
Increasing interest rates increase the cost of their debt
This means they need to put their prices up
This drives inflation up

So all this policy is really achieving is helping those who have cleared their mortgage and have savings?

C T wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:41 am I've been reading this thread with interest but struggling to keep up.

Please, treat this question as an uneducated trying to simplify things.

Are we essentially saying?:

Most UK businesses are in debt
Increasing interest rates increase the cost of their debt
This means they need to put their prices up
This drives inflation up

So all this policy is really achieving is helping those who have cleared their mortgage and have savings?

As someone who has cleared their mortgage, I resemble that post sentiment

C T wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:41 am I've been reading this thread with interest but struggling to keep up.

Please, treat this question as an uneducated trying to simplify things.

Are we essentially saying?:

Most UK businesses are in debt
Increasing interest rates increase the cost of their debt
This means they need to put their prices up
This drives inflation up

So all this policy is really achieving is helping those who have cleared their mortgage and have savings?

Yes, because they vote Tory for the most part. Why benefit anyone else? What political capital is there to be gained? Better to punish the unbelievers until they see the error of their ways.

If Labour get in, how will they lower inflation? Raise taxes? Borrow like students?

Even for those that are Mortgage debt free, the increased rates are also supposed to encourage saving rather than spending.

The problem is the Banks are again "slow" to raise the interest they pay on savings accounts. I have 2 Barclays savings accounts; they have not increased the % interest on either for any of the recent 13 interest-rate rises in a row, they have however used the BOE rises to justify credit card rate increases, no problem.

So that's all-fucking bollocks too.

Chase, however, to their credit, have increased rates on both current and savings accounts on each occasion.
Time to do the full switch soon me thinks.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:04 am If Labour get in, how will they lower inflation? Raise taxes? Borrow like students?

Raising taxes can have a very similar effect to raising interest rates, in terms of reducing disposable income. That then reduces demand side and in theory helps to bring inflation down. However most of the inflation hasn't been caused by demand side. It also has the advantage that if you use the increased taxation income in the correct way, that spending is counted as GDP so it helps to avoid technical recession whilst also creating jobs if you are for example building new infrastructure or employing more people in public service. Finally, tax increases work immediately, where as interest rate rises take 18 months to have an effect.

C T wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:41 am I've been reading this thread with interest but struggling to keep up.

Please, treat this question as an uneducated trying to simplify things.

Are we essentially saying?:

Most UK businesses are in debt
Increasing interest rates increase the cost of their debt
This means they need to put their prices up
This drives inflation up

So all this policy is really achieving is helping those who have cleared their mortgage and have savings?

I used to work as an agricultural fencing contractor, I got a lot of work through a guy who ran a farm services business, his business can be used as a microcosm of what is happening across the UK at the moment.

He supplied fencing contractors (me), milking staff, sheep shearers, tractor drivers etc to farms around East and West Sussex. Another Farm Services guy I worked for also supplied forestry services and other things such as road side hedge cutting to the local council.
This only works if everyone pays each other on time. The farmers need to sell grain and livestock in order to pay for the services provided. The council and landowners need to have funds to pay for the services they hire. It's all a bit precarious, if someone goes into debt they have to service that as well as meet their normal commitments. If people like me don't get paid we go elsewhere, but we are the bottom of the food chain and we need to out and find work. If my boss doesn't get paid he can't pay me, if the markets are poor the farmer can't pay or meet their debt payments. We had thousands of pounds credit with fence wire suppliers and sawmills for posts. The these suppliers don't get paid they are in trouble and have to think of their staffing levels.

I used the word precarious, if something in the chain goes tits up there is a real risk of contagion. At the moment nearly third of SMEs - small to medium sized enterprises - are at dangerous levels of debt. In numbers it's around 1.5 million businesses. The knock on effects could be really bad if insolvencies rise - at the moment 61% of SMEs are finding business customers unable to pay their debts to them

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:08 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:04 am If Labour get in, how will they lower inflation? Raise taxes? Borrow like students?

Raising taxes can have a very similar effect to raising interest rates, in terms of reducing disposable income. That then reduces demand side and in theory helps to bring inflation down. However most of the inflation hasn't been caused by demand side. It also has the advantage that if you use the increased taxation income in the correct way, that spending is counted as GDP so it helps to avoid technical recession whilst also creating jobs if you are for example building new infrastructure or employing more people in public service. Finally, tax increases work immediately, where as interest rate rises take 18 months to have an effect.

