The Official English Rugby Thread

[sefton]

Hartley is fucking delusional.

[Joost]

Are we worse than the '05 -'11 sides yet?

By a country mile.

They could defend and try and grind out a win at least and you never saw those teams lose (comfortably as well) to one of the PI nations.

Make no mistake, this is the most humiliating defeat in England rugby history and we can add it to the record 6N and home defeat against France from earlier this year - a group stage RWC exit seems entirely possible at this point!

[inactionman]

Are we worse than the '05 -'11 sides yet?

By a country mile.

They could defend and try and grind out a win at least and you never saw those teams lose (comfortably as well) to one of the PI nations.

Make no mistake, this is the most humiliating defeat in England rugby history and we can add it to the record 6N and home defeat against France from earlier this year - a group stage RWC exit seems entirely possible at this point!

At this point, going out in the group stages would almost be blessed relief.

It's just constant lack of basic skills, and god alone knows where our defensive intensity went. I think I've seen more missed tackles this year than in the preceding decade.

[Hal Jordan]

22 tries against us in 5 games. Sinfield is a League legend but a Union nobody, yet gets a top coaching job.

[tc27]

Lets be honest the empty top tier is probably whats really bothering the suits

[sockwithaticket]

Are we worse than the '05 -'11 sides yet?

By a country mile.

They could defend and try and grind out a win at least and you never saw those teams lose (comfortably as well) to one of the PI nations.

Make no mistake, this is the most humiliating defeat in England rugby history and we can add it to the record 6N and home defeat against France from earlier this year - a group stage RWC exit seems entirely possible at this point!

Fiji of the present day are a far, far stronger proposition than the teams of our previous banter era would have faced.

[petej]

I don't think the players are the worst, but the coaching...

Agree..worst in terms of the overall factors.

There are some right donkeys in this team but frustratingly also some quality players

The problem is we are now 3+ years into selecting on reputation. It is like the pissing around with Marchant. I genuinely can't remember him having a bad game for England but he got dropped at one stage regardless, where as Tuilagi gets parachuted in regardless. Borthwick's Tigers success might have been more of a team effort particularly on the selection front where players who were bought in or moved on might not have had much to do with Borthwick. It is an absolute mess.

Who the hell are the leaders amongst the players? Farrell, Genge, Lawes? If the game plan is shite who is going to challenge it? The captain is a known thick coaches pet and pretty sure Jones spent years booting anyone who challenged him. We are back at the point where decent players look awful and players when selected slowly lose confidence and belief.

[Cartman]

Whats weird is they started brightly and then slowly turned to shit.
Whats going on with them?

[Ovals]

I reckon we'll now lose Marler for a lengthy ban - bound to be cited for that Head on tackle. No great loss though.

[JM2K6]

Whats weird is they started brightly and then slowly turned to shit.
Whats going on with them?

As soon as it started raining they were incapable of coping, and Fiji quickly worked out how to exploit Manu in attack and defence. Steward had an absolute mare but everyone spent a good twenty minutes dropping the ball again.

[Cartman]

Whats weird is they started brightly and then slowly turned to shit.
Whats going on with them?

As soon as it started raining they were incapable of coping, and Fiji quickly worked out how to exploit Manu in attack and defence. Steward had an absolute mare but everyone spent a good twenty minutes dropping the ball again.

Yeah terrible tactics considering Fiji had so much trouble with the high ball even from kick offs. Today was a good day to kick the leather off the ball ironically. So they dediced not to after weeks of doing just that. All at sea it seems.

[el capitan]

Whilst wondering at what point they'd be tempted to pull the plug, I had a look and Scabbers is actually on a five year contract

You'd hope there are (under)performance-related break clauses in there, but these are the RFU suits we're talking about....

[Paddington Bear]

22 tries against us in 5 games. Sinfield is a League legend but a Union nobody, yet gets a top coaching job.

The system clearly doesn’t work, there’s acres of space on the wings every time a team string a couple of passes together.

