NPR

Crazy back row options for them next season.

Latest list. Actually pleasantly surprised by how many have picked up contracts already before the end of July. It looks like most of the senior squad will before the start of the season (albeit with the upheaval of unplanned moves and potential pay cuts). A few of those left like Loader and Collins sound like they have signed and are just waiting for announcements. Can't imagine the like of WGC, Ruiz, Basham and Morisi will have too much of an issue.

The others are likely struggling for prem or equivalent gigs.

Still some good academy prospects there. Vajner, Brooke, Bradbury and Harmes in particular.

Ben Atkins - Rams (ND1)
Matt Cornish - Ealing
Agustín Creevy - Sale
Ignacio Ruiz
Lovejoy Chawatama - Harlequins
Luke Green
Ciaran Parker
Danilo Fischetti - Zebre
Will Goodrick-Clarke
Ollie Hoskins - Saracens
Josh Caulfield - Bristol
Adam Coleman - Bordeaux
Chunya Munga - Northampton
Api Ratuniyarawa - Bayonne
Ed Scragg - Scarlets
Josh Basham
Ben Donnell - Gloucester
Jack Cooke
So'otala Fa'aso'o - Perpignan
Juan Martín González - Saracens
Izaia Moore-Aiono
Tom Pearson - Northampton
Matt Rogerson (c)- Leicester
Josh Smart
Caolan Englefield - Gloucester
Joe Powell - Leicester
Ben White - Toulon
Jacob Atkins - Rovigo
Paddy Jackson - Lyon
Rory Jennings - Newcastle
Tom Hitchcock - Ealing
Benhard Janse van Rensburg - Bristol
Will Joseph - Harlequins
Luca Morisi
Eddie Poolman
Matt Williams
Ben Loader
Lucio Cinti - Saracens
Henry Arundell - Racing 92
Kyle Rowe - Glasgow
Tom Collins
Michael Dykes - Gloucester

Calum Scott - Rams (ND1)
Joe Vajner
Afolabi Fasogbon - Gloucester
Tarek Haffar - Northampton
Mikey Summerfield - Bath
Chandler Cunningham-South - Harlequins
Jarlath Gleeson - Lyon
Lucas Brooke
Ollie Allan - Leicester
Monty Bradbury
Conor Cross
George Makepeace-Cubitt - Rams (ND1)
Jake Shortland
Jack Walsh
Alexander Harmes
Ralph McEachran - Sale
Rory Taylor - Gloucester
Finn Worley Brady
Toby Maddock
Charlie Moss

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:50 pm Crazy back row options for them next season.

It's going to be some backrow that Saracens can put out every week. Theo McFarland was the best player in the league before he got injured, Ben Earl seems to play rugby with cheat modes activated, BillyV is the dump truck and now Saracens have added the Argentinian version of McFarland to go with Andy Christie, Ollie Stoneham and Toby Knight.

They might not miss Jackson Wray as much as at I thought they would but he still leaves a big hole to fill.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:56 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:50 pm Crazy back row options for them next season.

It's going to be some backrow that Saracens can put out every week. Theo McFarland was the best player in the league before he got injured, Ben Earl seems to play rugby with cheat modes activated, BillyV is the dump truck and now Saracens have added the Argentinian version of McFarland to go with Andy Christie, Ollie Stoneham and Toby Knight.

They might not miss Jackson Wray as much as at I thought they would but he still leaves a big hole to fill.

Tom Willis says "Hi" as well

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 7:54 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:56 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:50 pm Crazy back row options for them next season.

It's going to be some backrow that Saracens can put out every week. Theo McFarland was the best player in the league before he got injured, Ben Earl seems to play rugby with cheat modes activated, BillyV is the dump truck and now Saracens have added the Argentinian version of McFarland to go with Andy Christie, Ollie Stoneham and Toby Knight.

They might not miss Jackson Wray as much as at I thought they would but he still leaves a big hole to fill.

Tom Willis says "Hi" as well

Of course, forgot about him. Does look a bit light on fetchers though. Maybe a brilliant new McCall tactical innovation will reveal itself?

Willis was very good at turning the ball over for Wasps during his brother's last injury layoff.

Yeah, Sarries have done very well here:

Uncapped (for now!):
Tom Parton (25yo - excellent backup at 15)
Tom Willis (24yo - obvious near-future replacement for Billy, huge carrier)
Gareth Simpson (25yo - experienced player for his age, pretty highly rated)
Ollie Hoskins (30yo - good squad player)

Internationals:
Lucio Cinti (23yo, 15 caps - very classy operator, currently showcasing his skills in the RC; like a quicker but slighter Marcelo Bosch)
Juan Martin Gonzalez (22yo, 22 caps - very rapid, high energy player. Think he's going to be a real star)

That's a great set of signings, excellent age profiles, all solving various potential issues in the squad.