If I knew that the Govt would put the extra money directly into Large Infrastructure Projects, I'd be happy to pay a couple of extra % of tax this year & next.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:09 am

C T wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:41 am I've been reading this thread with interest but struggling to keep up.

Please, treat this question as an uneducated trying to simplify things.

Are we essentially saying?:

Most UK businesses are in debt
Increasing interest rates increase the cost of their debt
This means they need to put their prices up
This drives inflation up

So all this policy is really achieving is helping those who have cleared their mortgage and have savings?

I used to work as an agricultural fencing contractor, I got a lot of work through a guy who ran a farm services business, his business can be used as a microcosm of what is happening across the UK at the moment.

He supplied fencing contractors (me), milking staff, sheep shearers, tractor drivers etc to farms around East and West Sussex. Another Farm Services guy I worked for also supplied forestry services and other things such as road side hedge cutting to the local council.
This only works if everyone pays each other on time. The farmers need to sell grain and livestock in order to pay for the services provided. The council and landowners need to have funds to pay for the services they hire. It's all a bit precarious, if someone goes into debt they have to service that as well as meet their normal commitments. If people like me don't get paid we go elsewhere, but we are the bottom of the food chain and we need to out and find work. If my boss doesn't get paid he can't pay me, if the markets are poor the farmer can't pay or meet their debt payments. We had thousands of pounds credit with fence wire suppliers and sawmills for posts. The these suppliers don't get paid they are in trouble and have to think of their staffing levels.

I used the word precarious, if something in the chain goes tits up there is a real risk of contagion. At the moment nearly third of SMEs - small to medium sized enterprises - are at dangerous levels of debt. In numbers it's around 1.5 million businesses. The knock on effects could be really bad if insolvencies rise - at the moment 61% of SMEs are finding business customers unable to pay their debts to them

Christ, it's a ticking timebomb!

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:04 am If Labour get in, how will they lower inflation? Raise taxes? Borrow like students?

Tax the fuck out of Non-Doms !

This will:
- Remove the worst right wing Press owners
- Push the dirty Russian money out of Londongrad
- Send a lot of the Tories running for cover
- Raise some money

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:20 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:04 am If Labour get in, how will they lower inflation? Raise taxes? Borrow like students?

Tax the fuck out of Non-Doms !

This will:
- Remove the worst right wing Press owners
- Push the dirty Russian money out of Londongrad
- Send a lot of the Tories running for cover
- Raise some money

Aggressively go after the fraud associated with COVID pay outs and sequestrate all assets of those guilty of dishonesty.
Hancock et al and all those dodgy bastards need to put under a microscope.

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:52 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:20 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:04 am If Labour get in, how will they lower inflation? Raise taxes? Borrow like students?

Tax the fuck out of Non-Doms !

This will:
- Remove the worst right wing Press owners
- Push the dirty Russian money out of Londongrad
- Send a lot of the Tories running for cover
- Raise some money

Aggressively go after the fraud associated with COVID pay outs and sequestrate all assets of those guilty of dishonesty.
Hancock et al and all those dodgy bastards need to put under a microscope.

It seems like there's a fair overlap between the COVID fradsters and the wealthy non-doms.

One Michelle Mone, for example.

I'd very much enjoy seeing these shysters get a good going over, but I can't see it happening.

C T wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:41 am I've been reading this thread with interest but struggling to keep up.

Please, treat this question as an uneducated trying to simplify things.

Are we essentially saying?:

Most UK businesses are in debt
Increasing interest rates increase the cost of their debt
This means they need to put their prices up
This drives inflation up

So all this policy is really achieving is helping those who have cleared their mortgage and have savings?

It's mostly been me I guess. But I've just focused on the reaction (rising interest rates), a broader overview explains more. To keep the post shorter any terms that aren't clear, will be easily explained by Google.