I only caught 10/15 mins on Saturday - can I bring myself to watch the highlights?

[JM2K6]

22 tries against us in 5 games. Sinfield is a League legend but a Union nobody, yet gets a top coaching job.

The system clearly doesn’t work, there’s acres of space on the wings every time a team string a couple of passes together.

I only caught 10/15 mins on Saturday - can I bring myself to watch the highlights?

If you don't watch the full thing you won't have enough ammunition the next time I claim I can't remember Ford repeatedly making mistakes that really cost us

[Paddington Bear]

22 tries against us in 5 games. Sinfield is a League legend but a Union nobody, yet gets a top coaching job.

The system clearly doesn’t work, there’s acres of space on the wings every time a team string a couple of passes together.

I only caught 10/15 mins on Saturday - can I bring myself to watch the highlights?

If you don't watch the full thing you won't have enough ammunition the next time I claim I can't remember Ford repeatedly making mistakes that really cost us

[JM2K6]

The system clearly doesn’t work, there’s acres of space on the wings every time a team string a couple of passes together.

I only caught 10/15 mins on Saturday - can I bring myself to watch the highlights?

If you don't watch the full thing you won't have enough ammunition the next time I claim I can't remember Ford repeatedly making mistakes that really cost us

Bad kicks straight into players

Missed touch on clearances that ended in tries

Did some good stuff but it was the worst I'd seen him play in a long time, some real fuckups in there.

Honestly the game is worth a watch for the novelty value of Fiji being clearer headed and more organised, the hilarity of the rain causing everyone to lose their minds, and to be filled with a burning desire to never see Ben Earl moved away from 7 ever again

[Hal Jordan]

Earl and Willis were competely anonymous throughout.

[Lobby]

If you don't watch the full thing you won't have enough ammunition the next time I claim I can't remember Ford repeatedly making mistakes that really cost us

Bad kicks straight into players

Missed touch on clearances that ended in tries

Did some good stuff but it was the worst I'd seen him play in a long time, some real fuckups in there.

Honestly the game is worth a watch for the novelty value of Fiji being clearer headed and more organised, the hilarity of the rain causing everyone to lose their minds, and to be filled with a burning desire to never see Ben Earl moved away from 7 ever again

I see England and Ford have now dropped the pretence that things are going well in training but not happening on the field.

"George Ford, meanwhile, has revealed that England are not even up to scratch in training as they seek to make the major improvements needed before locking horns with Argentina. “There’s an urgency that we need to fix it and get better,” Ford said.

We’ll be honest and upfront about it because it’s costing us at the moment. The way you do that is to be more consistent in training. We’re clearly not consistent in training, there are probably too many errors in training and we’re probably playing the way we train at the minute, which is not good enough obviously.”

So everything about Borthwick's England is shit. Training shit, performance shit, discipline shit, defence super double shit, results shit.

[Hal Jordan]

I didn't think.our discipline was that bad against Fiji, I can't remember any obvious numbskull penalties.

What was depressing was the compete failure to do anything with the man advantage during the yellow card period.

[JM2K6]

I didn't think.our discipline was that bad against Fiji, I can't remember any obvious numbskull penalties.

What was depressing was the compete failure to do anything with the man advantage during the yellow card period.

There were a couple of very dumb pens, and Marler could easily have seen red. But you're right, it wasn't a core problem. We didn't hold on to the ball for long enough or defend well enough for there to be enough phases for dumb penalties.

[Raggs]

Earl and Willis were competely anonymous throughout.

They really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.

Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.

EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.

[Ovals]

Earl and Willis were competely anonymous throughout.

Yep - can't understand how two players, as good as they are, could have such little influence on the game - it's perplexing.

[dpedin]

Earl and Willis were competely anonymous throughout.

They really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.

Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.

EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.

