NPR

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:47 pm I'm no fan of those attacked, but all the people in the twit-verse blaming Sweeney, the RFU, etc. ... is that fair, or have these clubs mostly fucked it themselves? Where's the logic in paying one player 500k when the salary cap is 5 mil? It's not basketball, ffs. It also sounded like perennial basement dwellers typically spent up to the cap, so paying average players the same as world class studs at perennial contenders? But I guess the threat of going down contributes to the arms race?

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:47 pm I'm no fan of those attacked, but all the people in the twit-verse blaming Sweeney, the RFU, etc. ... is that fair, or have these clubs mostly fucked it themselves? Where's the logic in paying one player 500k when the salary cap is 5 mil? It's not basketball, ffs. It also sounded like perennial basement dwellers typically spent up to the cap, so paying average players the same as world class studs at perennial contenders? But I guess the threat of going down contributes to the arms race?

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:47 pm I'm no fan of those attacked, but all the people in the twit-verse blaming Sweeney, the RFU, etc. ... is that fair, or have these clubs mostly fucked it themselves? Where's the logic in paying one player 500k when the salary cap is 5 mil? It's not basketball, ffs. It also sounded like perennial basement dwellers typically spent up to the cap, so paying average players the same as world class studs at perennial contenders? But I guess the threat of going down contributes to the arms race?

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:07 pm As our youth club is covered by London Irish, and we currently have a boy who's represented (ing?) Eng u20s who's just signed an academy contract with them, it's rather close to the bone even not as a supporter.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:58 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:07 pm As our youth club is covered by London Irish, and we currently have a boy who's represented (ing?) Eng u20s who's just signed an academy contract with them, it's rather close to the bone even not as a supporter.

Rory Taylor?

Eng U18 so far, not U20 yet. He's a real prospect, so should get picked up somewhere. Some of the rest of that intake may really struggle though

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:11 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:58 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:07 pm As our youth club is covered by London Irish, and we currently have a boy who's represented (ing?) Eng u20s who's just signed an academy contract with them, it's rather close to the bone even not as a supporter.

Rory Taylor?

Eng U18 so far, not U20 yet. He's a real prospect, so should get picked up somewhere. Some of the rest of that intake may really struggle though

Yeah, got the age wrong. Signed a contract 2 weeks ago I believe, probably just before the shit hit the fan. We've got a few others in their pipelines, they have a satellite training group in southampton, which does a lot of good for us. RFU have said they'll take it over and keep it running if needed, but who knows.

Oxbow wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:43 pm Really shit news, feel for the club and fans.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 am It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 am It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:33 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 am It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

To be honest, it's a miracle it's lasted as long as it has. The RFU have shown little to no leadership at all since professionalism started in 1995/6 to shape and manage the top end of English domestic rugby. In fact, what little input they have made her often been a hindrance to the appeal and commercial viability of professional rugby. In some ways that is probably just as well because had the RFU taken a firm grip on things then there would likely only have been four English professional teams feeding into the national team much like the Welsh model.

I can't see how the Premiership can survive with CVC taking 27% out every year. In fact, I've got no idea what CVC are doing with that shareholding.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:40 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 am It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

It's a really odd feeling. Have been resigned to it for a while and have other stuff going on at the moment, but it still hit me hard last night. The club has been part of my life for so long. Started going to games with my old man back in 90-91 at Sunbury and never looked back. Was always one of those rugby fans who actually cared about how my club were doing far more than England. The start of next season will be really strange.

The challenging thing for the PRL is that they are losing fans and engagement as part of this. Very few Wasps, Worcester and LI fans are going to just going to pitch up at Gloucester, Leicester or Quins next season. They're just going to drift away from the elite club game. Hopefully there's meaningful change coming down the line for the much vaunted reset in 24-25. I'd also like to think the we're the last. If another club hits a wall, especially in a geographically important area for the league, you'd hope there would be some kind of bail out of sorts to stop another set of fans, players and staff going through this.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:40 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 am It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

It's a really odd feeling. Have been resigned to it for a while and have other stuff going on at the moment, but it still hit me hard last night. The club has been part of my life for so long. Started going to games with my old man back in 90-91 at Sunbury and never looked back. Was always one of those rugby fans who actually cared about how my club were doing far more than England. The start of next season will be really strange.

The challenging thing for the PRL is that they are losing fans and engagement as part of this. Very few Wasps, Worcester and LI fans are going to just going to pitch up at Gloucester, Leicester or Quins next season. They're just going to drift away from the elite club game. Hopefully there's meaningful change coming down the line for the much vaunted reset in 24-25. I'd also like to think the we're the last. If another club hits a wall, especially in a geographically important area for the league, you'd hope there would be some kind of bail out of sorts to stop another set of fans, players and staff going through this.

When London Irish confirmed their move from the unloved Madejski Stadium in Reading to closer to their spiritual south-west London home in Brentford in 2018, it was heralded as a new dawn for the club.