1. There's increasing inflation. There's no real disagreement that this is supply side generated (the cost of inputs rising and supply chain issues, or put another way Covid/Ukraine/Brexit, making goods more expensive). Insane Homer made a good post up the thread the other day, that because this inflation is supply side generated and not demand side (increasing wages are used to compete for the same amount of supply and pull prices higher), this will all disappear from the economy in time, so it's questionable if raising interest rates regardless of the type of inflation that's occurring is actually the correct course of action. Danny Blanchflower and Adam Posen, are two economists that have both been on the BoE's interest rate setting Monetary Policy Committee, both hold this view, and both are especially critical of how little Brexit is mentioned.

2. The orthodox/neoliberal/Thatcherite (any of these describe it) response to rising inflation is to raise interest rates. To incentivise saving and force those with debt to spend more servicing that debt, this takes money out of the economy (decreasing demand). Not everyone is hit equally by this, anyone without a mortgage and with savings, does better in absolute and relative terms. The opposite happens to anyone with a mortgage and with no savings, they get poorer in absolute and relative terms. Andrew Bailey (governor of the BoE) mentions the "wage-price spiral" to justify interest rate rises. The wage-price spiral is a feedback loop of wages rising, which pulls prices up, which means wages rise, etc. It's a theory that explains demand side inflation, which is heavily criticised by the left (they think it's used to suppress wages) and the right (they argue inflation arises from increasing money supply, hence their love of gold etc).

Regardless there's no real argument that this inflation is supply side generated, and the response has been demand side.

3. My observation is that the increased cost of servicing debt is being pushed onto higher prices. The orthodox/neoliberal/Thatcherite view is that this is impossible, because the market sets the price. If a burger costs £2 to make it can not be sold for any price the business chooses (in other words costs cannot be passed on), instead an interplay of supply (how many burgers are available on the market and their production cost) and demand (how many people desire burgers and how much spending power they have) dictates the price, basically if the burger seller decides to set the price at £10 they sell no burgers if the market is pricing burgers at £3-£5. This doesn't take into account many factors, but most importantly how much of a monopoly the business has and therefore how hard it is to compete against it. If a business has sunk costs into the billions and has a very large slice of a market, then they're more able to dictate a burger does now cost £10, because the market and the business are strongly overlapping entities. Which is basically what Primark have done. And given the amount of debt all businesses are carrying there's also market incentive to push additional debt servicing costs into prices (if it's a competitive market, without much monopolisation, but most participants increase prices to service debt then that is the market price). The assumption when the orthodox/neoliberal/Thatcherite viewed was formed, was that there wouldn't be free money for a decade and a half that shaped the entire economy.

You can find a lot in the media on 1 and 2, nothing on 3 though. 2 is what you'll mostly hear about. In my opinion core inflation rising whilst both supply side inflation declines and interest rates have been rising for over a year, is mostly about 3. I could be wrong, this is complex stuff. But the BoE modelling/forecasts they use to set rates have been wrong already.

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:52 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:20 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:04 am If Labour get in, how will they lower inflation? Raise taxes? Borrow like students?

Tax the fuck out of Non-Doms !

This will:
- Remove the worst right wing Press owners
- Push the dirty Russian money out of Londongrad
- Send a lot of the Tories running for cover
- Raise some money

Aggressively go after the fraud associated with COVID pay outs and sequestrate all assets of those guilty of dishonesty.
Hancock et al and all those dodgy bastards need to put under a microscope.

Meh, London's financial inductry is built on washing cash for The Rich and the Dodgy. Never happen.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... stry-group

The UK’s post-Brexit border strategy risks further pushing up food prices, according representatives of Britain’s fresh produce industry.

Traders in the food supply chain are warning they will not be able to absorb the extra cost of charges levied for import checks on goods entering the country from the EU and the rest of the world, due to be introduced in the new year.

Estimated additional annual costs of more than £10m stemming from import charges would have to be passed on to consumers, fuelling food inflation just as prices are thought to have peaked.

I can't wait to see how another interest rate rise balances this one.

Are we now getting to the reverse Brexit to lower inflation territory? This could really give the Lib Dems a drum to beat at the next election if they frame it correctly.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 2:07 pm https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... stry-group

The UK’s post-Brexit border strategy risks further pushing up food prices, according representatives of Britain’s fresh produce industry.

Traders in the food supply chain are warning they will not be able to absorb the extra cost of charges levied for import checks on goods entering the country from the EU and the rest of the world, due to be introduced in the new year.

