NPR

He really does have the perfect name for the role though.

Margin__Walker wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:40 am

JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 am It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

It's a really odd feeling. Have been resigned to it for a while and have other stuff going on at the moment, but it still hit me hard last night. The club has been part of my life for so long. Started going to games with my old man back in 90-91 at Sunbury and never looked back. Was always one of those rugby fans who actually cared about how my club were doing far more than England. The start of next season will be really strange.

The challenging thing for the PRL is that they are losing fans and engagement as part of this. Very few Wasps, Worcester and LI fans are going to just going to pitch up at Gloucester, Leicester or Quins next season. They're just going to drift away from the elite club game. Hopefully there's meaningful change coming down the line for the much vaunted reset in 24-25. I'd also like to think the we're the last. If another club hits a wall, especially in a geographically important area for the league, you'd hope there would be some kind of bail out of sorts to stop another set of fans, players and staff going through this.

Firstly, sorry that this has happened for you and all LI supporters.

Re the bolded bit, this has been really been prominent on social media that the supporters of these clubs are either going to watch local clubs now (which is great in it's own way) or just drifting away from attending rugby in person completely, very few saying they are going to watch other prem clubs.

Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:10 am

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:02 am
I read an article on PR that said Leicester and Exeter are also on shaky ground, two directors had to plough an extra £13M into Tigers and the club gets gates of around 20K, plusTony Rowe had to buy into the hotel that Exeter own and they are often held up as an example of how to run a club from a financial perspective.

Every club in the league is on shakey ground to some extent. Leicester should be okay in the short term with the injection of investor cash and they are such a big name, with a big fan base that I think they'd always cling on. Looking at it with no inside knowledge, perhaps Newcastle, Sale and Exeter look fairly vulnerable. Exeter are clearly cutting costs this season and Newcastle have already done so. Sale have a committed owner, but he's not super rich and they struggle for revenue. If investors walk away though, every team would be in trouble, with perhaps Saints the most secure in terms of sustainability.

The imminent restoration of the salary cap to the £7m mark that contributed to so many clubs' debts is absolutely mental. Especially as they still haven't restored relegation. Only the financial blow of relegation justified clubs spending so far out of their comfort zone.

If anything this season should have been a wake up call for the remaining clubs to get their shit together.

The on field product is going to suck if most clubs do reform their spending but a couple do spend to the higher cap and win pretty much all their games.

Slick wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:58 am

Margin__Walker wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:40 am

JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 am It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

It's a really odd feeling. Have been resigned to it for a while and have other stuff going on at the moment, but it still hit me hard last night. The club has been part of my life for so long. Started going to games with my old man back in 90-91 at Sunbury and never looked back. Was always one of those rugby fans who actually cared about how my club were doing far more than England. The start of next season will be really strange.

The challenging thing for the PRL is that they are losing fans and engagement as part of this. Very few Wasps, Worcester and LI fans are going to just going to pitch up at Gloucester, Leicester or Quins next season. They're just going to drift away from the elite club game. Hopefully there's meaningful change coming down the line for the much vaunted reset in 24-25. I'd also like to think the we're the last. If another club hits a wall, especially in a geographically important area for the league, you'd hope there would be some kind of bail out of sorts to stop another set of fans, players and staff going through this.

Firstly, sorry that this has happened for you and all LI supporters.

Re the bolded bit, this has been really been prominent on social media that the supporters of these clubs are either going to watch local clubs now (which is great in it's own way) or just drifting away from attending rugby in person completely, very few saying they are going to watch other prem clubs.

Yeah, nothing inherently wrong with switching to another prem team, but it's not something the majority would tend to do in this situation. Anyone that's really invested their time and interest in a team over the years is just not likely get what they are looking for pitching up somewhere else at one of their former rivals. You'll always struggle to feel really attached.

If my lads develop an interest in rugby, I'll probably take them to Sale to watch a few games, but ultimately it'll never be the same.

As you say, probably a good thing for a few Champ/ND1&2 clubs that may get a few extra in the door as a result of all this. I'd probably would be more engaged with that level if there was one on my door step.

Ultimately though, I'll hold tight and hope there's some kind of place for version LI in the pro game whenever there's some sort of reset down the line.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:20 am

fishfoodie wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:16 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:25 pm

Don’t think they’ve got the cash to. Besides, what terrestrial channel is showing three games a weekend?

I imagine the Clubs would throw a complete shit fit at the suggestion of live games on FTA; they'd be terrified it would hit their gate receipts.

No there's a few already on ITV and I think they're very supportive.

FTA is critical to any sport that isn't football to some degree, the question is how you balance it with maximising TV revenue, which means selling out. Back in the day, and I mean early 2000s, I know Nigel Wray had a theory that being on TV reduced Sarries' gates and so there'd only be the one contractual game a year televised from Vicarage Road, but the evidence that he was correct on this was always very very shaky.

