NPR

Simian wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:18 pm Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

It’s hard to know what Eddie’s plan was with England for 2023, but it’s hard to see how we’d be in worse shape

Spare a thought for me. Always been club first, so could deal with England being crap. Not test rugby, but win and lose (more often than not), my club played rugby that was fun to watch. Ruck speed, offloads and taking risks were all central to it. It was compelling for me.

This England team are desperate and watching them is a desperate experience. Was never convinced with Borthwick's coronation into the role, but it's been even worse than feared so far. He's such a crushingly conservative coach. Kick first every time because the laptop tells us that's optimum. One out runners because we can't possibly risk getting turned over in the outside channels. Desperately slow ruck speed even when they aren't setting up another box kick.

He's got an endless bloody contract though, so we're stuck with it. Can only hope things evolve in time.

They need to draft Borthwick into the hunt for Madeleine McCann, his ability to find "positives" where nobody else can is a gift they can use.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:06 am The last time an England side truly gave a shit was the Ireland home game when Ewells got a red.

I find this extraordinary. Decades of watching Fra do a Penaud-esque shrug and give up as soon as things got tough whereas Eng were the nemesis in rugby terms for being the opposite.

JM is spot on in picking out Itoje walking around because it epitomises the malaise.

Eng are guaranteed a 1/4 spot in the RWC and given where they are now, Borthwick might as well throw his plan out of the window and just give it a lash. Maybe there is something to the players simply not enjoying their rugby but I don't hold any sympathy for that: if you don't want to play for your country, remove yourself from selection.

One thing that's become more and more apparent over the last few years is that the national side are playing a completely different game of rugby to the majority of the Premiership sides and it doesn't necessarily play into the strengths of the players at our disposal.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:21 am Spare a thought for me. Always been club first, so could deal with England being crap. Not test rugby, but win and lose (more often than not), my club played rugby that was fun to watch. Ruck speed, offloads and taking risks were all central to it. It was compelling for me.

This England team are desperate and watching them is a desperate experience. Was never convinced with Borthwick's coronation into the role, but it's been even worse than feared so far. He's such a crushingly conservative coach. Kick first every time because the laptop tells us that's optimum. One out runners because we can't possibly risk getting turned over in the outside channels. Desperately slow ruck speed even when they aren't setting up another box kick.

He's got an endless bloody contract though, so we're stuck with it. Can only hope things evolve in time.

One thing that was really frustrating me with Wasps before the collapse was that our ability to play attacking rugby had seemingly vanished. Even in the nosedive towards a relegation we evaded by the width of a gnat's ball hair we would be capable of whipping out some impressive tries - something for the fans to enjoy and get behind.

I know for some fans winning is everything and it doesn't matter how you achieve it, but I want play to get excited by while I'm watching. Sport is part of the entertainment industry, not that you'd know it watching England for the last 4 years.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:03 am One thing that's become more and more apparent over the last few years is that the national side are playing a completely different game of rugby to the majority of the Premiership sides and it doesn't necessarily play into the strengths of the players at our disposal.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:21 am Spare a thought for me. Always been club first, so could deal with England being crap. Not test rugby, but win and lose (more often than not), my club played rugby that was fun to watch. Ruck speed, offloads and taking risks were all central to it. It was compelling for me.

This England team are desperate and watching them is a desperate experience. Was never convinced with Borthwick's coronation into the role, but it's been even worse than feared so far. He's such a crushingly conservative coach. Kick first every time because the laptop tells us that's optimum. One out runners because we can't possibly risk getting turned over in the outside channels. Desperately slow ruck speed even when they aren't setting up another box kick.

He's got an endless bloody contract though, so we're stuck with it. Can only hope things evolve in time.

One thing that was really frustrating me with Wasps before the collapse was that our ability to play attacking rugby had seemingly vanished. Even in the nosedive towards a relegation we evaded by the width of a gnat's ball hair we would be capable of whipping out some impressive tries - something for the fans to enjoy and get behind.

I know for some fans winning is everything and it doesn't matter how you achieve it, but I want play to get excited by while I'm watching. Sport is part of the entertainment industry, not that you'd know it watching England for the last 4 years.

