NPR

Australia's next 3 matches are;

New Zealand x2
France

Jones will be starting the RWC with a LLLLL record.

Amusing thing is, he's using virtually the exact same script to explain the Australia performances as he used after risible England performances.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:18 am I must admit I had a cackle upon seeing yesterday's result. Dave Rennie probably did too.

Obviously they've been our bunnies for a little while, but when making these appointments you've really got to look further than who's been beating your side consistently in isolation, so I really can't fathom why Australia thought bringing Eddie in would be a positive for them.

I expect Michael Cheika will be grinning from ear to ear all week what with their past history and him coaching the RGs to their first win in Australia since 2018.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:30 am Australia's next 3 matches are;

New Zealand x2
France

Jones will be starting the RWC with a LLLLL record.

Amusing thing is, he's using virtually the exact same script to explain the Australia performances as he used after risible England performances.

My mate knows Neil Hatley quite well. Sounds like the coaching group are bearing the brunt of the past two results!!!

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:00 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:30 am Australia's next 3 matches are;

New Zealand x2
France

Jones will be starting the RWC with a LLLLL record.

Amusing thing is, he's using virtually the exact same script to explain the Australia performances as he used after risible England performances.

My mate knows Neil Hatley quite well. Sounds like the coaching group are bearing the brunt of the past two results!!!

Are you saying that behind closed doors Jones blames everyone else but himself? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:02 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:00 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:30 am Australia's next 3 matches are;

New Zealand x2
France

Jones will be starting the RWC with a LLLLL record.

Amusing thing is, he's using virtually the exact same script to explain the Australia performances as he used after risible England performances.

My mate knows Neil Hatley quite well. Sounds like the coaching group are bearing the brunt of the past two results!!!

Are you saying that behind closed doors Jones blames everyone else but himself? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.

The thing about Eddie is that he won't really give a shit about the losses and neither will his players. He will be up front with them that it's all about the world cup and he'll be targeting a particular game but generally getting them in the right mindset and enthusiastic despite all available evidence that they're in a world of shit. And because he has done this time and time again, it buys him time and some measure of respect from the media and his bosses even if it's not really valid any more.

Even now I refuse to write them off for the world cup. But I think that's fairly sensible anyway. He's a better coach than Brian Ashton, for example, and England made a final with him and with a much worse squad. We've seen many teams head into the tournament with big expectations and shit the bed; we've seen underdogs have a great time. So I don't for a second truly believe Australia will crash out with a cup specialist at the helm and the biggest bunker mentality dickhead gearing them towards dying for their country. I am not going to rush out and put money on it.

As England fans we know what we can expect from Borthwick at the world cup. It's going to be set piece focused, regimented, kick heavy, and unimaginative. It is going to be doubly frustrating because although we have a good group of players, it's not obvious to me that our forwards are going to be to impose that particular game plan against several of our opponents and so either we will need a 2007 style set of opponents who can be dragged into a dogfight and beaten, or we'll just get humbled. Eddie for all his faults can be more imaginative and can come up with styles of play that are successful for a short period of time. The last world cup showed that, England were legitimately excellent and the level of detail and thought that went into everything from tackle heights to clearouts was obvious.

Borthwick has done nothing to suggest he can be that instrumental. Taking Tigers back to the top and reversing a decade of internal rot deserves plaudits. But it looks like he's trying to translate the players and the style to the international arena without any thought of how different it is there. It's very early days and it's entirely possible that the man everyone seems to think is a deep thinker about the game isn't actually a one note grind merchant incapable of coming up with something revolutionary to get England out of a hole.

But as it is, I said to a friend yesterday that the best England can hope for is some of the grit shown by Wales in their last world cup. They were outclassed, outgunned, and devoid of excitement, but they fought for every inch, went deep into the tournament, and gave SA a much bigger battle than we did. I think we are in a similar situation to that squad; we have big name players towards the end of their careers dealing with a few seasons of major inconsistency and poor form, new players failing to integrate properly, confusion over what the future looks like, and a deeply negative and conservative coaching staff.

Australia probably feel like they have nothing to lose. Losing every game before the world cup doesn't matter as long as they believe it's in service to the myth of Eddie's Grand Plan, which has a non zero chance of not being a myth. England on the other hand are all in on Borthwick and there's no chance he'd suffer consequences if England crash out really, so we're at far greater risk of further structural damage at the hands of an extremely callow head coach.

This seems like another huge red flag to me, but perhaps I'm missing something and actually there's nothing to worry about here:

Premiership clubs are lobbying the government to defer the repayment of Covid-era emergency loans, as they continue to operate on a financial knife-edge.

The top flight has been reduced to 10 teams following the collapse of Worcester, Wasps and London Irish last season - and those still afloat are grappling with a mountain of debt.

It is understood that a collective sum of around £100million is owed to the Government for funds which were handed out during the pandemic, and that repayments are due to begin soon. Some clubs may have even made initial instalments already.