On an entirely different topic, I was involved in a discussion last night around different sports, the state of rugby etc. The consensus from a wide group of general sports fans who'd happily watch whatever is that English rugby offers the absolute worst value day out in sport. Hard to argue with

I totally agree with you on the value to the sport of FTA coverage, I think it was critical in the early days of Professional Rugby in Ireland that the European games were on FTA.

It's just reflexively I think the clubs think it will hit attendances, but again, I agree that this isn't what happens.

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:59 am

Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:10 am

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:02 am
I read an article on PR that said Leicester and Exeter are also on shaky ground, two directors had to plough an extra £13M into Tigers and the club gets gates of around 20K, plusTony Rowe had to buy into the hotel that Exeter own and they are often held up as an example of how to run a club from a financial perspective.

Every club in the league is on shakey ground to some extent. Leicester should be okay in the short term with the injection of investor cash and they are such a big name, with a big fan base that I think they'd always cling on. Looking at it with no inside knowledge, perhaps Newcastle, Sale and Exeter look fairly vulnerable. Exeter are clearly cutting costs this season and Newcastle have already done so. Sale have a committed owner, but he's not super rich and they struggle for revenue. If investors walk away though, every team would be in trouble, with perhaps Saints the most secure in terms of sustainability.

The imminent restoration of the salary cap to the £7m mark that contributed to so many clubs' debts is absolutely mental. Especially as they still haven't restored relegation. Only the financial blow of relegation justified clubs spending so far out of their comfort zone.

If anything this season should have been a wake up call for the remaining clubs to get their shit together.

The on field product is going to suck if most clubs do reform their spending but a couple do spend to the higher cap and win pretty much all their games.

It's all incredibly challenging and I'm not sure how several teams spending a huge amount more than others would generate interest in the league. Ultimately the first thing to do would be to ensure the EQP requirements keep rising (realise the irony here given LI were never market leading here). If you're going to make it a ten team league, let's make it a predominantly home grown one. Fine with a few stars here and there, but let's the balance right.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:48 am He really does have the perfect name for the role though.

Increasingly convinced he's either DD or Mitty from the old bored

Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:20 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:59 am

Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:10 am

Every club in the league is on shakey ground to some extent. Leicester should be okay in the short term with the injection of investor cash and they are such a big name, with a big fan base that I think they'd always cling on. Looking at it with no inside knowledge, perhaps Newcastle, Sale and Exeter look fairly vulnerable. Exeter are clearly cutting costs this season and Newcastle have already done so. Sale have a committed owner, but he's not super rich and they struggle for revenue. If investors walk away though, every team would be in trouble, with perhaps Saints the most secure in terms of sustainability.

The imminent restoration of the salary cap to the £7m mark that contributed to so many clubs' debts is absolutely mental. Especially as they still haven't restored relegation. Only the financial blow of relegation justified clubs spending so far out of their comfort zone.

If anything this season should have been a wake up call for the remaining clubs to get their shit together.

The on field product is going to suck if most clubs do reform their spending but a couple do spend to the higher cap and win pretty much all their games.

It's all incredibly challenging and I'm not sure how several teams spending a huge amount more than others would generate interest in the league. Ultimately the first thing to do would be to ensure the EQP requirements keep rising (realise the irony here given LI were never market leading here). If you're going to make it a ten team league, let's make it a predominantly home grown one. Fine with a few stars here and there, but let's the balance right.

Absolutely. While we're at it, we also need to try and find some mechanism to stop clubs all using whatever foreign player allowance they have to all stack the same positions. Part of England's depth issues in certain positions over the last several years (12 and 8 spring to mind in particular) is the number of non-EQPs filling them. You'd expect some fall off if quotas were upped, but there's theoretically nothing stopping all clubs picking non-EQP fly halves.

Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:20 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:59 am

Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:10 am

Every club in the league is on shakey ground to some extent. Leicester should be okay in the short term with the injection of investor cash and they are such a big name, with a big fan base that I think they'd always cling on. Looking at it with no inside knowledge, perhaps Newcastle, Sale and Exeter look fairly vulnerable. Exeter are clearly cutting costs this season and Newcastle have already done so. Sale have a committed owner, but he's not super rich and they struggle for revenue. If investors walk away though, every team would be in trouble, with perhaps Saints the most secure in terms of sustainability.

The imminent restoration of the salary cap to the £7m mark that contributed to so many clubs' debts is absolutely mental. Especially as they still haven't restored relegation. Only the financial blow of relegation justified clubs spending so far out of their comfort zone.

If anything this season should have been a wake up call for the remaining clubs to get their shit together.

The on field product is going to suck if most clubs do reform their spending but a couple do spend to the higher cap and win pretty much all their games.

It's all incredibly challenging and I'm not sure how several teams spending a huge amount more than others would generate interest in the league. Ultimately the first thing to do would be to ensure the EQP requirements keep rising (realise the irony here given LI were never market leading here). If you're going to make it a ten team league, let's make it a predominantly home grown one. Fine with a few stars here and there, but let's the balance right.

