NPR

Thought Ford was decent at 10 and Earl carried well.

Just lulling the other teams into a false sense of security. All part of the plan.

And surely Ben Youngs is retired after this RWC

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 6:49 pm And surely Ben Youngs is retired after this RWC

Dank Hole doing a job on some Welsh amateurs, another three world cup cycles coming up!

Credit to the players who turned it around on the day. Ford made a real difference when he came on. Earl was huge, George really good, Marchant also backed up last week's display.

Some real shockers from a few and mediocrity from others. Stuart was rubbish, Steward really stupid after having a good game before that. Farrell started brightly but nosedived after that and made far too many errors of execution and decision making - his card came from the inevitable counter attack by Wales after he'd kicked away good front foot attacking ball to a team with a two man advantage - and that tackle is utterly inexcusable and will hugely damage England's preparation given how much has been invested in him.

Pretty dismal shit from England's largely preferred team playing against Wales' reserve team with big injuries during he came. Individuals aside, it's appalling how much of a difference there was between that final little burst and how England played the rest of the match and most of last week. Just too many players going through the motions or not living up to their billing.

I thought Ollie lawrence was ok.

My hail mary hope for anything beyond the 1/4 was Billy V would find one last big vein of form.

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:02 pm My hail mary hope for anything beyond the 1/4 was Billy V would find one last big vein of form.

I suppose the law of averages suggests he's due one at a world cup

English rugby hasn’t seen such a dirge of talent since the 70’s.

sefton wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:19 pm English rugby hasn’t seen such a dirge of talent since the 70’s.

Don’t think things are as bad as the Robbo/Ashton/Johnno eras talent-wise - in theory we have a good number of top-class players and exciting young players, but almost no-one seems to be playing at their best or being effectively used in this team.

Not sure the future looks especially bright though, the domestic game is in utter chaos and is only going to fall further behind France and Ireland with the reduction in the cap. Our junior international sides now look to be firmly behind the top nations, having systematically dismantled the world-leading talent development program we had a decade ago.

Sure I’ll find something better to do than watch the Ireland game next week!

We seemed to be trying stuff at first. Then gave up. Missed the end, quite happily.

Watching the French now and it's gorgeous.

Dupont is just a joy to watch. Their offloads are also often quite far, tougher to do, but gives the receiver more time to react, and more likely to find space than a small tip on that tends to lead to more traffic.

NZ are always going to be a threat the the world cup, but this is surely France's to lose. If we get out of the pool I'll consider it a job well done to be honest.

Raggs wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:19 pm Dupont is just a joy to watch. Their offloads are also often quite far, tougher to do, but gives the receiver more time to react, and more likely to find space than a small tip on that tends to lead to more traffic.

NZ are always going to be a threat the the world cup, but this is surely France's to lose. If we get out of the pool I'll consider it a job well done to be honest.

Get all this talk of talented teams and players off this thread. It has no place here.

sefton wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:19 pm English rugby hasn’t seen such a dirge of talent since the 70’s.

Dirge of talent?

Is this a bordism?

Lobby wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:38 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:36 pm

Not a lot of pace in that team especially the pack but there again I cant see the ball getting wide through the hands anyway so I hope Arundel and Daly are ready to chase box kicks all game? Looks a bit like a wrecking ball strategy for game against Wales - more one out rugby and box kicks?

Er... Lawrence is one of the quicker 12s, Marchant, Daly, Arundell are all very pacy, Earl is one of the quickest 7s around, and JVP is rapid. So there's some pace, just not the majority of the team.

I think we can call the game plan based on Borthwick's preferred tactics, but you wouldn't be able to call it from the team selection, hampered as it is by injury. You absolutely could pick that back row and that back line to play a fast, aggressive style.

I was going to say that, ironically, that's a back line that would be much better suited to playing outside Smith than last week's. But of course, with JvP and Farrell England will just kick and then kick again.

