NPR

Suggests to me that Billy is completely out of the picture despite all the friendly press recently. Willis the replacement tank option.

Don't see how we can lose the tournament with both Willis boys around (/s for those that need it)

Like a lot of recent England squads, you can build a decent team out of that lot, the question is will we?

Not much to dispute up front, although a cocked eyebrow at Underhill's selection given his lack of international game time the last couple of years, injury history and our back row depth. In the backs Porter, Cokanasiga and May should consider themselves fairly lucky to be in ahead of the likes of Freeman and Dingwall. Youngs lives a charmed life.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:15 am I assume Mercer is the new Armitage, assuming the mantle of the Prince Across The Water?

I know Gloucester's a bit like another country, but it isn't actually separated from the rest of England by any bodies of water.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:20 am Suggests to me that Billy is completely out of the picture despite all the friendly press recently. Willis the replacement tank option.

Yeah, agree. Assuming they take two 8's (rather than take one have Ludlum covering) it's likely Dombrandt/Willis or Dombrandt/Vunipola. If you really thought Billy would be fit and ready, you probably don't have Willis in camp.

Edit - Mercer was probably competing with Dombrandt really, rather than Willis

JvP, Youngs and Care. That makes me want to cry. In fact half that squad makes me want to cry.

Christ!!! Care, Youngs and May still there

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:30 am Christ!!! Care, Youngs and May still there

Care and Youngs FFS neither should be near the squad.

How can the likes of quirke, Mitchell and randall develop if you barely give them a chance? We really never moved on from the last world cup.

What happened to freeman at saints? I guess the jekyll and Hyde nature of saints means that he was dropped. Would prefer Kelly to Porter if selecting a Tigers centre.

Dislike the tighthead options, but then there's not a huge amount about. Dislike the rehab options in some cases! Basically the Vunipolas, Mako feels more and more like 2019 Dan Cole, without the scrummaging ability...

Hopefully Chessum is fit in plenty of time.

Like the backrow options.

Do agree that scrumhalf feels problematic, Quirke would have been a nice option to have in there. Wonder what it is about Radwan that coaches don't like. We see the obvious fact that he's greased lightning, but he keeps getting into the training squads, then not really doing much.

Care is a great 3rd choice tbh and he at least is a consistently excellent attacking playmaking option. Youngs I thought we'd seen the back of. Definitely unhappy to see them taking up 2 of the 3 slots. Quirke unlucky but he's had a really disrupted season. Randall's probably not good enough tbh.

Anyway it's not going to matter, we're going to play boring stupid shit so why not pick Youngs eh

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:24 am Don't see how we can lose the tournament with both Willis boys around (/s for those that need it)

Like a lot of recent England squads, you can build a decent team out of that lot, the question is will we?

Not much to dispute up front, although a cocked eyebrow at Underhill's selection given his lack of international game time the last couple of years, injury history and our back row depth. In the backs Porter, Cokanasiga and May should consider themselves fairly lucky to be in ahead of the likes of Freeman and Dingwall. Youngs lives a charmed life.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:15 am I assume Mercer is the new Armitage, assuming the mantle of the Prince Across The Water?

I know Gloucester's a bit like another country, but it isn't actually separated from the rest of England by any bodies of water.

It's another country, they do things differently there.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:08 am Care is a great 3rd choice tbh and he at least is a consistently excellent attacking playmaking option. Youngs I thought we'd seen the back of. Definitely unhappy to see them taking up 2 of the 3 slots. Quirke unlucky but he's had a really disrupted season. Randall's probably not good enough tbh.

Anyway it's not going to matter, we're going to play boring stupid shit so why not pick Youngs eh

Take the quins blinkers off. We've screwed this cycle so no benefit at all to have youngs or care in the squad over Mitchell, quirke or randall. Both are shadows of the players they were. Youngs getting more shit is just recency bias of him playing more and the one coming off the bench always looks better (been true for like 10+ years).

petej wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:35 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:08 am Care is a great 3rd choice tbh and he at least is a consistently excellent attacking playmaking option. Youngs I thought we'd seen the back of. Definitely unhappy to see them taking up 2 of the 3 slots. Quirke unlucky but he's had a really disrupted season. Randall's probably not good enough tbh.

Anyway it's not going to matter, we're going to play boring stupid shit so why not pick Youngs eh

Take the quins blinkers off. We've screwed this cycle so no benefit at all to have youngs or care in the squad over Mitchell, quirke or randall. Both are shadows of the players they were. Youngs getting more shit is just recency bias of him playing more and the one coming off the bench always looks better (been true for like 10+ years).

