Angry White Men

[fishfoodie]

I'd love to know how many of these goons have Irish ancestry, it was within current life times that the Irish were treated like dirt in the UK

Im going to push back on this - I've never seen the Irish treated like dirt in England even after stuff like the Warrington and Manchester bombings. During the 94 world cup many English people were supporting Ireland.

My cousin has a grandmother from Limerick, my Dad's two next door neighbours growing up in the 50s and 60s were the Flanagans and O'Connell's and the families are all friends today.

I always remember a friend of my brother, who worked as an architect in the UK for years & actually was Head architect on a new stand at a major Cricket ground, taking about the morning after the Brighton bombing; he followed his usual routine & went to his corner shop on the way to the Tube to pick up his daily copy of the Irish Times.

He said the guy behind the counter looked at him like the shit on his shoes, & never said a word, a guy he'd chat to every morning for years !

[epwc]

I’ve told you, it’s volume that’s the issue. But it doesn’t really matter, whatever I or anyone else says you’re determined to drag it back to white man bad

I’m not I just want to know what it is that’s driving these sentiments and yeah part is numbers but part as PB says is that places are changing in ways that previous residents don’t like. I’d wager a large part of that would be colour, language and culture driven. I think it’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise

[Paddington Bear]

I’ve told you, it’s volume that’s the issue. But it doesn’t really matter, whatever I or anyone else says you’re determined to drag it back to white man bad

I’m not I just want to know what it is that’s driving these sentiments and yeah part is numbers but part as PB says is that places are changing in ways that previous residents don’t like. I’d wager a large part of that would be colour, language and culture driven. I think it’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise

But this again comes down to scale. If the house up for sale on my all white road sells to an asian family and someone makes a comment, that’s racist and they can fuck off. If within a few years your town’s demographics have changed dramatically, I think it’s legitimate to not like it and oppose the change before it happens

[epwc]

If within a few years your town’s demographics have changed dramatically, I think it’s legitimate to not like it and oppose the change before it happens

Let’s forget the why, how would you oppose the change?

[Paddington Bear]

If within a few years your town’s demographics have changed dramatically, I think it’s legitimate to not like it and oppose the change before it happens

Let’s forget the why, how would you oppose the change?

Voting for parties that pledge to reduce immigration

[dpedin]

As famous Springbok captain Matt Damon said in Hollywood's greatest movie "times change".

They do indeed, ask the Great Plains Indians or a multitude of other first nation people

Or as the famous baseball player Yogi Berra said 'the future ain't what it used to be!'

[Slick]

I’ve told you, it’s volume that’s the issue. But it doesn’t really matter, whatever I or anyone else says you’re determined to drag it back to white man bad

I’m not I just want to know what it is that’s driving these sentiments and yeah part is numbers but part as PB says is that places are changing in ways that previous residents don’t like. I’d wager a large part of that would be colour, language and culture driven. I think it’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise

Which is all to do with numbers.

I think, and polling shows, that we are generally a pretty welcoming and tolerant society in the U.K that has welcomed the benefits of immigration both societally and economically. But when you get change at the rate it has happened in some places, it would cause issues where ever you are in the world and whatever the make up of indigenous and immigrant populations.

I think we can all agree there are some utter cunts about, but to put the blame squarely on white intolerance is just disingenuous and cowardly (not saying you are either)

[yermum]

Not sure which thread to put this gem

[epwc]

Voting for parties that pledge to reduce immigration

Every party pledges that, the Tories spent almost 20 years pledging that

[epwc]

Not sure which thread to put this gem

Harlow to Middlesbrough, I would say he’s a fuckwit but maybe I’m wrong

[epwc]

Which is all to do with numbers.

I think, and polling shows, that we are generally a pretty welcoming and tolerant society in the U.K that has welcomed the benefits of immigration both societally and economically. But when you get change at the rate it has happened in some places, it would cause issues where ever you are in the world and whatever the make up of indigenous and immigrant populations.