I have to admit the Borthwick title win with Tigers was not one where I was interested to make the trip to watch Tigers due to the style of rugby even by Tigers standards being negative. The best moments were usually due to desperation forcing the likes of Ford to play. In Borthwick's defence he did bring through a lot of younger players and Tigers did ditch Tuilagi (who was poor value due to being an expensive wage that rarely played). At the weekend though the parachuting of Tuilagi back in and in a position where he has never really played well at any level just sends the wrong message.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 5:48 am Assuming the citing panel doesn't sh*t the bed again, does this mean Borthwick will bin his only 8 in Vunipola? He offers nothing anyway bar some scrum bulk. For all his shortcomings at intl level, Dombrandt has to better than this?

6-week entry point. Full mitigation available as it's his first ever red card. Coaching intervention available. If upheld I would expect he will be unavailable for Fiji (warm-up) and Argentina (RWC).

If he's only really missing 1 proper game then Borthwick probably doesn't make a squad change and just covers with something like Earl at 8 would be my guess.

I suspect England will get through their group ok and might win 1/4 final game but after that they will struggle.

England have some excellent players available but don't pick them or pick them and then expect them to play a system completely alien to their skill set. They haven't moved on for a few years and haven't adapted to the new laws of the game. Rugby is now much faster and demands a skills set and mobility from all 15 players. Problem for England is they are stuck in a time warp playing 10 man rugby, albeit badly. They have wasted the last couple of years with Jones and now Borthwick and instead of building towards this RWC they have just dug the trench deeper. They have won a few games and have used this to defend their current strategy but ultimately it is short sighted and not getting them anywhere. They could have brought through a load of young players and developed a faster more attacking style of rugby but instead have stuck with the likes of Cole, Marler, Vunipolas, George, Care, Youngs, Farrell, etc. Sure one or two of these probably have a bit of rugby left in them at test level but many don't and it might have been better to blood a raft of new younger players and taken a risk of a few defeats to get them experience at test level.

I suspect Borthwick will not be around for long after the RWC and England will need to appoint someone who is brave enough to take big decisions. Its a big job!

topofthemoon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:37 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 5:48 am Assuming the citing panel doesn't sh*t the bed again, does this mean Borthwick will bin his only 8 in Vunipola? He offers nothing anyway bar some scrum bulk. For all his shortcomings at intl level, Dombrandt has to better than this?

6-week entry point. Full mitigation available as it's his first ever red card. Coaching intervention available. If upheld I would expect he will be unavailable for Fiji (warm-up) and Argentina (RWC).

If he's only really missing 1 proper game then Borthwick probably doesn't make a squad change and just covers with something like Earl at 8 would be my guess.

You are of course making the foolish assumption that his card won't be rescinded due to the Irish player deliberately and maliciously headbutting Billy's shoulder.

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:40 am I suspect England will get through their group ok and might win 1/4 final game but after that they will struggle.

The farcical draw gives a walk into the semis for someone in Pool C or D who can string 2 results together.

Certainly I think England produces players suited to a high tempo, high risk high reward style. It can work at international rugby if you commit to it.

Borthwick is low risk, no reward.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:03 am One thing that's become more and more apparent over the last few years is that the national side are playing a completely different game of rugby to the majority of the Premiership sides and it doesn't necessarily play into the strengths of the players at our disposal.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:21 am Spare a thought for me. Always been club first, so could deal with England being crap. Not test rugby, but win and lose (more often than not), my club played rugby that was fun to watch. Ruck speed, offloads and taking risks were all central to it. It was compelling for me.

This England team are desperate and watching them is a desperate experience. Was never convinced with Borthwick's coronation into the role, but it's been even worse than feared so far. He's such a crushingly conservative coach. Kick first every time because the laptop tells us that's optimum. One out runners because we can't possibly risk getting turned over in the outside channels. Desperately slow ruck speed even when they aren't setting up another box kick.

He's got an endless bloody contract though, so we're stuck with it. Can only hope things evolve in time.

One thing that was really frustrating me with Wasps before the collapse was that our ability to play attacking rugby had seemingly vanished. Even in the nosedive towards a relegation we evaded by the width of a gnat's ball hair we would be capable of whipping out some impressive tries - something for the fans to enjoy and get behind.

