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Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 6:03 pm
by Joost
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:40 pm
Or Semesa Rokoduguni?
Roko was hardly big or lumbering and had decent hands, he had some deficiencies (not the smartest defender, no boot to speak of) but deserved the international caps he got and actually looked like an international wing when he played (unlike Banners or Fiji Joe).
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:07 pm
by Punter15
inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 4:32 pm
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 4:00 pm
It would appear that if Daly is also injured, Big Lumbering Joe is the next can off the rank. FFS.
I've said this before, but he's not even the best English-qualified wing at Bath.
But he is big and strong.
(To be fair, what he's good at he's very good at, but almost to R&C's point there are glaring weaknesses)
I don’t think that there are many in the stands that rate him. Lazy lump who has gotten by on also being a big lump. He’s even worse for England.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:18 pm
by Rhubarb & Custard
inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:20 pm
If your point - as I understood it - was that skills need to work in practice, under pressure, it would seem you're contradicting yourself a bit here here?
Anyway, I agree that skills will generally be refined to meet what is required in terms of maximising native strengths within a game plan, recognising there are only so many hours in the day, but you'd hope most pros would be competent in the core skills of their position.
It's also the case that sometimes a standout skill in one area will be seen by coaching staff as compensating for deficiencies in other areas. I recall Bath signed Matawalu to play as Scrum Half under Mike Ford's short-lived but glorious diamond attack, despite him being seemingly almost unable to pass off his left hand. I'm not sure I agreed with it, but it was great fun for a while.
As an aside, Eastmond was utterly electric for a few seasons at Bath, alongside JJ and Ford, but he seemed to lose a bit of career direction (read: he was promised the Earth at Bath by Ford and didn't really survive Ford's exit) rather than necessarily be cut.
If you're not contradicting yourself three times before breakfast you're simply not trying.
And yes skills do need to be practised, but you are working off a base for each player and Roberts was a lot better than he ever showed himself to be. That has to be partly on Roberts, but the coaching culture is very conservative as a rule in the UK.
Was the diamond Ford's? I remember it perhaps quite incorrectly as a Meehan thing, and there's an interesting name who one might think has a lot to offer, but partly he had some man management issues and partly he just seems a bad cultural fit (sadly)
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:22 pm
by Raggs
inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:57 pm
Still, at least he can laugh at himself
Love the reply by the RFU ref development on that, saying he became a ref because he couldn't catch!
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:44 pm
by SaintK
Joe Heyes called up[ as cover for Sinckler who has a "chest injury"!!!
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:01 pm
by Oxbow
I reckon the lads have started deliberately injuring each other to get out of this shitshow, it'll be like that scene from Escape To Victory in the dressing room.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:04 pm
by Raggs
SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:44 pm
Joe Heyes called up[ as cover for Sinckler who has a "chest injury"!!!
Holy hell, we're collapsing like flies. I was vaguely hoping we might be able to scratch through to the semis, given our good fortune in pools, but right now I don't think we'll even make that.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:08 pm
by Margin__Walker
Good job we've got that crack S&C team in from Leicester ensuring that we're relentless on the pitch and not breaking down with injury in training.
No, wait.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:15 pm
by inactionman
He can't break even more than Eddie did, can he?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:16 pm
by Margin__Walker
inactionman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:15 pm
He can't break even more than Eddie did, can he?
They're giving it a bloody good go
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:28 pm
by JM2K6
I for one am hugely surprised that an entire team of people who are in varying ways utterly inexperienced for their roles at this level are making an absolute pigs ear of an already shit situation.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:45 pm
by Stranger
The worry is that Aled Waters is the only one with the appropriate experience
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:45 pm
by petej
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:04 pm
inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:58 pm
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:56 pm
Actually Roberts didn't have terrible hands, but he was certainly used as a bosh merchant, and it showed at times he couldn't pair making a good decision and executing it under pressure, both how little was expected/encouraged of him and the lack of actual practice.
He had terrible hands.
He certainly had plenty of terrible outcomes. But I've seen him up close in training, and he was actually pretty decent, genuinely he looked quite good (and I've seen bad), but at club and country nobody looked to build on that, it just wasn't part of the thinking. And players can tend to be what you tell them to be, partly we can tend to fall in line, partly they want to work on what's getting them selected and they don't chance things the coach isn't looking for if that puts selection at risk
In England we want to line players up, in attack and defence, we want the high confrontational square on contacts, we're not that interested in space and evasion, nor speed. And Wales has some similar lack of thinking to us in this. And we typically give scant regards to players like Eastmond, like Smith, and even if we pick them we don't consider what might allow them to work better. Christ, England weren't even interested in Wade, and he scared the daylights out of anyone who marked him, but, he was no Banahan
The lack of interest in a genuine special talent like wade was always frustrating. The massive + in attack was less important than a minor - negative in defence.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:36 pm
by JM2K6
It wasn't minor. He was an absolute bomb scare in defence and never seemed to improve. You can't carry a player like that. No matter how good they might be with ball in hand.
All it would've taken was some commitment to doing the basics and following a system properly but by the end I only have to assume he didn't give a shit
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:44 pm
by Kawazaki
Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:04 pm
SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:44 pm
Joe Heyes called up[ as cover for Sinckler who has a "chest injury"!!!
Holy hell, we're collapsing like flies. I was vaguely hoping we might be able to scratch through to the semis, given our good fortune in pools, but right now I don't think we'll even make that.