I agree with that, I was thinking about this last night and ultimately there's a few things at play here:

1) We must bring wages down to a sustainable level
2) The "product" must remain attractive to spectators and viewers
3) We cannot irrevocably damage the pathway to the international team
4) The health and stability of the league as a spectator sport that provides reliable income to pro players is secondary to European success

If wages come down, we will lose players. That is a fact. But it is also a fact that we pay some ridiculous wages and losing those would be good. Quins are likely to lose Marcus Smith to Racing92 for 2024 and as much as I will hate to see him go, I would much rather take that than have the club go bust. Will the overall quality of the league suffer? Yes, probably. If we made it so non-EQPs were only present in exceptional cases, would that help in this scenario? I think so. With less money to go around, it's not going to be the big names that get signed from overseas, it's going to be the Saffer/NZ/etc journeymen who pad out squads. And there's already plenty of those milling around (including in the Championship). So if we prevent that, then maybe we lose a Marcus Smith overseas for a few years but the next 2 are discovered because they're actually getting gametime and aren't stuck behind Joost van der Afrikaaner-Burger and Johnno Bondi-Wagga.

This is a much, much longer conversation, but the Kiwis have largely the right setup with their semi-pro comp and then Super Rugby. We could do something similar with the Championship and the Premiership, but there's too many sides who view themselves as temporarily embarrassed kings of Europe for that to happen. What really works with the Kiwi setup is that it really does engage the fans at the lower level. No-one gives a shit about club rugby in general in this country, and each league is essentially isolated from each other. When I lived in Richmond I enjoyed going to see them or London Scottish but only as a novelty; I've been to see lower league teams with lots of Quins players playing before and while that did pique my interest it did feel very strange given they were on loan but forming a good chunk of the starting XV, and the lack of cohesion was obvious.

In my ideal world, the Championship sides would be the equivalent of the semi-pro NZ sides. Good English players all playing and earning enough money to make a living without it being ruinous, where some players who don't kick on will drop out to be replaced by the next rank but where young talent rubs shoulders with old pros, and where the interest for the casual fan is seeing the evolution of the next set of English players. The Premiership sides would be the Super Rugby equivalent with a similar kind of relationship to the Champ sides. So a good young player would make waves in the Championship and then pick up a Premiership contract. If we keep it largely regional rather than an open market, then the interest carries over from the Champ side to the Premiership side, and vice versa.

Obviously there's a lot that can't work the same here. Academies would need to be rethought. The way the clubs are distributed across the country doesn't make life easy. PRL and co would be voting for a huge drop in revenue. The domestic season would need to be completely rethought - either so that the Champ games get near-equal billing but are played on less popular evenings, or they're in a different block entirely. I think that's a bonus, but I realise a lot of this is real pie in the sky stuff, so, y'know. I also think that lower standard of rugby is still a draw for spectators and viewers IF the style is still attractive (as Quins showed, you don't need to be NZ or Toulouse to make people really enjoy the game) and if there's a reason to watch if you're just a fan of English rugby or even England rugby, i.e. it's part of a clear pathway. Much like how watching the U20s is more fun for most of us than watching Ealing vs Ampthill.

edit: Also, jesus, I don't know if it's just that years of following a side even more bonkers than Quins has given you a very thick skin but you're dealing with this all very well. As one of the most level headed and fair posters on English rugby it's doubly horrible that you have to suffer like this. If you were a cunt I'd feel bad for you but this ain't right. Especially after a season where you and I started off discussing how ridiculous it was that Irish were doing so badly and ended with you just missing out on the playoffs.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:24 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:48 am He really does have the perfect name for the role though.

Increasingly convinced he's either DD or Mitty from the old bored

oh my god I have never wanted anything to be more true in my life

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:42 am
Obviously there's a lot that can't work the same here. Academies would need to be rethought. The way the clubs are distributed across the country doesn't make life easy. PRL and co would be voting for a huge drop in revenue. The domestic season would need to be completely rethought - either so that the Champ games get near-equal billing but are played on less popular evenings, or they're in a different block entirely. I think that's a bonus, but I realise a lot of this is real pie in the sky stuff, so, y'know. I also think that lower standard of rugby is still a draw for spectators and viewers IF the style is still attractive (as Quins showed, you don't need to be NZ or Toulouse to make people really enjoy the game) and if there's a reason to watch if you're just a fan of English rugby or even England rugby, i.e. it's part of a clear pathway. Much like how watching the U20s is more fun for most of us than watching Ealing vs Ampthill.

In Scotland, Super 6 is probably a lower standard than the English Championship but has benefited from being available to watch free-to-air so it does get the casual fans tuning in, especially when it hasn't coincided with the regular pro season.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:42 am

edit: Also, jesus, I don't know if it's just that years of following a side even more bonkers than Quins has given you a very thick skin but you're dealing with this all very well. As one of the most level headed and fair posters on English rugby it's doubly horrible that you have to suffer like this. If you were a cunt I'd feel bad for you but this ain't right. Especially after a season where you and I started off discussing how ridiculous it was that Irish were doing so badly and ended with you just missing out on the playoffs.