I know for some fans winning is everything and it doesn't matter how you achieve it, but I want play to get excited by while I'm watching. Sport is part of the entertainment industry, not that you'd know it watching England for the last 4 years.

Hartley was pretty good value on comms yesterday but in response to a question about England's second half looking brighter with 14 men he doubled down and suggested they don't play at all vs Fiji.

Exact quote was something along the lines of scrum, maul, kick penalties and try to bore the Fijians to death. And the rest of us presumably. Which makes sense in not playing shovelball and eking out a result but really shows where the mindset is.

Granted, very little prep time, it's a RWC etc but I can't see Borthwick and co. throwing a season next year to bed in something new, they'll probably rely on attritional kick cancer till fans boo them off field again. Proper Stone age shite.

Prembore wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:14 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 9:20 pm

Simian wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:18 pm Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

He needed to go, but seeing as we'd contracted him until after the WC then we should have held out until then. There was bound to be a dip, but the dip is made much worse by the fact he new coach can't realistically clear the decks and reset.

I just can't see what Borthwick could achieve - not that I think he'd necessarily be great, but it's a poisoned, cursed, scalding hot syphilitic chalice he's inherited.

I disagree. He had the chance to clear the decks and I think he'd have got some sympathy had he gone for a complete overhaul of personnel and gameplan. He's largely doubled down on both, however, and therefore deserves all the opprobrium heading his way.

He was limited by the EPS arrangements to a limited set of changes, I think it was 5 - I vaguely recall he got dispensation from the clubs for more extensive changes but he couldn't exactly start again.

Even ignoring that, it would be difficult to bring in a load of new players with - in the broader context - not long until a World Cup.

None of this is aying Borthwick is the right man of the job - nothing I've seen yet say he is - but it was always badly timed.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 11:30 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 9:20 pm

Simian wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:18 pm Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

He needed to go, but seeing as we'd contracted him until after the WC then we should have held out until then. There was bound to be a dip, but the dip is made much worse by the fact he new coach can't realistically clear the decks and reset.

I just can't see what Borthwick could achieve - not that I think he'd necessarily be great, but it's a poisoned, cursed, scalding hot syphilitic chalice he's inherited.

Borthwick has the thinnest pedigree for a job like this and his coaching staff have absolutely none. Winning the title doesn't automatically make you the saviour of an ailing international team.

Eddie should have been binned off a year before he was (at the very least, after the 2022 6N fiasco). But it's clear that Borthwick and his coaches are absolutely clueless at how to turn England around. It's absurd that he got the job. Even more absurd that he was given free rein to just hire his Leicester buddies. Richard Wigglesworth, for fucks sake

Yep. All very underwhelming, it would have been useful to have firmly established that 3+ years out from the World Cup

I appreciate we did get to World Cup final on Eddie's watch, and his contract renewal was signed after that and a relatively successful 2020 6N (Well, the first few rounds pre-covid, anyway) so the extension itself wasn't madness. The drop-off after that was pretty severe, and we either needed to act or see it through. We dithered and ended up with Borthwick appointed with the WC almost upon us. Another masterful feat of forward-thinking.

Eddie called it absolutely right when he first took the job in saying he should only do four years, and everything that’s gone wrong stems from not taking him at his word there

I saw a stat on Xhitter that said an England back hasn't scored a try in 5 hours and 28 minutes of play.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:39 pm I saw a stat on Xhitter that said an England back hasn't scored a try in 5 hours and 28 minutes of play.

Is that for actual matches or training?

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:39 pm I saw a stat on Xhitter that said an England back hasn't scored a try in 5 hours and 28 minutes of play.

Italy had similar stats a few years ago when they lost every 6N match for 3 seasons.

notfatcat wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:52 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:39 pm I saw a stat on Xhitter that said an England back hasn't scored a try in 5 hours and 28 minutes of play.

Is that for actual matches or training?

I'm not convinced that Borthwick and co realise you're allowed to actually coach the team before the tournament starts

This about sums it all up.

https://archive.ph/VWNiP

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 2:14 pm This about sums it all up.

https://archive.ph/VWNiP

"The Billy Vunipola sending-off felt as if England were trolling their own fans by saying: you think the Owen Farrell saga was a lot? Watch this!"