I think we can all agree there are some utter cunts about, but to put the blame squarely on white intolerance is just disingenuous and cowardly (not saying you are either)

If I thought white man = bad why would I live here? Half my fucking family is white

In general it’s the most welcoming and tolerant place I’ve been, and that’s why I choose to live here and am a passionate and proud Englishman

You absolutely cannot reduce immigration if lazy fuckers in places with high unemployment can’t get off their arses to find a job elsewhere. People come halfway across the world to work here.

It’s also unlikely to change unless white British people start doing the shit jobs too

[petej]

I’ve told you, it’s volume that’s the issue. But it doesn’t really matter, whatever I or anyone else says you’re determined to drag it back to white man bad

I’m not I just want to know what it is that’s driving these sentiments and yeah part is numbers but part as PB says is that places are changing in ways that previous residents don’t like. I’d wager a large part of that would be colour, language and culture driven. I think it’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise

Which is all to do with numbers.

I think, and polling shows, that we are generally a pretty welcoming and tolerant society in the U.K that has welcomed the benefits of immigration both societally and economically. But when you get change at the rate it has happened in some places, it would cause issues where ever you are in the world and whatever the make up of indigenous and immigrant populations.

I think we can all agree there are some utter cunts about, but to put the blame squarely on white intolerance is just disingenuous and cowardly (not saying you are either)

An anti-immigration government oversaw a net migration of near 750000 in 2022 which is approx 3 times what you were getting in the 2000s. That is an outlier but starkly shows the extent of their failure.

[Margin__Walker]

I'd love to know how many of these goons have Irish ancestry, it was within current life times that the Irish were treated like dirt in the UK

Im going to push back on this - I've never seen the Irish treated like dirt in England even after stuff like the Warrington and Manchester bombings. During the 94 world cup many English people were supporting Ireland.

My cousin has a grandmother from Limerick, my Dad's two next door neighbours growing up in the 50s and 60s were the Flanagans and O'Connell's and the families are all friends today.

I can't speak for everywhere and can't really comment on how it compared to today, but it was absolutely a thing for my father growing up in an Irish family in North London in the 60s.

Long gone by the time of Warrington and Manchester though

[fishfoodie]

I’m not I just want to know what it is that’s driving these sentiments and yeah part is numbers but part as PB says is that places are changing in ways that previous residents don’t like. I’d wager a large part of that would be colour, language and culture driven. I think it’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise

Which is all to do with numbers.

I think, and polling shows, that we are generally a pretty welcoming and tolerant society in the U.K that has welcomed the benefits of immigration both societally and economically. But when you get change at the rate it has happened in some places, it would cause issues where ever you are in the world and whatever the make up of indigenous and immigrant populations.

I think we can all agree there are some utter cunts about, but to put the blame squarely on white intolerance is just disingenuous and cowardly (not saying you are either)

An anti-immigration government oversaw a net migration of near 750000 in 2022 which is approx 3 times what you were getting in the 2000s. That is an outlier but starkly shows the extent of their failure.

Well yeah, because Brexit & the accompanying hostile environment meant that 100s of thousands of white, integrated Europeans left; & then add on others who survived Brexit, but Covid meant that a lot of lower income jobs in the likes of hospitality went home because it was too expensive to stay, & they never came back.

But all those jobs didn't disappear, so the UK needed people from outside the UK to fill them & surprise surprise, they settled in low income areas, because that's generally the only place you can get low cost housing on short notice.

[petej]

Which is all to do with numbers.

I think, and polling shows, that we are generally a pretty welcoming and tolerant society in the U.K that has welcomed the benefits of immigration both societally and economically. But when you get change at the rate it has happened in some places, it would cause issues where ever you are in the world and whatever the make up of indigenous and immigrant populations.

I think we can all agree there are some utter cunts about, but to put the blame squarely on white intolerance is just disingenuous and cowardly (not saying you are either)

If I thought white man = bad why would I live here? Half my fucking family is white

In general it’s the most welcoming and tolerant place I’ve been, and that’s why I choose to live here and am a passionate and proud Englishman

You absolutely cannot reduce immigration if lazy fuckers in places with high unemployment can’t get off their arses to find a job elsewhere. People come halfway across the world to work here.