Cheers, It's life I guess and no one died, but it's such an odd way to go. I always suspected we'd fail at some point as a business, but always thought it would be after another relegation or getting trapped in the second tier. The irony is that the money spent on the likes of Naholo, Coleman, SOB, Mafi, Kepu etc in 2019 didn't even make an impact on the pitch. It was the academy pathway and some excellent under the radar signings like Pearson, White and BJVR.

The squad that's now being broken up is as good as I've ever seen for the club. Likewise we've never had a better set of young players in the pathway. In an alternate reality where Crossan doesn't walk, we'd have done well and good have even swallowed guys like OHC and Arundell leaving as the production line was working.

Ultimately though it's a cautionary tale. Premiership clubs desperately need to get a handle on costs and do something drastic to stop the contagion.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:42 am
If wages come down, we will lose players. That is a fact.

It is, but I really don't think it will that big of an issue. With the JIFF system in place there really aren't going to be that many slots available to English players. And your Islanders and Saffers are likely to prove better value. Pro D2 will pick up a few all right, but not players off the top like Smith.

The top players will also be those players with England hopes, and so long as selection is restricted to those playing within England, then that's a hell of a carrot to stay where you are. Maybe allow for one coach selection or players over 50 caps rule or something, but it is definitely a tool to help keep players at home. You're only going to lose players then that are disenfranchised with the England setup or looking to internationally retire and cash in.

A few will head to Japan as well, but these are more likely to be on the downward slope fo their career as well because lets face it, the money may be good, but it's a retirement community.

Welsh TV money is a real threat, and you just have to see Ulster splashing their share on nabbing Ewers, but again there wont be that many to make a move to the URC and again wont be the cream.

Also, if wages are coming down in England, then that will have a knock on effect elsewhere. Wages may not move to the same degree, but they are likely to fall in France as well after a few seasons (or maybe slow their growth depending on how their TV contracts go).

Look losing a handful of prime and a number of 2nd and 3rd tier players is still a problem, but I really don't see there being a max exodus.

PornDog wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:57 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:42 am
If wages come down, we will lose players. That is a fact.

It is, but I really don't think it will that big of an issue. With the JIFF system in place there really aren't going to be that many slots available to English players. And your Islanders and Saffers are likely to prove better value. Pro D2 will pick up a few all right, but not players off the top like Smith.

The top players will also be those players with England hopes, and so long as selection is restricted to those playing within England, then that's a hell of a carrot to stay where you are. Maybe allow for one coach selection or players over 50 caps rule or something, but it is definitely a tool to help keep players at home. You're only going to lose players then that are disenfranchised with the England setup or looking to internationally retire and cash in.

A few will head to Japan as well, but these are more likely to be on the downward slope fo their career as well because lets face it, the money may be good, but it's a retirement community.

Welsh TV money is a real threat, and you just have to see Ulster splashing their share on nabbing Ewers, but again there wont be that many to make a move to the URC and again wont be the cream.

Also, if wages are coming down in England, then that will have a knock on effect elsewhere. Wages may not move to the same degree, but they are likely to fall in France as well after a few seasons (or maybe slow their growth depending on how their TV contracts go).

Look losing a handful of prime and a number of 2nd and 3rd tier players is still a problem, but I really don't see there being a max exodus.

We've been over the exodus thing ad nauseam in previous weeks and it basically comes down to there not being available spots for many players even if they want to go. I've heard rumours that the French JIFF requirements are set to increase and Japan now have very stringent restrictions on numbers of non-Japanese players while URC teams mostly exist to serve their respective national sides and will only be looking to pick up the odd dual qualified player who's too impatient to wait for or unlikely to get a shot with England.

As an aside I'm really confused as to why Ulster bothered signing Burns, Addison and now Ewers. Not a one of them looks international quality and surely it's a more efficient use of funds to look for similar quality from the academy or AIL if just looking to fill squad places.

To the bolded, I saw someone mention on reddit that the Top14 salary cap is set to come down.

PornDog wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:57 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:42 am
If wages come down, we will lose players. That is a fact.

It is, but I really don't think it will that big of an issue. With the JIFF system in place there really aren't going to be that many slots available to English players. And your Islanders and Saffers are likely to prove better value. Pro D2 will pick up a few all right, but not players off the top like Smith.

The top players will also be those players with England hopes, and so long as selection is restricted to those playing within England, then that's a hell of a carrot to stay where you are. Maybe allow for one coach selection or players over 50 caps rule or something, but it is definitely a tool to help keep players at home. You're only going to lose players then that are disenfranchised with the England setup or looking to internationally retire and cash in.

A few will head to Japan as well, but these are more likely to be on the downward slope fo their career as well because lets face it, the money may be good, but it's a retirement community.

Welsh TV money is a real threat, and you just have to see Ulster splashing their share on nabbing Ewers, but again there wont be that many to make a move to the URC and again wont be the cream.

Also, if wages are coming down in England, then that will have a knock on effect elsewhere. Wages may not move to the same degree, but they are likely to fall in France as well after a few seasons (or maybe slow their growth depending on how their TV contracts go).