“In moving we’re confident we’ll attract a larger supporter base to join us,” then president Mick Crossan said. “I would like to thank the London Irish Board of Directors, current and past, for their hard work in steering the realisation of the London Irish vision and securing the financial stability of the club.”

Alas, it secured neither the larger supporter base nor the financial stability that Crossan envisioned. The terms of playing at the Gtech Brentford Community Stadium were far more generous than at the Madejski, which is why they paid Reading FC to enact their break clause.

It was a better location, the most accessible of any Premiership club, with great facilities, but as tenants Irish were always going to remain vulnerable to any financial crosswinds.

Which is exactly what happened when the Covid-19 pandemic hit, forcing the club to play matches behind closed doors at their shiny new stadium while paying prohibitive rent. Remarkably, Irish were operating one of the Premiership’s largest wage bills at the time accounting for marquee players and credits.

Adam Coleman, a decent but by no means remarkable Australian second row, joined the club on a reported £900,000, making him one of the entire league’s highest paid players.

It was a largesse that even Crossan, whose fortune has been estimated at around £50 million after founding Powerday, the waste and recycling management company, was struggling to afford. Last summer as it became increasingly clear that simultaneous crises were unfolding at Worcester Warriors and Wasps, whispers also started growing around Irish’s future.

This was confirmed when Crossan gave an interview to the Mail on Sunday in which he confirmed he was not just looking to sell the club but was prepared to give it away for free. “If anyone’s looking to buy a rugby club with its own training ground and P shares then they don’t even have to buy it,” Crossan said. “For me, at my age, it’s most probably the right time for me to say that I’ve done what I set out to do. I think I’ve done my bit. The club is on a good footing, with a great academy.”

Other owners within the Premiership had valued their ‘P’ shares, which entitles a club to the central income from the Rugby Football Union and broadcasting funding, at around £20 million.

Their 63-acre training complex in Hazelwood, just around the corner from their charming old Sunbury training ground, is as high class as any in the Premiership and frequently hosted NFL teams visiting for the London games.

Yet what should have been the deal of the century did not attract a stampede of prospective buyers. The club were loaded with £30 million of debt without the fixed asset of a stadium to compensate.

This is where the American consortium emerged as potential white knights. Details were – and still remain – incredibly sketchy. Howard Thomas, a former chief executive of Premiership Rugby, appears to have made the initial approach; listed as the managing director of Redstrike which claims to have expertise in rugby’s development markets.

Redstrike have links to 777 Partners, an American private equity group recently linked with a takeover of Everton FC.

Yet Thomas appeared to be acting for another American consortium which Telegraph Sport revealed was headed by Alfred ‘Chip’ Sloan, a former sports agent and lawyer. Sloan had previously inquired about buying into Saracens but was quickly rebuffed by the club. Simon Massie-Taylor, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby, even hailed the American interest as a “positive news story”.

Discussions started around the turn of the year but at nearly every turn the consortium failed to make good on its pledges with the RFU Club Financial Viability Group, which has to approve any takeover, waiting in vain for the most basic of documentation.

At the same time, it became known that Crossan was only willing to fund Irish through March. The club were four days late paying the players their April payroll, although they sought to explain this delay with the ‘cheque’s in the post’ excuse of the Bank Holiday.

The squad, who were prepared to hand in breach-of-contract letters, played their final match of the season against Exeter Chiefs and finished fifth in the league, their highest position in 14 years. It is a testament to the coaching ability of Declan Kidney and the resilience of the squad that they were able to perform so consistently with so much uncertainty in the background.

With a takeover adding to distractions off the pitch, the players sealed an excellent campaign finishing fifth in the league CREDIT: Getty Images/Grant Winter
A bigger battle remained. Tired of the incessant delays and fearful of the saga dragging into the summer, the RFU set a deadline of May 30 for the takeover to be completed. This deadline was moved 24 hours and then, after Crossan agreed to pay 50 per cent of the May payroll, another week – to Tuesday June 6. An internal email sent to the players stated that the remainder would be paid “immediately (once) the funds drop in from the Americans, which is expected imminently”.

Yet on Tuesday, Crossan and the Americans, however serious their actual intentions, ran out of road for their can-kicking exercise.

Irish’s bright new dawn has now turned to darkness.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:03 am Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:03 am Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

Adam Coleman, a decent but by no means remarkable Australian second row, joined the club on a reported £900,000, making him one of the entire league’s highest paid players.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:30 am

Adam Coleman, a decent but by no means remarkable Australian second row, joined the club on a reported £900,000, making him one of the entire league’s highest paid players.

Sums up just how ridiculous the salary levels are!!!

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:30 am

Adam Coleman, a decent but by no means remarkable Australian second row, joined the club on a reported £900,000, making him one of the entire league’s highest paid players.

Sums up just how ridiculous the salary levels are!!!