It’s also unlikely to change unless white British people start doing the shit jobs too

People get trapped though in areas where they've torn out the public transport networks which is common areas outside the south. It is a bit of catch 22 for everyone. You can't move due to cost, you can't drive due to cost and you can't commute due to shit public transport.

[Slick]

Which is all to do with numbers.

I think, and polling shows, that we are generally a pretty welcoming and tolerant society in the U.K that has welcomed the benefits of immigration both societally and economically. But when you get change at the rate it has happened in some places, it would cause issues where ever you are in the world and whatever the make up of indigenous and immigrant populations.

I think we can all agree there are some utter cunts about, but to put the blame squarely on white intolerance is just disingenuous and cowardly (not saying you are either)

If I thought white man = bad why would I live here? Half my fucking family is white

In general it’s the most welcoming and tolerant place I’ve been, and that’s why I choose to live here and am a passionate and proud Englishman

You absolutely cannot reduce immigration if lazy fuckers in places with high unemployment can’t get off their arses to find a job elsewhere. People come halfway across the world to work here.

It’s also unlikely to change unless white British people start doing the shit jobs too

Plenty of white people do plenty of shit jobs. You are completely absurd

[JM2K6]

Have to say I'm surprised by so much pontificating on this.

There has never been a time in this country when there hasn't been a core of disaffected "local" people at risk of boiling over. What we have now is nothing special. Until we exist in a utopia, this will always be a problem.

The unhappy truth is that the problem isn't easily solved without total social and economic change far beyond the power of any government. Migration was just the obvious wedge issue used to other people's benefit. If it wasn't immigration, it simply would've been anything else.

The questions that need to be asked instead are:

- How were these people radicalised?
- Which groups and individuals bear responsibility for deliberately fanning the flames?
- How can we prevent this happening in future?
- What role did modern technology play in all of this and what can be done to prevent extremism, without putting unacceptable limits of freedom of speech?
- What counter extremism techniques are we missing?
- What safeguards should be in place to prevent bad actors in the media peddling disinformation?
- What consequences should there be for public servants who deliberately spread disinformation that leads to mass disorder?
- What are we missing in general education that might help prevent these events?

Unless you are actually in one of these groups of people, following the social media they're on, the telegram channels they're in, the fringe media they consume, the leaders they follow, all of you (us) are in exactly the same ivory towers arguing as if we're not. The problem isn't that there is a small but angry group of disaffected English people who have tough lives for specific reasons. Modern society is made of winners and losers and the extremes of that are only getting worse. Our sympathy and understanding, or lack of both, makes no difference to the reality that there will always be a group of people who are at risk of radicalisation and extremism, and the question is what do we need to do to prevent it.

[petej]

Which is all to do with numbers.

I think, and polling shows, that we are generally a pretty welcoming and tolerant society in the U.K that has welcomed the benefits of immigration both societally and economically. But when you get change at the rate it has happened in some places, it would cause issues where ever you are in the world and whatever the make up of indigenous and immigrant populations.

I think we can all agree there are some utter cunts about, but to put the blame squarely on white intolerance is just disingenuous and cowardly (not saying you are either)

An anti-immigration government oversaw a net migration of near 750000 in 2022 which is approx 3 times what you were getting in the 2000s. That is an outlier but starkly shows the extent of their failure.

Well yeah, because Brexit & the accompanying hostile environment meant that 100s of thousands of white, integrated Europeans left; & then add on others who survived Brexit, but Covid meant that a lot of lower income jobs in the likes of hospitality went home because it was too expensive to stay, & they never came back.

But all those jobs didn't disappear, so the UK needed people from outside the UK to fill them & surprise surprise, they settled in low income ares, because that's generally the only place you can get low cost housing on short notice.

I'm not unaware of what happened and all the fuckwittery around Brexit but for government that relentlessly pledged to reduce immigration it is a failure and of course they reached for the sticky plaster.

[epwc]

Plenty of white people do plenty of shit jobs. You are completely absurd

So why do we need so many immigrants? It’s a mystery

[Sandstorm]

An anti-immigration government oversaw a net migration of near 750000 in 2022 which is approx 3 times what you were getting in the 2000s. That is an outlier but starkly shows the extent of their failure.