No Quins blinkers here. Youngs shouldn't be anywhere near this squad based on the last few years of performances, but as Eddie completely bottled the 'find replacement scrum halves assignment' all our potential alternatives are babies at international level which leaves them vulnerable when coaches lean towards experienced options. Mitchell should be in and only one of Youngs or Care. I've seen more than enough of Youngs slowing down our ball, passing to touch and running the wrong way over the last few years that it just can't be him.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:18 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:24 am Don't see how we can lose the tournament with both Willis boys around (/s for those that need it)

Like a lot of recent England squads, you can build a decent team out of that lot, the question is will we?

Not much to dispute up front, although a cocked eyebrow at Underhill's selection given his lack of international game time the last couple of years, injury history and our back row depth. In the backs Porter, Cokanasiga and May should consider themselves fairly lucky to be in ahead of the likes of Freeman and Dingwall. Youngs lives a charmed life.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:15 am I assume Mercer is the new Armitage, assuming the mantle of the Prince Across The Water?

I know Gloucester's a bit like another country, but it isn't actually separated from the rest of England by any bodies of water.

It's another country, they do things differently there.

Certainly in the Forest of Dean

Youngs played like an absolute twat in the semi final, petulant cheap shot merchant who got himself injured making a crap tackle. He should be nowhere near the squad. However, he played for Tigers under Borthwick, and as we're increasingly learning, Borthers is not Thinking Meat, so Youngs has to be there because George Ford made him look good. I agree with JMK26 that Quirke and Mitchell need more time to improve, but I'd still take one of them to build for the future and, also, because you know they can spark something from nothing.

Fu king hell hopefully but unlikely the impending world cup failure will result in Borthwich being yeeted out of sight.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:44 pm Scary number of players without immediate prospects.

Creevy has signedf for Sale as they have released Akker van de Merwe from his contract 12 months early to return to SA

petej wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:35 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:08 am Care is a great 3rd choice tbh and he at least is a consistently excellent attacking playmaking option. Youngs I thought we'd seen the back of. Definitely unhappy to see them taking up 2 of the 3 slots. Quirke unlucky but he's had a really disrupted season. Randall's probably not good enough tbh.

Anyway it's not going to matter, we're going to play boring stupid shit so why not pick Youngs eh

Take the quins blinkers off. We've screwed this cycle so no benefit at all to have youngs or care in the squad over Mitchell, quirke or randall. Both are shadows of the players they were. Youngs getting more shit is just recency bias of him playing more and the one coming off the bench always looks better (been true for like 10+ years).

I dunno man, Care's been consistently one of the top 3 9s in the league for a fair few years, is capable of fantastic attacking rugby, has a wealth of experience and has seen it all before. I do not agree he's a shadow of the player he used to be. Youngs is even more experienced but unlike Care he doesn't show the same ridiculous level of ability and is nowhere near the same country as his best. I can absolutely understand why a coach would pick one of them for this world cup, but not both.

Quirk just hasn't really had any kind of a season. Randall likewise and he had a disastrous into to international rugby. Mitchell probably deserves a shot, sure.

I just don't think a world cup is really about planning for the future, and if Care is a 3rd choice 9 that works - it makes a lot of sense to me. World cups are a special beast and you'd benefit a lot more from having him there than a tyro.

I think we're agreed that the main 2 should be a pair of the more recent choices. But it's slim pickings at the moment.

If we're going on club performances then Spencer has been a better 9 than both Youngs and Care. By miles.

England will win nothing and look shite doing it while Borthwick dithers his way through his 5 years contract.

What a colossal goatfuck.

If you're playing a kicking and percentage game then Spencer is the man, Borthwick is probably heartbroken that Wigglesworth has retired.

So, Spencer, then.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 8:16 pm If we're going on club performances then Spencer has been a better 9 than both Youngs and Care. By miles.

England will win nothing and look shite doing it while Borthwick dithers his way through his 5 years contract.

What a colossal goatfuck.

The joys of changing the boss mid-cycle !

You know, He knows, & We know that Youngs has been garbage for years, but Scabnose gets a pass, & can point to the non-existent player development under Eddie, & the gutlessness of the RFU management.

Who can blame him ? He got handed a shit sandwich, & now he's trying to do the best he can with whats on offer.

Spencer has had a whole lot of average games this season to go with some absolutely outstanding ones. Admittedly even he can't escape the Bath malaise, but he will not have enjoyed losing two thirds of his matches either.

Meanwhile, Care had the most try assists of anyone in the league despite Quins struggling for cohesion.