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 2:14 pm This about sums it all up.

https://archive.ph/VWNiP

Yup, good piece without much to quibble.

Bucketloads of tickets left for the Fiji match. I know there is a train strike and it's "only" Fiji, but I can't help thinking our style of anti-rugby doesn't help.

Plus the ridiculous prices don't help.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:24 am Bucketloads of tickets left for the Fiji match. I know there is a train strike and it's "only" Fiji, but I can't help thinking our style of anti-rugby doesn't help.

Plus the ridiculous prices don't help.

Only 40,000 sold apparently.

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:33 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:24 am Bucketloads of tickets left for the Fiji match. I know there is a train strike and it's "only" Fiji, but I can't help thinking our style of anti-rugby doesn't help.

Plus the ridiculous prices don't help.

Only 40,000 sold apparently.

80,000 for SA vs NZ, also at Twickenham.

I suppose hitting the RFU in the pocket is the only language they understand.

Why pay to watch us try and kick chase Fiji to death when you could go see two of the best sides in the world actually try and play rugby?

My main hope at the moment is that people voting with their feet will force the RFU's hand. Unfortunately, most of the Council appear to be clad with Rhino hide.

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:33 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:24 am Bucketloads of tickets left for the Fiji match. I know there is a train strike and it's "only" Fiji, but I can't help thinking our style of anti-rugby doesn't help.

Plus the ridiculous prices don't help.

Only 40,000 sold apparently.

I saw they sold 81,000 for the previous Fiji WC warm up.

To be fair though, it is a very different environment now, bad time of year to get people to matches etc. I don't think many of these warm ups have been sell outs.

I'd suggest handing out free tickets to schoolkids, but given the way we're playing that could backfire horribly and we could put them all off for life.

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 2:00 pm

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:33 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:24 am Bucketloads of tickets left for the Fiji match. I know there is a train strike and it's "only" Fiji, but I can't help thinking our style of anti-rugby doesn't help.

Plus the ridiculous prices don't help.

Only 40,000 sold apparently.

I saw they sold 81,000 for the previous Fiji WC warm up.

To be fair though, it is a very different environment now, bad time of year to get people to matches etc. I don't think many of these warm ups have been sell outs.

I'm seeing top adult price of £75 for Cat 1 tickets and £35 for Cat 4 with Junior tickets all £10 on RFU ticket portal.
Middle of the holiday season, Bank Holiday Weekend etc, etc. My son estimated 70K for the Welsh match at Twickenham.
People will start voting with their feet if the product isn't good enough!!!

I wonder whether it'll be even less on the day due to the train strike and people not having realised either that it's happening or how disrupted their particular route will be.

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 2:06 pm I'd suggest handing out free tickets to schoolkids, but given the way we're playing that could backfire horribly and we could put them all off for life.

Although my son didn't like Mini rugby, he came and sat with me for some of the match last weekend.

He didn't want to watch the Women's World Cup final, though, because, "That was rugby, this is football."

His main loves remain Transformers and dinosaurs, however. When I dug my G1 Dinobot, Slag, out of the box of toys in my parents' attic and gave it to him, his little mind was blown.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 2:38 pm I wonder whether it'll be even less on the day due to the train strike and people not having realised either that it's happening or how disrupted their particular route will be.

If England were playing well people would move heaven and earth to get there (bitching about it as they did).

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 2:35 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 2:00 pm

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:33 pm

Only 40,000 sold apparently.

I saw they sold 81,000 for the previous Fiji WC warm up.

To be fair though, it is a very different environment now, bad time of year to get people to matches etc. I don't think many of these warm ups have been sell outs.

I'm seeing top adult price of £75 for Cat 1 tickets and £35 for Cat 4 with Junior tickets all £10 on RFU ticket portal.
Middle of the holiday season, Bank Holiday Weekend etc, etc. My son estimated 70K for the Welsh match at Twickenham.
People will start voting with their feet if the product isn't good enough!!!