Look losing a handful of prime and a number of 2nd and 3rd tier players is still a problem, but I really don't see there being a max exodus.

I largely agree. It's just that losing a couple of prime players hurts more than losing bigger numbers of lesser players, and also hurts the emotional attachment people have to clubs where a big part of the draw is seeing guys come through the development pathway. I'm resigned to losing them regardless, I just want there to be an upside to it.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:38 am

I largely agree. It's just that losing a couple of prime players hurts more than losing bigger numbers of lesser players, and also hurts the emotional attachment people have to clubs where a big part of the draw is seeing guys come through the development pathway. I'm resigned to losing them regardless, I just want there to be an upside to it.

I thought Racing were signing Beauden Barrett? Matthieu Jalibert has also been linked with a move to Paris.

However your point about big-draw players is true, especially the ones that come up through the junior ranks. These players definitely put bums on seats and get fans even more invested in the team (I'm thinking about Finn and Hoggy at Glasgow).

If Smith does go, I wonder how much of a financial difference it would make in giving up an international career for a few seasons until he comes back and the money he'd make in France?

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:48 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:38 am

I largely agree. It's just that losing a couple of prime players hurts more than losing bigger numbers of lesser players, and also hurts the emotional attachment people have to clubs where a big part of the draw is seeing guys come through the development pathway. I'm resigned to losing them regardless, I just want there to be an upside to it.

I thought Racing were signing Beauden Barrett? Matthieu Jalibert has also been linked with a move to Paris.

However your point about big-draw players is true, especially the ones that come up through the junior ranks. These players definitely put bums on seats and get fans even more invested in the team (I'm thinking about Finn and Hoggy at Glasgow).

If Smith does go, I wonder how much of a financial difference it would make in giving up an international career for a few seasons until he comes back and the money he'd make in France?

It's very rare in rugby for the sort of noise we're getting about someone like Smith moving on to turn out to be wrong, but obviously I'll be happy if he stays.

We're assuming he'd have been involved in internationals (a big assumption), and if so it's about £20k a match I believe. It's a decent amount of money, but he'd also likely be earning more in France than Quins are able to pay him. And if he did come back, I'm not sure it would be to Quins; he'd be expecting a lot of cash and it's not like Quins are going to keep a big hole in their budget open for him.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:58 am

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:48 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:38 am

I largely agree. It's just that losing a couple of prime players hurts more than losing bigger numbers of lesser players, and also hurts the emotional attachment people have to clubs where a big part of the draw is seeing guys come through the development pathway. I'm resigned to losing them regardless, I just want there to be an upside to it.

I thought Racing were signing Beauden Barrett? Matthieu Jalibert has also been linked with a move to Paris.

However your point about big-draw players is true, especially the ones that come up through the junior ranks. These players definitely put bums on seats and get fans even more invested in the team (I'm thinking about Finn and Hoggy at Glasgow).

If Smith does go, I wonder how much of a financial difference it would make in giving up an international career for a few seasons until he comes back and the money he'd make in France?

It's very rare in rugby for the sort of noise we're getting about someone like Smith moving on to turn out to be wrong, but obviously I'll be happy if he stays.

We're assuming he'd have been involved in internationals (a big assumption), and if so it's about £20k a match I believe. It's a decent amount of money, but he'd also likely be earning more in France than Quins are able to pay him. And if he did come back, I'm not sure it would be to Quins; he'd be expecting a lot of cash and it's not like Quins are going to keep a big hole in their budget open for him.

The England match fee is a bit less than I thought*, tbh, but there are still around ten or more internationals per year and yeah, I meant him coming back to England rather than specifically back to Quins.


*having said that, there are sponsorship options for a good looking young lad who plays at fly half for England.

No-one gives a shit about club rugby in general in this country, and each league is essentially isolated from each other. When I lived in Richmond I enjoyed going to see them or London Scottish but only as a novelty; I've been to see lower league teams with lots of Quins players playing before and while that did pique my interest

Enjoyed that post JM. I did just wonder about your point here though, do you mean no one gives a shit about "top level" club rugby in the country, or club rugby all the way down the leagues?

I ask because I do think that people (I think like you?) who have only been involved with supporting Prem teams are very much the minority. The vast majority are involved in grass roots clubs and only really watch internationals and this is the main issue, there just will never be the punters turning up to watch Prem rugby to really make it viable.

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:06 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:58 am

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:48 am


I thought Racing were signing Beauden Barrett? Matthieu Jalibert has also been linked with a move to Paris.

However your point about big-draw players is true, especially the ones that come up through the junior ranks. These players definitely put bums on seats and get fans even more invested in the team (I'm thinking about Finn and Hoggy at Glasgow).

If Smith does go, I wonder how much of a financial difference it would make in giving up an international career for a few seasons until he comes back and the money he'd make in France?

It's very rare in rugby for the sort of noise we're getting about someone like Smith moving on to turn out to be wrong, but obviously I'll be happy if he stays.