Wait, are we surprised the shit house Tories were shithouse at doing the one thing they told everyone they were going to do well?

[petej]

An anti-immigration government oversaw a net migration of near 750000 in 2022 which is approx 3 times what you were getting in the 2000s. That is an outlier but starkly shows the extent of their failure.

Wait, are we surprised the shit house Tories were shithouse at doing the one thing they told everyone they were going to do well?

Nope it was depressingly predictable.

[epwc]

Have to say I'm surprised by so much pontificating on this.

There has never been a time in this country when there hasn't been a core of disaffected "local" people at risk of boiling over. What we have now is nothing special. Until we exist in a utopia, this will always be a problem.

The unhappy truth is that the problem isn't easily solved without total social and economic change far beyond the power of any government. Migration was just the obvious wedge issue used to other people's benefit. If it wasn't immigration, it simply would've been anything else.

The questions that need to be asked instead are:

- How were these people radicalised?
- Which groups and individuals bear responsibility for deliberately fanning the flames?
- How can we prevent this happening in future?
- What role did modern technology play in all of this and what can be done to prevent extremism, without putting unacceptable limits of freedom of speech?
- What counter extremism techniques are we missing?
- What safeguards should be in place to prevent bad actors in the media peddling disinformation?
- What consequences should there be for public servants who deliberately spread disinformation that leads to mass disorder?
- What are we missing in general education that might help prevent these events?

Unless you are actually in one of these groups of people, following the social media they're on, the telegram channels they're in, the fringe media they consume, the leaders they follow, all of you (us) are in exactly the same ivory towers arguing as if we're not. The problem isn't that there is a small but angry group of disaffected English people who have tough lives for specific reasons. Modern society is made of winners and losers and the extremes of that are only getting worse. Our sympathy and understanding, or lack of both, makes no difference to the reality that there will always be a group of people who are at risk of radicalisation and extremism, and the question is what do we need to do to prevent it.

Agree with that, but what about the people on the fringes?

[JM2K6]

An anti-immigration government oversaw a net migration of near 750000 in 2022 which is approx 3 times what you were getting in the 2000s. That is an outlier but starkly shows the extent of their failure.

Wait, are we surprised the shit house Tories were shithouse at doing the one thing they told everyone they were going to do well?

Nope it was depressingly predictable.

The Tories weaponised asylum seekers and campaigned on "stop the boats", a slogan heard many times over the last few days. The vast majority of those immigration figures come from entirely expected and legal migration as a result of deals made with other countries, for example India. I think it's important to not lose sight of that distinction.

[JM2K6]

Agree with that, but what about the people on the fringes?

An extremely difficult question that none of us can answer to any satisfaction, given that it essentially requires a total rethink of modern capitalism.

There will always be people on the fringes. I'm all for realistic ways to reduce the size of that fringe - inequality is a huge problem - but right now I am most concerned with how we prevent that fringe from becoming radicalised.

I also think it's not an entirely fair representation of the rioting groups to describe them all as being on the fringe of society. As you might have seen on social media, many of them have relatively comfortable and stable lives, even as they angrily push back over being called "far right" while espousing all the same views shared by the far right.

The fringe will always exist in some form, but so will angry racists, cold calculating racists, and powerful racists and their allies. The question is as much how do we prevent the latter from radicalising the former, as how do we help people on the fringes of society, which is something every government should concern itself with by default.

[petej]

Wait, are we surprised the shit house Tories were shithouse at doing the one thing they told everyone they were going to do well?

Nope it was depressingly predictable.

The Tories weaponised asylum seekers and campaigned on "stop the boats", a slogan heard many times over the last few days. The vast majority of those immigration figures come from entirely expected and legal migration as a result of deals made with other countries, for example India. I think it's important to not lose sight of that distinction.

I do acknowledge the distinction. The Tories though were careful to blur the lines.

[epwc]

An extremely difficult question that none of us can answer to any satisfaction, given that it essentially requires a total rethink of modern capitalism.