I see that there are still plenty of tickets left for this game and loads available for next week's game against Fiji. Not a surprise really; I wouldn't pay to see this England team plodding through Borthwick's tedious game plan.

AS I said not a lot of pace in that team bar the wingers chasing the box kicks. The likes of Marler, Cole, Vunipola and Stuart are just too slow now for international rugby. Martin struggled yet again against the Welsh 2nd row. They struggle to get up and into defensive line and cover gaps when needed. Whole team is just slow and lethargic and with Farrell at 10 they are just ponderous in the back line and always playing behind the gain line.

Overall a dreadful game where Wales managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory playing the slightly more exciting, sorry less boring one out and box kick rugby.

Taken my brain ages to work out that “dearth” was the correct word there.

Arundell touched the ball twice in the entire match. Probably should have gone looking for for work...

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 8:26 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:38 pm

Er... Lawrence is one of the quicker 12s, Marchant, Daly, Arundell are all very pacy, Earl is one of the quickest 7s around, and JVP is rapid. So there's some pace, just not the majority of the team.

I think we can call the game plan based on Borthwick's preferred tactics, but you wouldn't be able to call it from the team selection, hampered as it is by injury. You absolutely could pick that back row and that back line to play a fast, aggressive style.

I was going to say that, ironically, that's a back line that would be much better suited to playing outside Smith than last week's. But of course, with JvP and Farrell England will just kick and then kick again.

I see that there are still plenty of tickets left for this game and loads available for next week's game against Fiji. Not a surprise really; I wouldn't pay to see this England team plodding through Borthwick's tedious game plan.

AS I said not a lot of pace in that team bar the wingers chasing the box kicks. The likes of Marler, Cole, Vunipola and Stuart are just too slow now for international rugby. Martin struggled yet again against the Welsh 2nd row. They struggle to get up and into defensive line and cover gaps when needed. Whole team is just slow and lethargic and with Farrell at 10 they are just ponderous in the back line and always playing behind the gain line.

Overall a dreadful game where Wales managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory playing the slightly more exciting, sorry less boring one out and box kick rugby.

Wales lost because they kicked ball away against 12 men and a few England players actually rose up to something resembling the level they're capable of in the final 15 minutes to which put them light years ahead of the rest of the dross on the pitch.

It was a shite game

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:26 am Arundell touched the ball twice in the entire match. Probably should have gone looking for for work...

Or opted for Scotland where the 10 is able to pass off his left hand.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:52 am

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:26 am Arundell touched the ball twice in the entire match. Probably should have gone looking for for work...

Or opted for Scotland where the 10 is able to pass off his left hand.

Always weird given Farrell is left handed. You'd almost think it explained some of the bombed chances passing off his right, but then there's the arguably worse failures off the left

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:26 am Arundell touched the ball twice in the entire match. Probably should have gone looking for for work...

This is England. We've had games where the flyhalf barely touched the ball more than that.

When Cokanasiga was in the side they did bring him off his wing to take the ball up, we didn't do that with Arundell. Presumably at test level one gets that refined analysis of big man smash forward in contact good, else kick, else bad, that mere mortals struggle to follow.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 10:23 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:52 am

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:26 am Arundell touched the ball twice in the entire match. Probably should have gone looking for for work...

Or opted for Scotland where the 10 is able to pass off his left hand.

Always weird given Farrell is left handed. You'd almost think it explained some of the bombed chances passing off his right, but then there's the arguably worse failures off the left

Is he really left handed? That is odd. Pretty much any decent pass I've seen him give has gone off his right.

Mahoney wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 8:59 am Taken my brain ages to work out that “dearth” was the correct word there.

A dirge of talent works though as the accompanying soundtrack to England playing would be a dirge.

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 8:26 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:45 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:38 pm

Er... Lawrence is one of the quicker 12s, Marchant, Daly, Arundell are all very pacy, Earl is one of the quickest 7s around, and JVP is rapid. So there's some pace, just not the majority of the team.