Fair to say that it's not hard to see why he was picked.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:53 pm Spencer has had a whole lot of average games this season to go with some absolutely outstanding ones. Admittedly even he can't escape the Bath malaise, but he will not have enjoyed losing two thirds of his matches either.

Meanwhile, Care had the most try assists of anyone in the league despite Quins struggling for cohesion.

Fair to say that it's not hard to see why he was picked.

Spencer is a better scrum half than Care in just about every skill category. He's faster and much much much much much much better defender as well. And he's still got his own hair.

No scrum half has made any claim to be a dead cert in that squad so I really struggle to get worked up about it. Mercer is bizarre. We saw Dombrandt’s heavy limitations in the 6N and have available one of the Top 14ms best players (admittedly unproven at test level).

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 6:30 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:53 pm Spencer has had a whole lot of average games this season to go with some absolutely outstanding ones. Admittedly even he can't escape the Bath malaise, but he will not have enjoyed losing two thirds of his matches either.

Meanwhile, Care had the most try assists of anyone in the league despite Quins struggling for cohesion.

Fair to say that it's not hard to see why he was picked.

Spencer is a better scrum half than Care in just about every skill category. He's faster and much much much much much much better defender as well. And he's still got his own hair.

But doesn't have the same ball skills, vision, or decision making. Certainly not a bad player, but it's the wrong year to be trying to make out Spencer has been unfairly treated.

Quins finished 8th didn't they?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:22 am No scrum half has made any claim to be a dead cert in that squad so I really struggle to get worked up about it. Mercer is bizarre. We saw Dombrandt’s heavy limitations in the 6N and have available one of the Top 14ms best players (admittedly unproven at test level).

Borthwick - I don't want to say I was right about him but I was right about him.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:13 am Quins finished 8th didn't they?

Yes. Not that it's the point I'm making, but Care had a much better winning record than Spencer. It's a team game, though, so I'm not holding Bath's poor performances against Spencer, I'm saying he didn't actually play well overall this season especially compared to when he first joined Bath. Care on the other hand continued to put in excellent personal performances despite Quins' struggles, hence the relevance of him being top of the tree for assists.

Now, if you'd mentioned Mitchell, I'd be in complete agreement.

Oxbow wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:51 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:23 pm Hopefully Saints will bring in someone that can tighten up the defence. The writing has been on the wall for a while!!

Northampton Saints can today confirm that coach Ian Vass has left the Club by mutual consent.
The 41-year-old joined the coaching set-up at cinch Stadium at Franklin’s Gardens in January 2020, looking after Saints’ defence, and has helped to guide the men in Black, Green and Gold to two Gallagher Premiership semi-finals in three seasons.

https://www.northamptonsaints.co.uk/ne ... saints

Not a surprise, never going to win anything with the worst defence in the league, even if the attack is the best.

Vass has secured a position as defence coach at Clermont!!!
I take it they haven't watched any of Saints matches the past season or two

SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 11:48 am

Oxbow wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:51 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:23 pm Hopefully Saints will bring in someone that can tighten up the defence. The writing has been on the wall for a while!!

https://www.northamptonsaints.co.uk/ne ... saints

Not a surprise, never going to win anything with the worst defence in the league, even if the attack is the best.

Vass has secured a position as defence coach at Clermont!!!
I take it they haven't watched any of Saints matches the past season or two

Clermont seem to be on a path of self-sabotage at the moment. Really fallen off from where they were even a couple of seasons back.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 11:48 am

Oxbow wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:51 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:23 pm Hopefully Saints will bring in someone that can tighten up the defence. The writing has been on the wall for a while!!

https://www.northamptonsaints.co.uk/ne ... saints

Not a surprise, never going to win anything with the worst defence in the league, even if the attack is the best.

Vass has secured a position as defence coach at Clermont!!!
I take it they haven't watched any of Saints matches the past season or two

That was quick, his departure from Saints must have been on the cards for a while. Good luck to him, maybe he'll go well there but if Saints are anything to go by Clermont will be shipping four tries per game minimum.

Arundell confirmed as off to Racing until 2024.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:19 am Care had a much better winning record than Spencer.

Quins won 9 league games, Bath won 8.

Jonathan Joseph signed for Pro D2 Biarritz, two year contract.
Bloody nice place to earn a living!

Meanwhile, Joseph leaves Bath after a decade-long stint at the club. The 54-Test cap centre departs the Premiership club despite having a year left on his contract.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 11:48 am

Oxbow wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:51 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:23 pm Hopefully Saints will bring in someone that can tighten up the defence. The writing has been on the wall for a while!!

https://www.northamptonsaints.co.uk/ne ... saints

Not a surprise, never going to win anything with the worst defence in the league, even if the attack is the best.