There will always be people on the fringes. I'm all for realistic ways to reduce the size of that fringe - inequality is a huge problem - but right now I am most concerned with how we prevent that fringe from becoming radicalised.

Yes, this is the biggest problem. I spent a lot of time talking to my big sisters boys when they were at uni, all the Islamic societies were rife with radicalism and they needed to know that there’s more to it than they were being groomed into. (This was just pre and post 9/11)

[epwc]

Plenty of white people do plenty of shit jobs. You are completely absurd

So why do we need so many immigrants? It’s a mystery

Absurd is something I’ve never been called thanks for that

[Paddington Bear]

Voting for parties that pledge to reduce immigration

Every party pledges that, the Tories spent almost 20 years pledging that

I think every party that has won an election has pledged to reduce it since the 80s. And because they’ve lied every time, we are where we are

[epwc]

Voting for parties that pledge to reduce immigration

Every party pledges that, the Tories spent almost 20 years pledging that

I think every party that has won an election has pledged to reduce it since the 80s. And because they’ve lied every time, we are where we are

So are we saying this is a problem with no achievable solution?

[Slick]

Plenty of white people do plenty of shit jobs. You are completely absurd

So why do we need so many immigrants? It’s a mystery

Absurd is something I’ve never been called thanks for that

[Paddington Bear]

Every party pledges that, the Tories spent almost 20 years pledging that

I think every party that has won an election has pledged to reduce it since the 80s. And because they’ve lied every time, we are where we are

So are we saying this is a problem with no achievable solution?

No I think it is entirely achievable, it has just become unpalatable to too large a section of our ‘elites’ to have any controls on migration, and do anything that might appear mean.

[epwc]

No I think it is entirely achievable, it has just become unpalatable to too large a section of our ‘elites’ to have any controls on migration, and do anything that might appear mean.

I agree it’s achievable, although I disagree with why it hasn’t been.

It seems to me that it suits the powers that be to have plebs with no prospects that they can stir up as necessary

I also agree with JMK that our version of capitalism is now out of control and has led to such huge disparities in wealth and influence that a lot of people can justifiably feel disempowered

[fishfoodie]

I think every party that has won an election has pledged to reduce it since the 80s. And because they’ve lied every time, we are where we are

So are we saying this is a problem with no achievable solution?

No I think it is entirely achievable, it has just become unpalatable to too large a section of our ‘elites’ to have any controls on migration, and do anything that might appear mean.

Oh come on !

Yes sure, you can stop mass immigration cold; no more Visas; but I'd give the UK maybe two years before you them had either a Coup, or a complete breakdown of society, with the complete destruction of your Economy, from the veg pickers to the City. There would be a flight of Capital such as has never been seen before, & in parallel there would be a collapse of all Public services.

Sure you could do it; but, Achievable != Sane

The Elites wouldn't give a fuck; they have assets & would bugger off with those assets leaving the rest to learn that the only thing worse that not getting what you want, is getting what you want !

[Paddington Bear]

No I think it is entirely achievable, it has just become unpalatable to too large a section of our ‘elites’ to have any controls on migration, and do anything that might appear mean.

I agree it’s achievable, although I disagree with why it hasn’t been.

It seems to me that it suits the powers that be to have plebs with no prospects that they can stir up as necessary

I also agree with JMK that our version of capitalism is now out of control and has led to such huge disparities in wealth and influence that a lot of people can justifiably feel disempowered

Agreed. And add to disempowerment the fact that on certain issues such as this voting does not change anything

[Paddington Bear]

So are we saying this is a problem with no achievable solution?

No I think it is entirely achievable, it has just become unpalatable to too large a section of our ‘elites’ to have any controls on migration, and do anything that might appear mean.

Oh come on !

Yes sure, you can stop mass immigration cold; no more Visas; but I'd give the UK maybe two years before you them had either a Coup, or a complete breakdown of society, with the complete destruction of your Economy, from the veg pickers to the City. There would be a flight of Capital such as has never been seen before, & in parallel there would be a collapse of all Public services.

Sure you could do it; but, Achievable != Sane

The Elites wouldn't give a fuck; they have assets & would bugger off with those assets leaving the rest to learn that the only thing worse that not getting what you want, is getting what you want !