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:03 am Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:24 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:03 am Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

Doesn't look like the ideal start to negotiations

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:05 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:24 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:03 am Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

Doesn't look like the ideal start to negotiations

Wonder if the RFU would be willing to prop them up for two seasons and sell it to a terrestrial TV channel. Boost interest nationwide.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:25 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:05 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:24 pm

Doesn't look like the ideal start to negotiations

Wonder if the RFU would be willing to prop them up for two seasons and sell it to a terrestrial TV channel. Boost interest nationwide.

Don’t think they’ve got the cash to. Besides, what terrestrial channel is showing three games a weekend?

Exploratory discussions are understood to have taken place between senior officials at the Rugby Football Union and their Irish counterparts in relation to London Irish, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The informal talks are thought to have been prompted by the IRFU’s publicly stated desire to create more playing opportunities for the bottleneck of talent within the Irish academy.

...

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm I know a few people who hated London Irish for the shit about the old London Scottish badge, but even they wouldn't have wished this on them.

Not sure how English rugby goes forward from here.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:16 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:25 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:05 pm

Wonder if the RFU would be willing to prop them up for two seasons and sell it to a terrestrial TV channel. Boost interest nationwide.

Don’t think they’ve got the cash to. Besides, what terrestrial channel is showing three games a weekend?

I imagine the Clubs would throw a complete shit fit at the suggestion of live games on FTA; they'd be terrified it would hit their gate receipts.

robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:57 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm I know a few people who hated London Irish for the shit about the old London Scottish badge, but even they wouldn't have wished this on them.

Not sure how English rugby goes forward from here.

I've seen some chat about a British and Irish league as the solution. Apart from a 20-team league being a non-starter, I don't see what benefit there would be for the IRFU or SRU. Especially when the URC seems to be going quite well for everyone apart from the Welsh. It's competitive and TV audiences and crowds are going in the right direction.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:29 pm Please forgive me, but;

Exploratory discussions are understood to have taken place between senior officials at the Rugby Football Union and their Irish counterparts in relation to London Irish, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The informal talks are thought to have been prompted by the IRFU’s publicly stated desire to create more playing opportunities for the bottleneck of talent within the Irish academy.

...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... don-irish/

I don't think anyone had Welsh TV money bailing out the Premiership in the pool

I do hope that Irish gets saved; they're a proper team with a great supporters, & they don't deserve to go down the tubes because of shite luck & Covid

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:33 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:29 pm Please forgive me, but;

Exploratory discussions are understood to have taken place between senior officials at the Rugby Football Union and their Irish counterparts in relation to London Irish, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The informal talks are thought to have been prompted by the IRFU’s publicly stated desire to create more playing opportunities for the bottleneck of talent within the Irish academy.

...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... don-irish/

I don't think anyone had Welsh TV money bailing out the Premiership in the pool

I do hope that Irish gets saved; they're a proper team with a great supporters, & they don't deserve to go down the tubes because of shite luck & Covid

The talk on that is of the new Ldn Irish being a "Phoenix" club, does that mean not liable for the £30M debt in real English?

You'd be a more than a bit pissed off as a creditor if they walk away from the debt and others would surely think twice about extending credit to premiership rugby clubs as a result.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:54 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:33 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:29 pm Please forgive me, but;



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... don-irish/

I don't think anyone had Welsh TV money bailing out the Premiership in the pool

I do hope that Irish gets saved; they're a proper team with a great supporters, & they don't deserve to go down the tubes because of shite luck & Covid

The talk on that is of the new Ldn Irish being a "Phoenix" club, does that mean not liable for the £30M debt in real English?

You'd be a more than a bit pissed off as a creditor if they walk away from the debt and others would surely think twice about extending credit to premiership rugby clubs as a result.

The administration will be interesting, and I'm not too sure how it all works. At present we're probably north of £30m as a debt figure given that was based on previous accounts. Vast majority will either be to Crossan or the government. Very roughly speaking you've probably got:

c.£20m in director loans (mostly Crossan, but also a few million to Cusack)
£11m in DCSM covid loan
Whatever is owed to HMRC. We've clearly accrued liabilities there recently given the winding up petition
External Finance he took in Dec 22 (charge secured against P share), probably to cover Q1 operating costs whilst takeover went through in theory.
Whatever misc liabilities that have been accrued this season (player salaries, season tickets sold for next season etc)

There are two assets worth mentioning
Hazelwood (training facility)
Prem P Share

Challenge for any Phoenix club down the line is where you train and play. Guessing somewhere like a Wimbledon ground share for the latter, but Hazelwood will likely be long gone.

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm I know a few people who hated London Irish for the shit about the old London Scottish badge, but even they wouldn't have wished this on them.

Not sure how English rugby goes forward from here.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:02 am
I read an article on PR that said Leicester and Exeter are also on shaky ground, two directors had to plough an extra £13M into Tigers and the club gets gates of around 20K, plusTony Rowe had to buy into the hotel that Exeter own and they are often held up as an example of how to run a club from a financial perspective.