Full article :-

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ffort.html

Difficult to know whether it's the owners playing games or a genuine problem.

Tbh my main takeaway from news down under is one of crippling all-encompassing fear for our match against Argentina.

That pool game has looked eminently loseable for at least a year. Them overcoming Australia hasn't done anything to alter my view on them.

Japan and Argentina are scary. Whilst topping the pool is obviously preferable, assuming the opponents would be Wales or Aus, even with Wales as they are, they'd absolutely come for us, I don't necessarily think that either would be significantly easier or harder.

Obviously the idea that Fiji takes the 2nd place in Pool C, makes topping our pool a nicer idea.

I'm basically more afraid of not getting out of the pool, than whether we place 1st or 2nd.

Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.

I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.

Agree, setting up for a Brighton comeuppance, but I struggle to see us losing to Japan. Whilst you'd clearly respect any RWC opponents, they don't look huge threat at the moment.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:26 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.

I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.

Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.

We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:42 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:26 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.

I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.

Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.

We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.

Japan in a world cup is a very different beast in my mind. We'll see though.

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:42 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:26 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.

I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.

Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.

We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.

Pool C's not looking too hot either. It's a weak whole half of the draw to be honest and two teams from pools C and D are going to be able to make the semis woefully unsuited to taking on their counterparts from the other side of the draw.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:52 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:42 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:26 am

I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.

Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.

We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.

Pool C's not looking too hot either. It's a weak whole half of the draw to be honest and two teams from pools C and D are going to be able to make the semis woefully unsuited to taking on their counterparts from the other side of the draw.

All bets are off at RWCs surely? England beat Argentina, Australia and NZ on the way to the final and looked completely unprepared for that game

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:34 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:52 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:42 am

Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.

We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.

Pool C's not looking too hot either. It's a weak whole half of the draw to be honest and two teams from pools C and D are going to be able to make the semis woefully unsuited to taking on their counterparts from the other side of the draw.

All bets are off at RWCs surely? England beat Argentina, Australia and NZ on the way to the final and looked completely unprepared for that game

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some teams go exactly as you'd expect, others pull something out of the bag. I don't think form going in can be completely ignored.

The NZ semi was the first game England played against decent opposition in 2019, beating those Aus and Argentina teams wasn't much of an achievement.

Underhill and Rodd cut from the squad.
Not sure Underhill should still be playing with nall the concussion issues he's had
A little surprised about Rodd though with Borthwick persuading Marler to rejoing the squad it was always llikely to happen.

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:00 am Underhill and Rodd cut from the squad.
Not sure Underhill should still be playing with nall the concussion issues he's had
A little surprised about Rodd though with Borthwick persuading Marler to rejoing the squad it was always llikely to happen.

Not watched much this season, but Rodd seems like a very handy player. However, Marler is very good, Genge too, and I think VRR is still in the squad?

You can build some tasty packs with a huge amount of rucking/turnover potential. Best way to kill all the quick ball that the likes of NZ thrive on.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:49 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:00 am Underhill and Rodd cut from the squad.
Not sure Underhill should still be playing with nall the concussion issues he's had
A little surprised about Rodd though with Borthwick persuading Marler to rejoing the squad it was always llikely to happen.

Not watched much this season, but Rodd seems like a very handy player. However, Marler is very good, Genge too, and I think VRR is still in the squad?

You can build some tasty packs with a huge amount of rucking/turnover potential. Best way to kill all the quick ball that the likes of NZ thrive on.

Ah yes, ! forgot about him!

Mako is also still lurking on the rehab list with a couple of others. The press release made a point of saying that those players were being considered for the final squad.

Mako, Billy, Chessum and a couple of others isn't it?

Hoping the Vunipola's don't make it.

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:00 am Underhill and Rodd cut from the squad.
Not sure Underhill should still be playing with nall the concussion issues he's had
A little surprised about Rodd though with Borthwick persuading Marler to rejoing the squad it was always llikely to happen.

It is a worry, and regardless of that he's only played (I think) 8 matches this season just passed so a World Cup was always a stretch.

I only checked out the early fixtures so completely missed this when I looked at the new season fixture lists - the league will pause in late Jan through to March to clear the decks for the 6N.

It'll start a bit later but still overlap with latter end of World Cup, and end with the final in early June.

Others who are more observant than me probably picked this up already. Has this happened before?

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:34 am I only checked out the early fixtures so completely missed this when I looked at the new season fixture lists - the league will pause in late Jan through to March to clear the decks for the 6N.

It'll start a bit later but still overlap with latter end of World Cup, and end with the final in early June.

Others who are more observant than me probably picked this up already. Has this happened before?

We discussed it a few months ago - next season is insane really.

In other news, Marcus Smith has extended his contract at Quins.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:55 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:34 am I only checked out the early fixtures so completely missed this when I looked at the new season fixture lists - the league will pause in late Jan through to March to clear the decks for the 6N.

It'll start a bit later but still overlap with latter end of World Cup, and end with the final in early June.