Estimated additional annual costs of more than £10m stemming from import charges would have to be passed on to consumers, fuelling food inflation just as prices are thought to have peaked.

I can't wait to see how another interest rate rise balances this one.

Are we now getting to the reverse Brexit to lower inflation territory? This could really give the Lib Dems a drum to beat at the next election if they frame it correctly.

The imposition of the belated Brexit checks, tariffs etc extends beyond just foodstuffs. These are due to be implemented from late this year and they will have a real inflationary factor on UK economy. More worryingly many EU suppliers might just not bother going through hassle and expense of getting through UK customs and queues at ports etc and just stop delivering to the UK. We could see significant shortages in a range of goods from the EU plus those that do bother will be hit with tariffs and much more expensive customs and transport costs. It is no wonder the UK Gov have delayed their implementation for years and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they are postponed again to a date after the next General Election. Brexit is just a shit that will never be flushed away and will continue to stink the UK toilet forever.

_Os_ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:38 am 3. My observation is that the increased cost of servicing debt is being pushed onto higher prices. The orthodox/neoliberal/Thatcherite view is that this is impossible, because the market sets the price. If a burger costs £2 to make it can not be sold for any price the business chooses (in other words costs cannot be passed on), instead an interplay of supply (how many burgers are available on the market and their production cost) and demand (how many people desire burgers and how much spending power they have) dictates the price, basically if the burger seller decides to set the price at £10 they sell no burgers if the market is pricing burgers at £3-£5. This doesn't take into account many factors, but most importantly how much of a monopoly the business has and therefore how hard it is to compete against it. If a business has sunk costs into the billions and has a very large slice of a market, then they're more able to dictate a burger does now cost £10, because the market and the business are strongly overlapping entities. Which is basically what Primark have done. And given the amount of debt all businesses are carrying there's also market incentive to push additional debt servicing costs into prices (if it's a competitive market, without much monopolisation, but most participants increase prices to service debt then that is the market price). The assumption when the orthodox/neoliberal/Thatcherite viewed was formed, was that there wouldn't be free money for a decade and a half that shaped the entire economy.

The Resolution Foundation are a New Labour leaning thinktank, you'll see them quoted quite regularly in the media. Like New Labour and Starmer they're very much in agreement with the above orthodox/neoliberal/Thatcherite view of things (prices are set by the market through supply and demand alone). Which leads to comments like this (by Resolution Foundation CEO) which simply put are total bullshit.



Another way of putting this is that wages are rising faster than rents, and pulling rents up with them (same amount of supply + additional demand from higher wages = higher rents). But that's not what's happening, instead it's what I described. Most landlords have higher debt servicing costs, so that cost is pushed into the rental price and that also becomes the market price.

I do wonder how they explain food banks and the rest if everyone is swimming in wage increases and driving rental prices higher.

Bell's mistake there is he's making the assumption that housing operates as a free market. It doesn't, because the supply side has massive barriers to entry and supply is not changed by market conditions.

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 2:27 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 2:07 pm https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... stry-group

The UK’s post-Brexit border strategy risks further pushing up food prices, according representatives of Britain’s fresh produce industry.

Traders in the food supply chain are warning they will not be able to absorb the extra cost of charges levied for import checks on goods entering the country from the EU and the rest of the world, due to be introduced in the new year.

Estimated additional annual costs of more than £10m stemming from import charges would have to be passed on to consumers, fuelling food inflation just as prices are thought to have peaked.

I can't wait to see how another interest rate rise balances this one.

Are we now getting to the reverse Brexit to lower inflation territory? This could really give the Lib Dems a drum to beat at the next election if they frame it correctly.

The imposition of the belated Brexit checks, tariffs etc extends beyond just foodstuffs. These are due to be implemented from late this year and they will have a real inflationary factor on UK economy. More worryingly many EU suppliers might just not bother going through hassle and expense of getting through UK customs and queues at ports etc and just stop delivering to the UK. We could see significant shortages in a range of goods from the EU plus those that do bother will be hit with tariffs and much more expensive customs and transport costs. It is no wonder the UK Gov have delayed their implementation for years and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they are postponed again to a date after the next General Election. Brexit is just a shit that will never be flushed away and will continue to stink the UK toilet forever.