Vass has secured a position as defence coach at Clermont!!!
I take it they haven't watched any of Saints matches the past season or two

I think the Clermont spot he's being linked with is kicking (rather than defence) coach

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 1:22 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:19 am Care had a much better winning record than Spencer.

Quins won 9 league games, Bath won 8.

Care played 17, won 8. Spencer played 15, won 6.

In Europe, Care won 2/5 in the big cup, Spencer lost 3 and drew one in the Mickey mouse cup.

But it doesn't really matter that much. Despite Quins being a bit pony, Care had a good season and excelled in attack. Spencer was nowhere near his best and there's a reason why he's not on anyone's radar for England.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 11:07 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 1:22 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:19 am Care had a much better winning record than Spencer.

Quins won 9 league games, Bath won 8.

Care played 17, won 8. Spencer played 15, won 6.

In Europe, Care won 2/5 in the big cup, Spencer lost 3 and drew one in the Mickey mouse cup.

But it doesn't really matter that much. Despite Quins being a bit pony, Care had a good season and excelled in attack. Spencer was nowhere near his best and there's a reason why he's not on anyone's radar for England.

He's on plenty of people's radar, read this thread. Care is the outlier selection.

If you think Care's assist stats are notable then presumably you think Alex Goode should be in the England squad as well.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 8:38 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 11:07 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 1:22 pm

Quins won 9 league games, Bath won 8.

Care played 17, won 8. Spencer played 15, won 6.

In Europe, Care won 2/5 in the big cup, Spencer lost 3 and drew one in the Mickey mouse cup.

But it doesn't really matter that much. Despite Quins being a bit pony, Care had a good season and excelled in attack. Spencer was nowhere near his best and there's a reason why he's not on anyone's radar for England.

He's on plenty of people's radar, read this thread. Care is the outlier selection.

One person mockingly referring to the negativity of Borthwick and referencing Spencer in the same breath as Wigglesworth isn't quite the "plenty" you're hoping for.

If you think Care's assist stats are notable then presumably you think Alex Goode should be in the England squad as well.

Why, are they better than Care's and can be play 9?

Literally all I am saying here is that Care is an experienced option who's actually had a pretty good season and is England's most creative 9, and having him be a backup option makes some sense, but not with Youngs being brought back as well. Spencer has not had a good season and is not the player he was a few seasons ago when he was sorely mistreated by Eddie.

The player who is unlucky to miss out is Mitchell, who's had a fine season.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 9:57 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 8:38 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 11:07 pm

Care played 17, won 8. Spencer played 15, won 6.

In Europe, Care won 2/5 in the big cup, Spencer lost 3 and drew one in the Mickey mouse cup.

But it doesn't really matter that much. Despite Quins being a bit pony, Care had a good season and excelled in attack. Spencer was nowhere near his best and there's a reason why he's not on anyone's radar for England.

He's on plenty of people's radar, read this thread. Care is the outlier selection.

One person mockingly referring to the negativity of Borthwick and referencing Spencer in the same breath as Wigglesworth isn't quite the "plenty" you're hoping for.

If you think Care's assist stats are notable then presumably you think Alex Goode should be in the England squad as well.

Why, are they better than Care's and can be play 9?

Literally all I am saying here is that Care is an experienced option who's actually had a pretty good season and is England's most creative 9, and having him be a backup option makes some sense, but not with Youngs being brought back as well. Spencer has not had a good season and is not the player he was a few seasons ago when he was sorely mistreated by Eddie.

The player who is unlucky to miss out is Mitchell, who's had a fine season.

Spot on. He should be in the squad ahead of Youngs as he was in the 6N

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 9:57 am One person mockingly referring to the negativity of Borthwick and referencing Spencer in the same breath as Wigglesworth isn't quite the "plenty" you're hoping for.

I was using your definition of plenty in respect that "Care had a much better winning record than Spencer" based on Care played 17, won 8. Spencer played 15, won 6.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:24 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 9:57 am One person mockingly referring to the negativity of Borthwick and referencing Spencer in the same breath as Wigglesworth isn't quite the "plenty" you're hoping for.

I was using your definition of plenty in respect that "Care had a much better winning record than Spencer" based on Care played 17, won 8. Spencer played 15, won 6.

Yup. And a difference that only gets more stark when you add in Europe, despite Bath playing a tier down.

Anyway, keep tilting at that windmill!

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 11:50 am Anyway, keep tilting at that windmill!

Says the bloke who thinks Care is a credible option to play test rugby.