I think we can call the game plan based on Borthwick's preferred tactics, but you wouldn't be able to call it from the team selection, hampered as it is by injury. You absolutely could pick that back row and that back line to play a fast, aggressive style.

I was going to say that, ironically, that's a back line that would be much better suited to playing outside Smith than last week's. But of course, with JvP and Farrell England will just kick and then kick again.

I see that there are still plenty of tickets left for this game and loads available for next week's game against Fiji. Not a surprise really; I wouldn't pay to see this England team plodding through Borthwick's tedious game plan.

AS I said not a lot of pace in that team bar the wingers chasing the box kicks. The likes of Marler, Cole, Vunipola and Stuart are just too slow now for international rugby. Martin struggled yet again against the Welsh 2nd row. They struggle to get up and into defensive line and cover gaps when needed. Whole team is just slow and lethargic and with Farrell at 10 they are just ponderous in the back line and always playing behind the gain line.

Overall a dreadful game where Wales managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory playing the slightly more exciting, sorry less boring one out and box kick rugby.

You keep banging on about this, but you're wrong, just as you are about almost everything else about England or the English. A team that includes Earl, Marchant, Daly and Arundell doesn't lack for pace, and is a lot pacier than many England teams of the recent past that have managed to play alot better than the shower that turned out yesterday. Although he's no Tom Croft, Lawes is also not nearly as slow as you try to make out, witness his try-saving tackle against Tonga two years ago.



It wasn't a lack of pace that caused England to keep dropping the ball or to kick it away at every given opportunity, or to play with the kind of tactical nous you'd expect from a bunch of amateurs who'd never seen a rugby ball before. It also wasn't a lack of pace that resulted in Arundell not receiving a pass in over 60 minutes of play.

It was notable that England only started to play with any sort of structure or purpose once Farrell had been sent off and Ford was at 10.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 10:49 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 10:23 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:52 am

Or opted for Scotland where the 10 is able to pass off his left hand.

Always weird given Farrell is left handed. You'd almost think it explained some of the bombed chances passing off his right, but then there's the arguably worse failures off the left

Is he really left handed? That is odd. Pretty much any decent pass I've seen him give has gone off his right.

he writes with his left hand, so I'd guess. maybe he's just an unco ambidextrous sort

You can write with your left hand and still be a stronger passer off your right. I bat and bowl right handed but I write with my left. I am equally shite at passing with both hands, but more comfortably shite off the left. I was better at offloading with my right than my left.

I jump off my left but would write, bat and bowl right handed. Kicking a ball mostly right footed but similar bad off either foot. When playing at Uni I was more comfortable passing off my left, now I rarely even touch a rugby ball I'd find it easier to pass off the right.

Still it feels unusual that players are normally worse going right because they're right handed

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 12:39 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 10:49 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 10:23 am

Always weird given Farrell is left handed. You'd almost think it explained some of the bombed chances passing off his right, but then there's the arguably worse failures off the left

Is he really left handed? That is odd. Pretty much any decent pass I've seen him give has gone off his right.

he writes with his left hand, so I'd guess. maybe he's just an unco ambidextrous sort

It's called cross dominant and is relatively common in several sports as it can be an advantage. It is not the same as ambidextrous which is generally even more of an advantage - and very rare.

Seems several of us are in the same boat.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 1:18 pm You can write with your left hand and still be a stronger passer off your right. I bat and bowl right handed but I write with my left. I am equally shite at passing with both hands, but more comfortably shite off the left. I was better at offloading with my right than my left.

Odd. I’m exactly the same.
Throw right, golf right, write left, kick left.

You're all massive weirdos.

Anyway I reckon we will get out of the group but the media coverage will be all about Farrell missing. We get to the 1/4 and of course Farrell displaces Ford at ten..has a shocking game (which wont be remarked upon in the press) and we get knocked out.

Borthwick holds a press conference blaming the failure on not having Farrell available for the whole campaign.

tc27 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 2:48 pm Anyway I reckon we will get out of the group but the media coverage will be all about Farrell missing. We get to the 1/4 and of course Farrell displaces Ford at ten..has a shocking game (which wont be remarked upon in the press) and we get knocked out.