Ah, don't forget about genius measures like the new UK Chemicals Register, that anyone who produces, distributes, or sells chemicals now has to work with, as well as the existing EU register, so pointless duplication without adding any value, & massive new cost to UK industry.

There's also the brilliant wheeze from JRM & his chums to create a new quality mark, to rival the CE mark, which again is zero added value, but puts huge costs on anyone who has to deal with the fucking thing, & how many EU companies will just throw their hands up & decide to just not export to the UK, rather than deal with this shit.

What kind of impact will all these EU & RoTW companies deciding just to not deal with the UK, rather than accommodate these new rules have on inflation ?

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:14 pm Bell's mistake there is he's making the assumption that housing operates as a free market. It doesn't, because the supply side has massive barriers to entry and supply is not changed by market conditions.

Exactly. And due to the amount of consolidation and debt in other sectors, something similar is happening in those sectors. If you want to take on the retail giants you basically cannot (given their rarity starting a grocery or butchery would likely be a poor business idea, corner shops are dying too), and if a lot of the retail giants have a huge debt pile (as they do) then they can push the costs of servicing that onto the price and not have to worry about the market so much.

I find it strange there's nothing in the public debate about the possibility of interest rate rises in 2023 UK conditions (not some textbook or historical case), could maybe feed inflation.

Instead you'll get people dogmatically stating all inflation is wages driven. No one I know running a business is saying "the customers have more money to spend, I don't want to take it but they're offering so I use higher prices to decide who I sell to".

_Os_ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 3:50 pm

_Os_ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:38 am 3. My observation is that the increased cost of servicing debt is being pushed onto higher prices. The orthodox/neoliberal/Thatcherite view is that this is impossible, because the market sets the price. If a burger costs £2 to make it can not be sold for any price the business chooses (in other words costs cannot be passed on), instead an interplay of supply (how many burgers are available on the market and their production cost) and demand (how many people desire burgers and how much spending power they have) dictates the price, basically if the burger seller decides to set the price at £10 they sell no burgers if the market is pricing burgers at £3-£5. This doesn't take into account many factors, but most importantly how much of a monopoly the business has and therefore how hard it is to compete against it. If a business has sunk costs into the billions and has a very large slice of a market, then they're more able to dictate a burger does now cost £10, because the market and the business are strongly overlapping entities. Which is basically what Primark have done. And given the amount of debt all businesses are carrying there's also market incentive to push additional debt servicing costs into prices (if it's a competitive market, without much monopolisation, but most participants increase prices to service debt then that is the market price). The assumption when the orthodox/neoliberal/Thatcherite viewed was formed, was that there wouldn't be free money for a decade and a half that shaped the entire economy.

The Resolution Foundation are a New Labour leaning thinktank, you'll see them quoted quite regularly in the media. Like New Labour and Starmer they're very much in agreement with the above orthodox/neoliberal/Thatcherite view of things (prices are set by the market through supply and demand alone). Which leads to comments like this (by Resolution Foundation CEO) which simply put are total bullshit.



Another way of putting this is that wages are rising faster than rents, and pulling rents up with them (same amount of supply + additional demand from higher wages = higher rents). But that's not what's happening, instead it's what I described. Most landlords have higher debt servicing costs, so that cost is pushed into the rental price and that also becomes the market price.

I do wonder how they explain food banks and the rest if everyone is swimming in wage increases and driving rental prices higher.

How many rental homes are owned outright Vs a BTL mortgage? Does anyone have data on that?

Because I do think a lot of it is driven by landlords and especially letting agents understand there's a shortage and that they can riase prices because of that rather than higher debt servicing costs.

Matt Hancock criticises his own planning for the pandemic.


Cock by name.

The ring of protection seems a little bit of bollocks.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:13 pm

I can see why Rishi wants students to do maths till 18, because there's a distinct lack of ability from whoever produced the £168k/migrant !

As far as I know, the UK has failed to send even a single migrant to Rwanda, & anything divided by zero, is infinity !

When/If they eventually send one poor sod there, then it will be £200 million/person*, & then presumably the number will come down.

* Or however much the UK Government has sent to Rwanda by this stage, because while it started at £120M, there are also further time stage payments of (I think) £40M

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 5:32 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:13 pm

I can see why Rishi wants students to do maths till 18, because there's a distinct lack of ability from whoever produced the £168k/migrant !