We're assuming he'd have been involved in internationals (a big assumption), and if so it's about £20k a match I believe. It's a decent amount of money, but he'd also likely be earning more in France than Quins are able to pay him. And if he did come back, I'm not sure it would be to Quins; he'd be expecting a lot of cash and it's not like Quins are going to keep a big hole in their budget open for him.

The England match fee is a bit less than I thought*, tbh, but there are still around ten or more internationals per year and yeah, I meant him coming back to England rather than specifically back to Quins.


*having said that, there are sponsorship options for a good looking young lad who plays at fly half for England.

His face is too annoying for that, unfortunately

The vast majority are involved in grass roots clubs and only really watch internationals and this is the main issue, there just will never be the punters turning up to watch Prem rugby to really make it viable.

The depressing counter point to this is that grass roots clubs are on their arse with very limited exceptions, I'd say the vast majority of rugby fans do something else with their weekends until the internationals. I don't think the quickening death of grassroots rugby is unique to England mind.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:20 pm

The vast majority are involved in grass roots clubs and only really watch internationals and this is the main issue, there just will never be the punters turning up to watch Prem rugby to really make it viable.

The depressing counter point to this is that grass roots clubs are on their arse with very limited exceptions, I'd say the vast majority of rugby fans do something else with their weekends until the internationals. I don't think the quickening death of grassroots rugby is unique to England mind.

True, to a point, certainly senior players have been lost at an alarming rate but junior rugby in most clubs is still huge, and largely what keeps them going. I blame pro rugby for all of this anyway.

Slick wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:23 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:20 pm

The vast majority are involved in grass roots clubs and only really watch internationals and this is the main issue, there just will never be the punters turning up to watch Prem rugby to really make it viable.

The depressing counter point to this is that grass roots clubs are on their arse with very limited exceptions, I'd say the vast majority of rugby fans do something else with their weekends until the internationals. I don't think the quickening death of grassroots rugby is unique to England mind.

True, to a point, certainly senior players have been lost at an alarming rate but junior rugby in most clubs is still huge, and largely what keeps them going. I blame pro rugby for all of this anyway.

Definitely true, but I wonder how many clubs will keep their juniors running if there's no senior rugby, which has to be a real possibility for some clubs with half decent junior sections imminently. Taking Bucks as an example we both know, unless I'm much mistaken only Buckingham and Aylesbury plan to run a regular 3rd XV next season. There's a real chance these grassroots just don't exist in a decade.

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:31 am
As an aside I'm really confused as to why Ulster bothered signing Burns, Addison and now Ewers. Not a one of them looks international quality and surely it's a more efficient use of funds to look for similar quality from the academy or AIL if just looking to fill squad places.

Burns is a donkey extraordinaire. He'd be fine if he was Ulster's second or third-string OH, but a serious team cannot be led by him.

Addison has been absolute quality when he's played, for both Ulster and Ireland. Unfortunately, you're working off of such a small sample size for both because he's constantly fucking injured. In 5 years he's played 26 times for Ulster and 5 times for Ireland. He's been out for more than 18 months since he fractured his leg and assume he will retire at this stage.

Ewers will fill a role. He's a solid club player with plenty of experience who's probably not costing all that much (if he's on more than £200k I'd be amazed) and will be available year round. Unfortunately, Ulster really struggle for depth in the back row, especially when they banish Marcus Rea to the AIL for half the year (there seems to be some genuine problems in the dressing room up there).

For whatever reason Ulster have really struggled to develop forwards - I think Henderson is the last home grown Irish International they've developed. They have some exceptional backs come through over the years, but Ulster farmer stock is staying on the farm by the looks of things. Also, despite their backs, Ulster's maul has been their biggest (only?) weapon this year - they've some major fucking issues to address.

Anyway, apologies, this isn't the Irish Rugby thread.

On the issue de juer though - maybe some Irish qualified English lads could end up making their way over here. I'm sure plenty will be looking into where their grannies are from if they are struggling to find a contract in England.

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:06 pm
*having said that, there are sponsorship options for a good looking young lad who plays at fly half for England.

Have to actually be England fly half to take advantage of them, though.

Ford and Farrell are more likely to do a Sexton than retire any time soon and Borthwick's utilisation of Smith in the 6N didn't exactly indicated confidence in the lad.

My sympathies to the L. Irish fans (and the other two clubs). It's horrible. I remember when my own team Bedford were being put through the ringer by shady owners, thankfully the town rallied round and saved the club (though having to accept a ceiling of Championship level forever more) but if this had happened in 2023 rather than turn of the century then I'm not so sure of the same result

As is being said above, really you'd think that the governing bodies should be using this current crisis to take a long hard look at rugby in this country and to have the cojones to at least discuss and put on the table every aspect of the game - governance, club system, league system, everything to do with finances, player welfare, player development, and so on. But fully expect them to just plough on regardless with the sticking plaster approach.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:50 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:23 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:20 pm

The depressing counter point to this is that grass roots clubs are on their arse with very limited exceptions, I'd say the vast majority of rugby fans do something else with their weekends until the internationals. I don't think the quickening death of grassroots rugby is unique to England mind.