I tell you what - take a look at how many visas we give out to skilled city workers and medical professionals then come back to me with why our society would collapse if we don’t give out 500,000+ visas a year. Also in the response point out where I said ‘no visas’. Perhaps look up much of what has happened in Denmark.

Oh, and if you think the current situation is going well, explain why there are race riots and then tell me your plans for how to accommodate adding 300-800,000 people a year to our population without everything turning to shit

[JM2K6]

I think every party that has won an election has pledged to reduce it since the 80s. And because they’ve lied every time, we are where we are

So are we saying this is a problem with no achievable solution?

No I think it is entirely achievable, it has just become unpalatable to too large a section of our ‘elites’ to have any controls on migration, and do anything that might appear mean.

It might be achievable. Is it actually desirable? And will it make the disaffected happy, or will those willing to stoke the flames simply take the concession as de facto proof they have the power to enact their own vicious plans? What happens if you clamp down on immigration then the next lot kick off because they want people deported?

[epwc]

It might be achievable. Is it actually desirable? And will it make the disaffected happy, or will those willing to stoke the flames simply take the concession as de facto proof they have the power to enact their own vicious plans? What happens if you clamp down on immigration then the next lot kick off because they want people deported?

Although I think the issue is way overblown I think there’s something wrong with a society that relies on mass migration to function.

[Paddington Bear]

So are we saying this is a problem with no achievable solution?

No I think it is entirely achievable, it has just become unpalatable to too large a section of our ‘elites’ to have any controls on migration, and do anything that might appear mean.

It might be achievable. Is it actually desirable? And will it make the disaffected happy, or will those willing to stoke the flames simply take the concession as de facto proof they have the power to enact their own vicious plans? What happens if you clamp down on immigration then the next lot kick off because they want people deported?

I think there is very little evidence that anyone but the nazi tattoo brigade want deportations. As I say, we are in the midst of a decade that is the largest demographic transformation in this island’s recorded history. Obviously an unprovable counterfactual, but net migration closer to 100,000 each year of the last decade and I’m not convinced we get scenes like this.

If you look at reasonably successful and stable multi ethnic societies (think Malaysia/Singapore etc), the fact of people’s current residence is beyond political debate. But the bargain struck is that the numbers/percentages don’t change.

As for proof that they have the power - as I’ve said above every party that has won an election for 40 years has promised to cut migration and done the opposite. You can’t just lie forever and expect people to suck it up.

[Paddington Bear]

It might be achievable. Is it actually desirable? And will it make the disaffected happy, or will those willing to stoke the flames simply take the concession as de facto proof they have the power to enact their own vicious plans? What happens if you clamp down on immigration then the next lot kick off because they want people deported?

Although I think the issue is way overblown I think there’s something wrong with a society that relies on mass migration to function.

Yes. To take the most emotive example - it is a government failure, a massive one, that we require foreign doctors. Can’t change overnight but can be changed in a decade or so

[JM2K6]

It might be achievable. Is it actually desirable? And will it make the disaffected happy, or will those willing to stoke the flames simply take the concession as de facto proof they have the power to enact their own vicious plans? What happens if you clamp down on immigration then the next lot kick off because they want people deported?

Although I think the issue is way overblown I think there’s something wrong with a society that relies on mass migration to function.

Sure, whatever the need is, it speaks to a hole in our society or economy. It's a sideshow anyway, given the migration pressures are going to ramp up thanks to climate change, our shared responsibility for certain wars, and the inevitable consequences of being a former empire with a lot of ties and political agreements across the world.

There are of course downsides to isolating ourselves, as well. But personally I am not keen on accepting the framing of the problem entirely from the lips of the far right. Somehow I don't think the university students, hedge fund guys, and middle class IT workers that form such a chunk of that big migration number has made any impact on the lives of the scumbags throwing bricks through windows. Let's not fall into the trap of pretending all of this is a good faith argument made by reasonable people, because whatever kernel of truth there is to the complaints over immigration, it is absolutely drowned in the sea of lies and disinformation.