Also I'd not be surprised if JMG played 7 a fair amount if Earl's absent. He has a lot of pace and a lot of nous. He played 7 a load for Irish, plus has started there for Argentina a few times and was apparently a full-time 7 in the U20s according to some googling. I had no idea who he was until this season but after actually watching him play I could see why he was so highly rated.

Yeah, Gonazales is a superb signing.

Very experienced for someone so young. Has looked stand out in the RC and turned up with some huge game changing moments when required. Can play 6 or 7 at a top level. Suffered sometimes at LI in happening to be there at the same time as Pearson, who is a bit more in your face as an on pitch presence and tended to get the nod at 7. And then having the side captained by the 6, so losing out on that front sometimes too.

Will be interesting to see him at Sarries, where he'll be pushing for selection against McFarland (who I presume is now fit?) and Earl for much of the season.

Cinti should do really well there too. Smart, versatile player. Tall and wiry for a wing, great aerially and can cover centre.

Gonzales could do with the highlight reel treatment really. Real pace and power to go along with solid back row basics and being a handy third lineout option.

No guesses who has joint most appearances in this

Someone has edited out the Owen Farrell back catalogue of horror passes. And actually for someone who could pass the Will Greenwood special from 2003 is also missing, one might observe he had his mind elsewhere

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 7:51 am Someone has edited out the Owen Farrell back catalogue of horror passes. And actually for someone who could pass the Will Greenwood special from 2003 is also missing, one might observe he had his mind elsewhere

Are you referring to him forgetting to dot the ball down for the 22? Not sure him chucking the ball forward really counts when he thought play was dead

Theo McFarland has the potential to be best player in the world....that is a ridiculous level of backrow resources Sarries have.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 7:51 am Someone has edited out the Owen Farrell back catalogue of horror passes. And actually for someone who could pass the Will Greenwood special from 2003 is also missing, one might observe he had his mind elsewhere

Playing outside Ben Youngs at test level must be an absolute nightmare.

Murley called back into training squad
No reason given as yet

Here we go.
Shit or bust for a few of those I reckon
England: Steward; Malins, Marchant, Porter, Cokanasiga; Smith, Care; Genge (capt), Blamire, Stuart; Ribbans, Martin; Ludlam, Pearson, Dombrandt.

Replacements: Dan, Rodd, Sinckler, Hill, T Willis, Van Poortvliet, Ford, Slade.

Big B team energy about most of the starting selections.

Yeah, that's the "possibles" bar Steward and Genge. Suggests we're going for a dump truck 8 (Willis or Billy - hoping the former, because Billy has the twin millstones of being shit after injury and being shit at world cups).

Thanks for picking Porter at 12 Borthers, real fucking genius stuff. Oh well, hope springs eternal, maybe this will be the time Porter shines.

Hope Dan and Rodd get good time off the bench and that Pearson can strut his stuff.

Who jumps at the back of the lineout?

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 12:08 pm Who jumps at the back of the lineout?

Ludlam and they'll move Martin about.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 11:51 am Big B team energy about most of the starting selections.

Borthwick said the team choice 'wasn't a selection shootout' and picks a team which is quite clearly a selection shootout.

It's like Yes Minister. Never believe something until it's been officially denied.

Genuine question - do most of you guys see Lawes as a 2nd row that can play well at 6, or the other way round?

I definitely see him as a 2nd row who can fill in (albeit very well) at 6.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:23 pm Genuine question - do most of you guys see Lawes as a 2nd row that can play well at 6, or the other way round?

I definitely see him as a 2nd row who can fill in (albeit very well) at 6.

He's not started a game in the second row for almost 4 years now.

He's a six these days

Lawes hasn't played lock for Saints for years, he's changed his body shape and style of play to be a 6. He could still fill in at lock if needed (as against Ireland), but he's very much a 6 these days.

Ahh, didn't realise that. I thought they tried it a few times and realised he was quite good. I'll wander away quietly.

He was starting 6 for all 3 SA Lions tests in 2021 - a series I'm sure we've all forgotten already.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:45 pm Ahh, didn't realise that. I thought they tried it a few times and realised he was quite good. I'll wander away quietly.

You've got the excuse of being Scottish tbf Slick.

Plenty of England fans still seem to flood various comment sections and corners of social media bemused at Lawes not being on the team sheet at lock.

inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:59 pm He was starting 6 for all 3 SA Lions tests in 2021 - a series I'm sure we've all forgotten already.