Borthwick holds a press conference blaming the failure on not having Farrell available for the whole campaign.

I have the exact same belief. Ford will have a blinder as usual, picking lovely passes out etc, and Farrell will come straight back in at 10. I'd not mind quite so much if he came back in at 12, but that won't be the case I fear.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... d-fazball/

England are dour, turgid and have no ambition: welcome to Fazball

This is not meant in a rubbling it in way, I just thought it was quite funny

TedMaul wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 1:40 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 1:18 pm You can write with your left hand and still be a stronger passer off your right. I bat and bowl right handed but I write with my left. I am equally shite at passing with both hands, but more comfortably shite off the left. I was better at offloading with my right than my left.

Odd. I’m exactly the same.
Throw right, golf right, write left, kick left.

My brother is the same. Freak.

My brother is right handed but left footed

Handedness can be driven by eye dominance - I'm generally right-handed, but as I'm left eye-dominant I'm left handed for writing, snooker, rifle shooting (yes, rifle shooting) and anything requiring a particular line-of-sight or are monocular.

It's apparently relatively common. Some not-so-interesting stats on it here:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/medical-education ... ngHand.pdf

inactionman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 10:18 pm Handedness can be driven by eye dominance - I'm generally right-handed, but as I'm left eye-dominant I'm left handed for writing, snooker, rifle shooting (yes, rifle shooting)

Which type?

Lobby wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 11:41 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 8:26 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:45 pm

I was going to say that, ironically, that's a back line that would be much better suited to playing outside Smith than last week's. But of course, with JvP and Farrell England will just kick and then kick again.

I see that there are still plenty of tickets left for this game and loads available for next week's game against Fiji. Not a surprise really; I wouldn't pay to see this England team plodding through Borthwick's tedious game plan.

AS I said not a lot of pace in that team bar the wingers chasing the box kicks. The likes of Marler, Cole, Vunipola and Stuart are just too slow now for international rugby. Martin struggled yet again against the Welsh 2nd row. They struggle to get up and into defensive line and cover gaps when needed. Whole team is just slow and lethargic and with Farrell at 10 they are just ponderous in the back line and always playing behind the gain line.

Overall a dreadful game where Wales managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory playing the slightly more exciting, sorry less boring one out and box kick rugby.

You keep banging on about this, but you're wrong, just as you are about almost everything else about England or the English. A team that includes Earl, Marchant, Daly and Arundell doesn't lack for pace, and is a lot pacier than many England teams of the recent past that have managed to play alot better than the shower that turned out yesterday. Although he's no Tom Croft, Lawes is also not nearly as slow as you try to make out, witness his try-saving tackle against Tonga two years ago.



It wasn't a lack of pace that caused England to keep dropping the ball or to kick it away at every given opportunity, or to play with the kind of tactical nous you'd expect from a bunch of amateurs who'd never seen a rugby ball before. It also wasn't a lack of pace that resulted in Arundell not receiving a pass in over 60 minutes of play.

It was notable that England only started to play with any sort of structure or purpose once Farrell had been sent off and Ford was at 10.

Having guys who can run fast in a straight line is not rugby pace! The point I was making was that the team wasn't going to play at any sort of rugby fast and didn't, it was slow, ponderous and turgid stuff - there was no pace in the team. Arundell touched the ball twice before being subbed, no point having a speedster chasing high balls all game. England need to up the pace of the game by about 100%, move the ball faster from the breakdown and get the ball zipping along the back line. Pace in the team isn't about quick runners it is about players who can play fast mobile rugby and England dont have them in the right positions.

Oh and by the way Lawes clip is two years ago as you say and he is now 34 and has had a serious injury since then! He is still a good player but has slowed considerably.

Oh and I agree that Ford sped the game up once Farrell went off, Farrell is one of the main reasons England played with so little speed, he slows the game down.