True, to a point, certainly senior players have been lost at an alarming rate but junior rugby in most clubs is still huge, and largely what keeps them going. I blame pro rugby for all of this anyway.

Definitely true, but I wonder how many clubs will keep their juniors running if there's no senior rugby, which has to be a real possibility for some clubs with half decent junior sections imminently. Taking Bucks as an example we both know, unless I'm much mistaken only Buckingham and Aylesbury plan to run a regular 3rd XV next season. There's a real chance these grassroots just don't exist in a decade.

Good for them! Played my first senior men's game for them in the early 1970's when they played in the town. Glad they're still mmanaging 3 sides.
Grassroots rugby is in major decline, certainly in Hertfordshire. Teams that regularly in the past fielded 4/5 sides now only field 2, those that fielded 2/3 barely manage to field 1 . Even clubs like Stortford, O Albanians and Hertford struggle with putting out lower sides in the county merit tables.

Slick wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:15 pm

No-one gives a shit about club rugby in general in this country, and each league is essentially isolated from each other. When I lived in Richmond I enjoyed going to see them or London Scottish but only as a novelty; I've been to see lower league teams with lots of Quins players playing before and while that did pique my interest

Enjoyed that post JM. I did just wonder about your point here though, do you mean no one gives a shit about "top level" club rugby in the country, or club rugby all the way down the leagues?

I ask because I do think that people (I think like you?) who have only been involved with supporting Prem teams are very much the minority. The vast majority are involved in grass roots clubs and only really watch internationals and this is the main issue, there just will never be the punters turning up to watch Prem rugby to really make it viable.

It's largely about pro rugby - so not necessarily just the Premiership, but down to whichever league no longer has teams paying players more than boot money - but I do also think the amateur community is not large and fairly insular. It's certainly true that people form communities and attachments to local amateur clubs and that's great, but it doesn't necessarily translate to an interest in rugby up and down the leagues, doesn't result in more than a handful of regular spectators, and ultimately isn't a source of either funds or players for the pro game (which is what's at risk at the moment). It is what it should be, which is an excellent participation sport for all comers. But I don't pretend to have an indepth knowledge of amateur club rugby or anything.

WRT Richmond, London Scottish, etc - I find the Championship and Div1/2 to be very weird. You have sides who think they're Premiership quality. Sides under no illusions that if they did get promoted to the league above they'd get destroyed (possibly literally). Sides that for most of the season are reliant on huge numbers of loanees from above. Sides that are run by people who think that money is all you need for success. Sides that are really quite cool with loads of history and who are at about the right level but don't know how to leverage that into a bigger supporter base / better product without promotion. And a lot of the frontline fans for these clubs have outright antipathy towards the Premiership, for a variety of reasons, and lots more don't give a toss about England either (this is also true of a subset of Premiership fans). If things were joined up better then there might be wider interest in the top end of the sport and a sense of personal attachment to the Prem club and England from those supporting the sides in the tier below. But maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:20 pm

The vast majority are involved in grass roots clubs and only really watch internationals and this is the main issue, there just will never be the punters turning up to watch Prem rugby to really make it viable.

The depressing counter point to this is that grass roots clubs are on their arse with very limited exceptions, I'd say the vast majority of rugby fans do something else with their weekends until the internationals. I don't think the quickening death of grassroots rugby is unique to England mind.

That slightly weird article about the Top14 / ProD2 etc did make a very good point about how the scheduling screws us. In this country, you make a choice between playing for your local club and watching your local pro team / national side.

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:02 am

Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:54 am

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:33 am


The talk on that is of the new Ldn Irish being a "Phoenix" club, does that mean not liable for the £30M debt in real English?

You'd be a more than a bit pissed off as a creditor if they walk away from the debt and others would surely think twice about extending credit to premiership rugby clubs as a result.

The administration will be interesting, and I'm not too sure how it all works. At present we're probably north of £30m as a debt figure given that was based on previous accounts. Vast majority will either be to Crossan or the government. Very roughly speaking you've probably got:

c.£20m in director loans (mostly Crossan, but also a few million to Cusack)
£11m in DCSM covid loan
Whatever is owed to HMRC. We've clearly accrued liabilities there recently given the winding up petition
External Finance he took in Dec 22 (charge secured against P share), probably to cover Q1 operating costs whilst takeover went through in theory.
Whatever misc liabilities that have been accrued this season (player salaries, season tickets sold for next season etc)

There are two assets worth mentioning
Hazelwood (training facility)
Prem P Share

Challenge for any Phoenix club down the line is where you train and play. Guessing somewhere like a Wimbledon ground share for the latter, but Hazelwood will likely be long gone.

Something I should have added to my post, it's tragic what has happened and I hope there is a way to relaunch the club.

------

I read an article on PR that said Leicester and Exeter are also on shaky ground, two directors had to plough an extra £13M into Tigers and the club gets gates of around 20K, plusTony Rowe had to buy into the hotel that Exeter own and they are often held up as an example of how to run a club from a financial perspective.