Why don't you stop picking on me.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:12 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:45 pm Ahh, didn't realise that. I thought they tried it a few times and realised he was quite good. I'll wander away quietly.

You've got the excuse of being Scottish tbf Slick.

Plenty of England fans still seem to flood various comment sections and corners of social media bemused at Lawes not being on the team sheet at lock.

Well he's a good player with a number of attributes that help at 6, but his decision making and speed when it comes to the breakdown aren't bad as such, they're just average by test standards, and average isn't very good. So a lot of people want a very good player in the side but not in essence proving such a problem in supporting multiphase.

The more we just kick the ball away and never try to play the less Lawes at 6 is an issue. So it does depend too what the attack system looks like. And also it depends who the rest of the pack and the centres are.

Not sure there's more to come from Lawes in this, he has massively improved handling and carrying, and yet there's still the breakdown

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:28 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:12 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:45 pm Ahh, didn't realise that. I thought they tried it a few times and realised he was quite good. I'll wander away quietly.

You've got the excuse of being Scottish tbf Slick.

Plenty of England fans still seem to flood various comment sections and corners of social media bemused at Lawes not being on the team sheet at lock.

Well he's a good player with a number of attributes that help at 6, but his decision making and speed when it comes to the breakdown aren't bad as such, they're just average by test standards, and average isn't very good. So a lot of people want a very good player in the side but not in essence proving such a problem in supporting multiphase.

The more we just kick the ball away and never try to play the less Lawes at 6 is an issue. So it does depend too what the attack system looks like. And also it depends who the rest of the pack and the centres are.

Not sure there's more to come from Lawes in this, he has massively improved handling and carrying, and yet there's still the breakdown

Lawes is a genuinely good player but his potential has never been fully realised due to him being shunted between lock and back row and injuries. I would have kept him in 2nd row from the beginning and developed him there. He is good enough to do a shift at 6 but as said above isn't really fast enough nor has the ability to play back row at the highest level. However I would still have him in the team as he gives 100% and has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. It is a shame he has been moved around as I think he would have been a top 2nd row player and a good partner for Itoje.

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:45 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:28 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:12 pm

You've got the excuse of being Scottish tbf Slick.

Plenty of England fans still seem to flood various comment sections and corners of social media bemused at Lawes not being on the team sheet at lock.

Well he's a good player with a number of attributes that help at 6, but his decision making and speed when it comes to the breakdown aren't bad as such, they're just average by test standards, and average isn't very good. So a lot of people want a very good player in the side but not in essence proving such a problem in supporting multiphase.

The more we just kick the ball away and never try to play the less Lawes at 6 is an issue. So it does depend too what the attack system looks like. And also it depends who the rest of the pack and the centres are.

Not sure there's more to come from Lawes in this, he has massively improved handling and carrying, and yet there's still the breakdown

Lawes is a genuinely good player but his potential has never been fully realised due to him being shunted between lock and back row and injuries. I would have kept him in 2nd row from the beginning and developed him there. He is good enough to do a shift at 6 but as said above isn't really fast enough nor has the ability to play back row at the highest level. However I would still have him in the team as he gives 100% and has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. It is a shame he has been moved around as I think he would have been a top 2nd row player and a good partner for Itoje.

I agree with all of this. The main reason I asked is that he my favourite England player, the one guy I'd love to have in a Scotland shirt

Thing is he always struggled for size to be a lock, and his side of the scrum when he played lock, tended to struggle too.

Considering how well he's adapted to 6 after not being made to play lock, I think he'd have been better off being 6 the whole time.

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:45 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:28 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:12 pm

You've got the excuse of being Scottish tbf Slick.

Plenty of England fans still seem to flood various comment sections and corners of social media bemused at Lawes not being on the team sheet at lock.

Well he's a good player with a number of attributes that help at 6, but his decision making and speed when it comes to the breakdown aren't bad as such, they're just average by test standards, and average isn't very good. So a lot of people want a very good player in the side but not in essence proving such a problem in supporting multiphase.

The more we just kick the ball away and never try to play the less Lawes at 6 is an issue. So it does depend too what the attack system looks like. And also it depends who the rest of the pack and the centres are.

Not sure there's more to come from Lawes in this, he has massively improved handling and carrying, and yet there's still the breakdown

Lawes is a genuinely good player but his potential has never been fully realised due to him being shunted between lock and back row and injuries. I would have kept him in 2nd row from the beginning and developed him there. He is good enough to do a shift at 6 but as said above isn't really fast enough nor has the ability to play back row at the highest level. However I would still have him in the team as he gives 100% and has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. It is a shame he has been moved around as I think he would have been a top 2nd row player and a good partner for Itoje.