As far as I know, the UK has failed to send even a single migrant to Rwanda, & anything divided by zero, is infinity !

When/If they eventually send one poor sod there, then it will be £200 million/person*, & then presumably the number will come down.

* Or however much the UK Government has sent to Rwanda by this stage, because while it started at £120M, there are also further time stage payments of (I think) £40M

They'll probably be secretly relieved that they won't ditch the ECHR after all as this'll give them something to blame and take the heat from their own miscalculations

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:49 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 5:32 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:13 pm

I can see why Rishi wants students to do maths till 18, because there's a distinct lack of ability from whoever produced the £168k/migrant !

As far as I know, the UK has failed to send even a single migrant to Rwanda, & anything divided by zero, is infinity !

When/If they eventually send one poor sod there, then it will be £200 million/person*, & then presumably the number will come down.

* Or however much the UK Government has sent to Rwanda by this stage, because while it started at £120M, there are also further time stage payments of (I think) £40M

They'll probably be secretly relieved that they won't ditch the ECHR after all as this'll give them something to blame and take the heat from their own miscalculations

Phew !, only £200m pissed away on a moronic project that a YTS student could have told them was impossible, illegal, ruinously expensive

This Dispatches programme on C4 about Johnson and Lebedev is absolutely shocking

Speaking of Channel 4, Ben Elton on the great train robbery

This was in the fucking Times btw, admitting privatisation is a shite idea

Ben Elton: The Great Railway Disaster review — how our train service went off the rails


Carol Midgley
Monday June 26 2023, 10.00pm BST, The Times
Ben Elton: The Great Railway Disaster
Channel 4
★★★★☆

My first reaction upon watching Ben Elton: The Great Railway Disaster, aside from purple-necked rage at the embarrassing shambles that is our rail service, especially if you live up north, was: “Can you please now do the water companies?”

MARK TAYLOR/CHANNEL 4
This was a cautionary tale of how (quelle surprise!) you can’t always trust private companies to do the right thing with precious national services. Or, to use Elton’s words: “The despicable rip-off of the last 30 years has been nothing but a great train robbery.” How incensing to hear that even before the pandemic, the government was handing over “three times as much cash to railways as it did in the days of British Rail”. Including inflation. Independent analysts said that British Rail, while obviously not perfect, was actually an efficient machine and the private companies were surprised when it was broken up at how little fat there was to cut.
Of course some won’t like Elton as the messenger: a self-proclaimed “liberal leftie luvvie” and the antithesis of “Michael Portillo looking bucolic in his big red trousers”. But Elton predicted we would rue the day in his stand-up act three decades ago, after John Major, the prime minister at the time, announced: “The private sector will run it better and passengers will get a better service.” Ho ho ho. We saw the clip of Elton saying so, which, yes, was an “I told you so”, but to be fair — he did.
Elton deployed his usual arch delivery to lampoon, say, Liz Truss for having blamed low productivity on lazy workers when those very workers can’t get to work on time due to endless cancelled and delayed trains, with “not enough staff” often blamed.
He is high profile right now, even appearing on Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg to brand Rishi Sunak a “narcissistic sociopath” and of speaking in a “word salad”. In this documentary he was incisive, entertaining and correct (full disclosure: I’m an Elton fan), mixing the right amount of comedy with grim, depressing reality. Now take on the turd-filled rivers. Go on.

Further on Trains.

I live on the south coast of England, it works out right now about the same price for me to drive my 20 year old Ford Galaxy to Edinburgh and back as is does for me to take the train.

That train cost doubles when me and my wife travel, but it stays the same if I drive. We are going up in a month or so and our youngest is coming with us, the choice is a shite drive or take the train at three times the price - three time would be ok if it was three times say a hundred quid return, but it's not, it's three times two hundred pounds return, and you have to make sure you are not ravelling at peak times to London and there are connections to be made which are subject to cancellations.


edit, I must add that train is my favourite form of transport, but they've ruined it.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:34 pm Further on Trains.

I live on the south coast of England, it works out right now about the same price for me to drive my 20 year old Ford Galaxy to Edinburgh and back as is does for me to take the train.