Others who are more observant than me probably picked this up already. Has this happened before?

We discussed it a few months ago - next season is insane really.

In other news, Marcus Smith has extended his contract at Quins.

Thought it would have been mentioned. As a club fan I like it in concept, but as it stands it just makes the season mental - especially for internationals.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:12 am Mako, Billy, Chessum and a couple of others isn't it?

Hoping the Vunipola's don't make it.

Lawrence and Walker are the other two. Lawrence is probably the only one I'd be waiting for to prove his fitness given our lack of 12 options.

Even with Sarries going well neither Vunipola was in form that demanded selection. I wouldn't want to gamble on how they'll be playing after missing most of the tournament prep through injury.

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:01 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:55 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:34 am I only checked out the early fixtures so completely missed this when I looked at the new season fixture lists - the league will pause in late Jan through to March to clear the decks for the 6N.

It'll start a bit later but still overlap with latter end of World Cup, and end with the final in early June.

Others who are more observant than me probably picked this up already. Has this happened before?

We discussed it a few months ago - next season is insane really.

In other news, Marcus Smith has extended his contract at Quins.

Thought it would have been mentioned. As a club fan I like it in concept, but as it stands it just makes the season mental - especially for internationals.

CEOs and DoRs of the clubs who've openly advocated for the 10 team league went big on being able to see international stars more often. They seem to think it's key to driving attendances and general interest in the league.

I remain somewhat unconvinced.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:12 am Hoping the Vunipola's don't make it.

That's a shit thing to say to be honest. Especially when Ben Youngs is still fucking in.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:56 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:12 am Hoping the Vunipola's don't make it.

That's a shit thing to say to be honest. Especially when Ben Youngs is still fucking in.

Hope Youngs doesn't make it either.... but I don't see how that's possible.

When I say don't make it, I mean in the squad, not in terms of being injured.

Squad changes:

Billy and Lawrence passed fit to join up and Rodd's been brought back in.

Rapava Ruskin and Murley out.

May and Cokanasiga very lucky boys

Indeed. Other than experience it's really not clear what they have to offer over other options and there comes a point where form has to trump experience. One thing the All Blacks always seem consistently good at is bringing through new wingers when it's time.

Rodd back in... Bit of flip flopping going on

I'm getting the distinct impression that Borthwick is an utterly shite selector.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:28 pm Indeed. Other than experience it's really not clear what they have to offer over other options and there comes a point where form has to trump experience. One thing the All Blacks always seem consistently good at is bringing through new wingers when it's time.

Mostly they just seem to bring through new wingers.

Some nations go after the necks of their tighthead props from a young age, NZ seem to go after ligaments and twitch muscle on young and agile, speedsters

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 6:33 pm Squad changes:

Billy and Lawrence passed fit to join up and Rodd's been brought back in.

Rapava Ruskin and Murley out.

i know, lets drop the top try scorer in the prem and the form loosehead prop....fucking clowns...seriously Borthwick is a fucking clown

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:24 am Yeah, a few more signings here and there. Powell was terrible last season, for a player with a decent pedigree. McKeller will know him well though and I guess he'll be third choice at Leicester anyway.

Ben Atkins - Rams
Matt Cornish
Agustín Creevy - Sale
Ignacio Ruiz
Lovejoy Chawatama - Harlequins
Luke Green
Ciaran Parker
Danilo Fischetti
Will Goodrick-Clarke
Ollie Hoskins - Saracens
Josh Caulfield - Bristol
Adam Coleman
Chunya Munga - Northampton
Api Ratuniyarawa
Ed Scragg - Scarlets
Josh Basham
Ben Donnell - Gloucester
Jack Cooke
So'otala Fa'aso'o - Perpignan
Juan Martín González
Izaia Moore-Aiono
Tom Pearson - Northampton
Matt Rogerson (c)- Leicester
Josh Smart
Caolan Englefield - Gloucester
Joe Powell - Leicester
Ben White - Toulon
Jacob Atkins - Rovigo
Paddy Jackson - Lyon
Rory Jennings - Newcastle
Tom Hitchcock
Benhard Janse van Rensburg - Bristol
Will Joseph - Harlequins
Luca Morisi
Eddie Poolman
Matt Williams
Ben Loader
Lucio Cinti - Saracens
Henry Arundell - Racing 92
Kyle Rowe
Tom Collins
Michael Dykes - Gloucester

Calum Scott
Joe Vajner
Afolabi Fasogbon - Gloucester
Tarek Haffar - Northampton
Mikey Summerfield
Chandler Cunningham-South - Harlequins
Jarlath Gleeson
Lucas Brooke
Ollie Allan - Leicester
Monty Bradbury
Conor Cross
Jake Shortland
Jack Walsh
Alexander Harmes
Ralph McEachran
Rory Taylor - Gloucester
Finn Worley Brady
Toby Maddock
Charlie Moss

Sounds like Sarries have pipped Bristol in signing Juan Martín González for next season