Sinckler chest injury - pea heart.
He's no great loss at all - he's even lazier than Marler.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:45 am
by Ovals
Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:08 pm
Good job we've got that crack S&C team in from Leicester ensuring that we're relentless on the pitch and not breaking down with injury in training.
No, wait.
https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://ww ... ury-squad/
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:01 pm
by Margin__Walker
Yep, tapering is the word on the street. Let's see.
Thankfully their group is very forgiving
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:15 pm
by SaintK
Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:01 pm
Yep, tapering is the word on the street. Let's see.
Thankfully their group is very forgiving
We'll be able to tell by how many Fiji put on us later
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:13 pm
by Hal Jordan
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:44 pm
Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:04 pm
SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:44 pm
Joe Heyes called up[ as cover for Sinckler who has a "chest injury"!!!
Holy hell, we're collapsing like flies. I was vaguely hoping we might be able to scratch through to the semis, given our good fortune in pools, but right now I don't think we'll even make that.
Sinckler chest injury - pea heart.
He's no great loss at all - he's even lazier than Marler.
As they say of NFL players who win a massive contract and then phone it in, he got paid.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:26 pm
by Oxbow
We already look far better with Mitchell and Ford we do with Youngs and Farrell, who'd have thunk it.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:41 pm
by sefton
25 mins in with 15 on the pitch, that’s a moral win in my book.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:50 pm
by Hal Jordan
Forward, but we got sliced open there, badly.
Edit: Jesus, Cole was barely moving in that "defence".
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:08 pm
by Kawazaki
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:26 pm
We already look far better with Mitchell and Ford we do with Youngs and Farrell, who'd have thunk it.
And then England looked shite again.
Oh sorry, I'm sure you were just about to post this.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:17 pm
by Oxbow
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:08 pm
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:26 pm
We already look far better with Mitchell and Ford we do with Youngs and Farrell, who'd have thunk it.
And then England looked shite again.
Oh sorry, I'm sure you were just about to post this.
It then started pissing it down which may have had something to do with it, but after the first 15 minutes it wasn't great. Still better than having Youngs out there though. I know there's absolutely no point arguing with you about Farrell, so, I won't.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:27 pm
by Kawazaki
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:17 pm
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:08 pm
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:26 pm
We already look far better with Mitchell and Ford we do with Youngs and Farrell, who'd have thunk it.
And then England looked shite again.
Oh sorry, I'm sure you were just about to post this.
It then started pissing it down which may have had something to do with it, but after the first 15 minutes it wasn't great. Still better than having Youngs out there though. I know there's absolutely no point arguing with you about Farrell, so, I won't.
England are shite with Smith at 10 - it's Farrel's fault
England are shite with Ford at 10 - it's Farrel's fault
England are shite when Farrell isn't playing - it's Farrel's fault
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:31 pm
by Raggs
Christ that was a depressing run of phases 5m out and end up 10m back and losing it.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:38 pm
by sefton
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:27 pm
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:17 pm
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:08 pm
And then England looked shite again.
Oh sorry, I'm sure you were just about to post this.
It then started pissing it down which may have had something to do with it, but after the first 15 minutes it wasn't great. Still better than having Youngs out there though. I know there's absolutely no point arguing with you about Farrell, so, I won't.
England are shite with Smith at 10 - it's Farrel's fault
England are shite with Ford at 10 - it's Farrel's fault
England are shite when Farrell isn't playing - it's Farrel's fault
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:03 pm
by sefton
Marler, Cole, Care and May. We might as well get Borthwick on.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:08 pm
by JM2K6
Remarkable stuff. Well done Borthwick, no one could have predicted just how much impact you'd have on this team. History making stuff. Unforgettable.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:08 pm
by sockwithaticket
Are we worse than the '05 -'11 sides yet?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:09 pm
by tc27
Gotta be the worst England RWC squad of the pro era.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:11 pm
by Oxbow
I don't think the players are the worst, but the coaching...
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:12 pm
by el capitan
You could give it chapter and verse about many many many many things, and some of the problems we face go beyond the national side, but all I am going to say is that when literally every single player and every facet and thing you do is utterly shit, you can only look at the coaching team.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:12 pm
by sefton
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:08 pm
Are we worse than the '05 -'11 sides yet?
By a country mile.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:13 pm
by tc27
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:11 pm
I don't think the players are the worst, but the coaching...
Agree..worst in terms of the overall factors.
There are some right donkeys in this team but frustratingly also some quality players
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:17 pm
by sefton
I feel for Lawes.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:17 pm
by Ovals
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:11 pm
I don't think the players are the worst, but the coaching...
The coaches didn't make Care drop the ball in his own 22 which lead to their last try.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:17 pm
by Hal Jordan
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:08 pm
Are we worse than the '05 -'11 sides yet?
They at least fronted up in the forwards and we reached the final in 2007.
This lot are 1970s bad.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:18 pm
by Hal Jordan
Ovals wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:17 pm
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:11 pm
I don't think the players are the worst, but the coaching...
The coaches didn't make Care drop the ball in his own 22 which lead to their last try.
Why the fuck he was catching it in the first place is symptomatic of the rot throughout the team.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:21 pm
by Oxbow
Ovals wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:17 pm
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:11 pm
I don't think the players are the worst, but the coaching...
The coaches didn't make Care drop the ball in his own 22 which lead to their last try.
With this lot I wouldn't be surprised if they did.