That train cost doubles when me and my wife travel, but it stays the same if I drive. We are going up in a month or so and our youngest is coming with us, the choice is a shite drive or take the train at three times the price - three time would be ok if it was three times say a hundred quid return, but it's not, it's three times two hundred pounds return, and you have to make sure you are not ravelling at peak times to London and there are connections to be made which are subject to cancellations.


edit, I must add that train is my favourite form of transport, but they've ruined it.

River cruise instead?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:34 pm Further on Trains.

I live on the south coast of England, it works out right now about the same price for me to drive my 20 year old Ford Galaxy to Edinburgh and back as is does for me to take the train.

That train cost doubles when me and my wife travel, but it stays the same if I drive. We are going up in a month or so and our youngest is coming with us, the choice is a shite drive or take the train at three times the price - three time would be ok if it was three times say a hundred quid return, but it's not, it's three times two hundred pounds return, and you have to make sure you are not ravelling at peak times to London and there are connections to be made which are subject to cancellations.


edit, I must add that train is my favourite form of transport, but they've ruined it.

If you and your wife take the train places together semi often you can get a two together Railcard which I think gives discounts of 1/3.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:20 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:34 pm Further on Trains.

I live on the south coast of England, it works out right now about the same price for me to drive my 20 year old Ford Galaxy to Edinburgh and back as is does for me to take the train.

That train cost doubles when me and my wife travel, but it stays the same if I drive. We are going up in a month or so and our youngest is coming with us, the choice is a shite drive or take the train at three times the price - three time would be ok if it was three times say a hundred quid return, but it's not, it's three times two hundred pounds return, and you have to make sure you are not ravelling at peak times to London and there are connections to be made which are subject to cancellations.


edit, I must add that train is my favourite form of transport, but they've ruined it.

If you and your wife take the train places together semi often you can get a two together Railcard which I think gives discounts of 1/3.

Good tip, cheers.

Even on the one journey it saves more than the price of the railcard, from what I can see.

The sprog and I went a long way on the LA Metro for very little with the Tap card.

And, as if by magic, Thames Water is looking like it's about to fall over.


Dump shit in the water.
Ignore leaks.
View fines as an operating cost as opposed to an incentive to improve.
Dividends!
Socialise the risk, because the public purse will pick up the pieces if it all goes wrong, so why worry?

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:04 am And, as if by magic, Thames Water is looking like it's about to fall over.


Dump shit in the water.
Ignore leaks.
View fines as an operating cost as opposed to an incentive to improve.
Dividends!
Socialise the risk, because the public purse will pick up the pieces if it all goes wrong, so why worry?

Absolute fucking scum. They've spent years utilising profit for shareholder dividends and bonuses rather than investment and taken on debt in order to make those payments even more eye-wateringly large.

Uk water industry debt pre-privatisation: fuck all
post-privatisation: about £54 billion.

Debt's fine if you take it on to actually invest in something tangible and worthwhile, but they haven't been doing that.

On top of recent price rises that are apparently necessary to help them fund all the work they should have already done with consumers' payments, water companies are already lobbying the regulator and government for further raises from 2025.

Fuck 'em. Should be renationalised or at the very least turned into non-profits.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:37 am

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:04 am And, as if by magic, Thames Water is looking like it's about to fall over.


Dump shit in the water.
Ignore leaks.
View fines as an operating cost as opposed to an incentive to improve.
Dividends!
Socialise the risk, because the public purse will pick up the pieces if it all goes wrong, so why worry?

Absolute fucking scum. They've spent years utilising profit for shareholder dividends and bonuses rather than investment and taken on debt in order to make those payments even more eye-wateringly large.

Uk water industry debt pre-privatisation: fuck all
post-privatisation: about £54 billion.

Debt's fine if you take it on to actually invest in something tangible and worthwhile, but they haven't been doing that.

On top of recent price rises that are apparently necessary to help them fund all the work they should have already done with consumers' payments, water companies are already lobbying the regulator and government for further raises from 2025.

Fuck 'em. Should be renationalised or at the very least turned into non-profits.

As the sensibles will tell you there's no money to renationalise them (and even less political will) and no business will decide to run a non profit that is saddling with debt and crumbling infrastructure.

This is just the mess that is privatisation. You have the Tories and New Labour to thank. And it's only going to get worse and more expensive.

Is there an industry where privatisation has been a major success story?

Intersting article in FT here