Leicester were particularly hard hit by the pandemic as they have substantially higher crowds so higher ticket revenue, food and drink revenue etc. They're also more affected by the failure of other teams - three fewer home games means in the region of £2 million quid less revenue.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:59 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:20 pm

The vast majority are involved in grass roots clubs and only really watch internationals and this is the main issue, there just will never be the punters turning up to watch Prem rugby to really make it viable.

The depressing counter point to this is that grass roots clubs are on their arse with very limited exceptions, I'd say the vast majority of rugby fans do something else with their weekends until the internationals. I don't think the quickening death of grassroots rugby is unique to England mind.

That slightly weird article about the Top14 / ProD2 etc did make a very good point about how the scheduling screws us. In this country, you make a choice between playing for your local club and watching your local pro team / national side.

Yeah it's definitely something to look into. I.e. would local clubs do better with a "showpiece" game under lights on a Friday?

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:28 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:59 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:20 pm

The depressing counter point to this is that grass roots clubs are on their arse with very limited exceptions, I'd say the vast majority of rugby fans do something else with their weekends until the internationals. I don't think the quickening death of grassroots rugby is unique to England mind.

That slightly weird article about the Top14 / ProD2 etc did make a very good point about how the scheduling screws us. In this country, you make a choice between playing for your local club and watching your local pro team / national side.

Yeah it's definitely something to look into. I.e. would local clubs do better with a "showpiece" game under lights on a Friday?

In Ireland the soccer league, such as it is, plays a schedule offset from the Premiership for exactly this reason; they know they can't compete with it, so they don't try.

with no prem semi-finalists

So the game is, who from that squad stand a chance of making the World Cup squad proper.

I'd say these lot are certs:
Genge
Dombrandt
Sinckler
Stuart
Lawrence
Smith

These are likely:
Marler
Arundell
Walker
Care
Blamire*
Walker*

*Depends on LCD's availability.

Sinkers wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:48 am

with no prem semi-finalists

6 Bath forwards

Interested to see how Ewels goes, think a lot of criticism unwarranted but he's not really had a huge performance in a white shirt, and he's coming back from a bad injury.

Good to see Mercer getting a shot, and although I'd think the likes of (either of the) Willis are ahead of Ted Hill, Hill has ben excellent for Bath and deserves a run.

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:04 am So the game is, who from that squad stand a chance of making the World Cup squad proper.

I'd say these lot are certs:
Genge
Dombrandt
Sinckler
Stuart
Lawrence
Smith

These are likely:
Marler
Arundell
Walker
Care
Blamire*
Walker*

*Depends on LCD's availability.

I'd have Mercer over Dombrandt and reckon Theo Dan will get the nod over Jack Walker as third hooker as you say subject tp LCD's fitness.
Evidently Sam Simmonds declined his invitation to join the training group so will definitel;y not be in the final RWC squad

SaintK wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:50 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:04 am So the game is, who from that squad stand a chance of making the World Cup squad proper.

I'd say these lot are certs:
Genge
Dombrandt
Sinckler
Stuart
Lawrence
Smith

These are likely:
Marler
Arundell
Walker
Care
Blamire*
Walker*

*Depends on LCD's availability.

I'd have Mercer over Dombrandt and reckon Theo Dan will get the nod over Jack Walker as third hooker as you say subject tp LCD's fitness.
Evidently Sam Simmonds declined his invitation to join the training group so will definitel;y not be in the final RWC squad

Definitely potential bolters, but I can see Borthwick giving the edge to guys who've already been in the squad given how little time he's had to prep and coach the team.

Mercer can also play 7 in a pinch so I think he's got a great shot at making the squad.

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:04 am So the game is, who from that squad stand a chance of making the World Cup squad proper.

I'd say these lot are certs:
Genge
Dombrandt
Sinckler
Stuart
Lawrence
Smith

These are likely:
Marler
Arundell
Walker
Care
Blamire*
Walker*

*Depends on LCD's availability.

He'll only take 2x flyhalfs and I reckon Smith is the third wheel now.
Dombrandt has just not played well for England. Mercer could nudge him out. Surprised Tom Willis isn't in this prelim squad as well.

Edit: just seen Ewels in there. FFS.

Kawazaki wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:41 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:04 am So the game is, who from that squad stand a chance of making the World Cup squad proper.

I'd say these lot are certs:
Genge
Dombrandt
Sinckler
Stuart
Lawrence
Smith

These are likely:
Marler
Arundell
Walker
Care
Blamire*
Walker*

*Depends on LCD's availability.

He'll only take 2x flyhalfs and I reckon Smith is the third wheel now.
Dombrandt has just not played well for England. Mercer could nudge him out. Surprised Tom Willis isn't in this prelim squad as well.

Edit: just seen Ewels in there. FFS.

Willis has been stood down from the initial training squad as he was still playing for Toulouse last week
Same applies to the England players from the four teams that reached the Prem semi finals