Not that it’s any bad thing in the round but the Italy 6N game only sold out because they gave out tickets to school parties, and there were tickets to be had at face value in the week for both the Scotland and France games, all of which is unprecedented in the recent past. The voting with feet has already happened.

Fwiw Twickenham is probably the worst value day out in English sport, only a matter of time until people cottoned on.

I think the 5.30 kick offs are killing it, too.

For a 3.00 kick off, you can get some lunch and be away from the ground for either drinks or dinner or continuing into London at a reasonable time, or for those who want to head home, even if you didn't get properly away until 6.30 even a three hour journey gets you home before 10.00.

At 5.30, it kicks everything back a hell of a time and makes it an absolute chore both arriving and eventually getting home.

It's also an absolute pain in the arse for TV if you have a young family, we usually eat about 6 - 6.30 since the kids are used to that, so it's slap bang in the middle of meal time.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:06 pmNot that it’s any bad thing in the round but the Italy 6N game only sold out because they gave out tickets to school parties, and there were tickets to be had at face value in the week for both the Scotland and France games, all of which is unprecedented in the recent past. The voting with feet has already happened.

Fwiw Twickenham is probably the worst value day out in English sport, only a matter of time until people cottoned on.

I’ll raise you Silverstone! But yes, feel bad for anyone who pays top dollar to see this shower

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:15 pm I think the 5.30 kick offs are killing it, too.

For a 3.00 kick off, you can get some lunch and be away from the ground for either drinks or dinner or continuing into London at a reasonable time, or for those who want to head home, even if you didn't get properly away until 6.30 even a three hour journey gets you home before 10.00.

At 5.30, it kicks everything back a hell of a time and makes it an absolute chore both arriving and eventually getting home.

It's also an absolute pain in the arse for TV if you have a young family, we usually eat about 6 - 6.30 since the kids are used to that, so it's slap bang in the middle of meal time.

Fiji game kicks off at 3.15pm!

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:15 pm I think the 5.30 kick offs are killing it, too.

For a 3.00 kick off, you can get some lunch and be away from the ground for either drinks or dinner or continuing into London at a reasonable time, or for those who want to head home, even if you didn't get properly away until 6.30 even a three hour journey gets you home before 10.00.

At 5.30, it kicks everything back a hell of a time and makes it an absolute chore both arriving and eventually getting home.

It's also an absolute pain in the arse for TV if you have a young family, we usually eat about 6 - 6.30 since the kids are used to that, so it's slap bang in the middle of meal time.

Yep. Even without attending the game 5:30 is an absolute pain. Every game England play at the moment seems to be either 4.45 during the 6N and 5:30 with these friendlies up to now. Complete pain in the hole with young kids

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:20 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:15 pm I think the 5.30 kick offs are killing it, too.

For a 3.00 kick off, you can get some lunch and be away from the ground for either drinks or dinner or continuing into London at a reasonable time, or for those who want to head home, even if you didn't get properly away until 6.30 even a three hour journey gets you home before 10.00.

At 5.30, it kicks everything back a hell of a time and makes it an absolute chore both arriving and eventually getting home.

It's also an absolute pain in the arse for TV if you have a young family, we usually eat about 6 - 6.30 since the kids are used to that, so it's slap bang in the middle of meal time.

Yep. Even without attending the game 5:30 is an absolute pain. Every game England play at the moment seems to be either 4.45 during the 6N and 5:30 with these friendlies up to now. Complete pain in the hole with young kids

I used to get to at least one England game every year and take my family with me - but, the way England play, I just can't justify the cost, or the hassle, of going. It'd take a radical change in prices/performance, for me start forking out again - even though I can afford it. I can barely face watching the games on TV, they are so dire. I make do with going to the Quins games at Twickers - which is a good day out with my troupe - but even that is starting to get expensive - the prices have been creeping up each season.

RFU have just released the pricing and ticket allocations to clubs today (oh and the bastards have given us just 4 weeks to mail out our membership and order our allocation)
Wales Sat 10th Feb KO 4:45
Ireland Sat 9th March KO 4:45
Tickets £80, £112, £130, £146, £163. U15 concession £30
Bet I sell out our Premium allocation twice over!!!!