If that's not a career of realised potential it's pretty close to. At club and country level he's performed exceptionally well, in different squads, in different roles, in different systems , and he's improved as he's gone along

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:45 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:28 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:12 pm

You've got the excuse of being Scottish tbf Slick.

Plenty of England fans still seem to flood various comment sections and corners of social media bemused at Lawes not being on the team sheet at lock.

Well he's a good player with a number of attributes that help at 6, but his decision making and speed when it comes to the breakdown aren't bad as such, they're just average by test standards, and average isn't very good. So a lot of people want a very good player in the side but not in essence proving such a problem in supporting multiphase.

The more we just kick the ball away and never try to play the less Lawes at 6 is an issue. So it does depend too what the attack system looks like. And also it depends who the rest of the pack and the centres are.

Not sure there's more to come from Lawes in this, he has massively improved handling and carrying, and yet there's still the breakdown

Lawes is a genuinely good player but his potential has never been fully realised due to him being shunted between lock and back row and injuries. I would have kept him in 2nd row from the beginning and developed him there. He is good enough to do a shift at 6 but as said above isn't really fast enough nor has the ability to play back row at the highest level. However I would still have him in the team as he gives 100% and has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. It is a shame he has been moved around as I think he would have been a top 2nd row player and a good partner for Itoje.

He's also produced stellar performances at 6 and was good enough to be the clear best option for the Lions there not long ago. He's clearly got the ability to play back row at the highest level.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:42 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:45 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:28 pm

Well he's a good player with a number of attributes that help at 6, but his decision making and speed when it comes to the breakdown aren't bad as such, they're just average by test standards, and average isn't very good. So a lot of people want a very good player in the side but not in essence proving such a problem in supporting multiphase.

The more we just kick the ball away and never try to play the less Lawes at 6 is an issue. So it does depend too what the attack system looks like. And also it depends who the rest of the pack and the centres are.

Not sure there's more to come from Lawes in this, he has massively improved handling and carrying, and yet there's still the breakdown

Lawes is a genuinely good player but his potential has never been fully realised due to him being shunted between lock and back row and injuries. I would have kept him in 2nd row from the beginning and developed him there. He is good enough to do a shift at 6 but as said above isn't really fast enough nor has the ability to play back row at the highest level. However I would still have him in the team as he gives 100% and has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. It is a shame he has been moved around as I think he would have been a top 2nd row player and a good partner for Itoje.

He's also produced stellar performances at 6 and was good enough to be the clear best option for the Lions there not long ago. He's clearly got the ability to play back row at the highest level.

This ^ And, he hasn't really played Lock for years.

However, at 34 he needs to be moved on post World Cup, either straight away (probably only if he retires) or phased out for his successor in the next two years.

Rugby shouldn't just be about RWC cycles, but the refusal to move on has led us to our current scrum half situation with Youngs billion caps to everyone else's handful, barring Care, who has been up and down in his Test career, sometimes genuinely off the charts, others...less so.

Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 1:24 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:42 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:45 pm

Lawes is a genuinely good player but his potential has never been fully realised due to him being shunted between lock and back row and injuries. I would have kept him in 2nd row from the beginning and developed him there. He is good enough to do a shift at 6 but as said above isn't really fast enough nor has the ability to play back row at the highest level. However I would still have him in the team as he gives 100% and has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. It is a shame he has been moved around as I think he would have been a top 2nd row player and a good partner for Itoje.

He's also produced stellar performances at 6 and was good enough to be the clear best option for the Lions there not long ago. He's clearly got the ability to play back row at the highest level.

This ^ And, he hasn't really played Lock for years.

Which doesn't obviate he doesn't really play as a loose forward. He plays like a lock at 6. You might want that, it's popular with many coaches around the world so hardly just fans, equally it's not hard to see why it's not what some would seek

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:59 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 1:24 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:42 pm

He's also produced stellar performances at 6 and was good enough to be the clear best option for the Lions there not long ago. He's clearly got the ability to play back row at the highest level.

This ^ And, he hasn't really played Lock for years.

Which doesn't obviate he doesn't really play as a loose forward. He plays like a lock at 6. You might want that, it's popular with many coaches around the world so hardly just fans, equally it's not hard to see why it's not what some would seek

He plays very much like a South African blindside. Relentless tackler and big hitter, lots of cleanout work, decent over the ball at the breakdown, heavy carrier. Excellent lineout option. More mobile than a big lock. Less mobile than an openside.

I've not watched much of the prem last season, but has Dickson really got good enough to be reffing NZ/aus in the bled?

Good opportunity to gain some international experience in one of those contender v minnow World Cup warmups.