For info - Bill Mata carries 19 times on Saturday and made 61 metres, his opposite number, Ben Earls made 5 carries for 16. Chessum and Cole each made ONE carry for 1 metre and made ONE tackle each. Not sure Earls made a decent number of carries? Big Bill is a beast of a carrier and will do it all day but Earls carry and yardage count isn't very impressive.

I agree about the ruck speed issue but I am not sure anyone would know what to do with quick ball anyway.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

They're not a side looking to attack. As Topsy noted, that massive blindside we had off a scrum when Mitchell still went open, that is a big problem, that's just a side not confident to try even basic things, players are hoping to tick boxes and retain selection, even Ford was kicking and kicking as part of Project Kick 1 Km, or just Project K1K, or even just K1K. Bortwhwick can claim it's K1K to win, but if we continue to look this rubbish he's not going to convince many

Maybe something can yet spark a semblance of confidence, find the players wanting the ball, wanting to try something and that in turn brings the handling errors down to something one can work with.

[JM2K6]

Earl and Willis were competely anonymous throughout.

They really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.

Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.

EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.

Lots of tackles made by the pair of them. There were no big hits. They largely lost the breakdown battle. There was one carry of note from the pair of them in the entire game. Willis is one of the best jackals in the game. I genuinely would struggle to point to a single time I realised he was involved, except when he was penalised. These are very, very good players playing at 50% of their ability.

It's astonishing that England have sunk this low. It's not a question of personnel. They even got worse after half time, because listening to Boring Steve and his merry troupe of out of their depth mates can't exactly help. And thanks to years of Eddie and co, we've a bunch of players with a bunker mentality who believe as long as they all stick together and they all stick to the game plan, it'll all come good.

[JM2K6]

Earl and Willis were competely anonymous throughout.

They really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.

Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.

EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.

For info - Bill Mata carries 19 times on Saturday and made 61 metres, his opposite number, Ben Earls made 5 carries for 16. Chessum and Cole each made ONE carry for 1 metre and made ONE tackle each. Not sure Earls made a decent number of carries? Big Bill is a beast of a carrier and will do it all day but Earls carry and yardage count isn't very impressive.

I agree about the ruck speed issue but I am not sure anyone would know what to do with quick ball anyway.

Earl

[sockwithaticket]

Earl.

There's no s on the end. Please can we not have another Cole/Coles situation.

[SaintK]

Earl and Willis were competely anonymous throughout.

They really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.

Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.

EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.

For info - Bill Mata carries 19 times on Saturday and made 61 metres, his opposite number, Ben Earls made 5 carries for 16. Chessum and Cole each made ONE carry for 1 metre and made ONE tackle each. Not sure Earls made a decent number of carries? Big Bill is a beast of a carrier and will do it all day but Earls carry and yardage count isn't very impressive.

I agree about the ruck speed issue but I am not sure anyone would know what to do with quick ball anyway.

You mentioned most of that on the other thread, thanks.

[dpedin]

Earl.

There's no s on the end. Please can we not have another Cole/Coles situation.

Pedants!

[dpedin]

They really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.

Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.

EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.

For info - Bill Mata carries 19 times on Saturday and made 61 metres, his opposite number, Ben Earls made 5 carries for 16. Chessum and Cole each made ONE carry for 1 metre and made ONE tackle each. Not sure Earls made a decent number of carries? Big Bill is a beast of a carrier and will do it all day but Earls carry and yardage count isn't very impressive.

I agree about the ruck speed issue but I am not sure anyone would know what to do with quick ball anyway.

You mentioned most of that on the other thread, thanks.

I know but it appeared Raggs hadn't seen it so I thought it was worth repeating to correct his misapprehension that Earl (with no s) made a decent number of carries - he hadn't!

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I know but it appeared Raggs hadn't seen it so I thought it was worth repeating to correct his misapprehension that Earl (with no s) made a decent number of carries - he hadn't!

There is he doesn't weigh 120kg, so England, being a cunning lot, send him to stand on the wing to use his breakdown skills to support or his pace to carry on the end of our sweeping wide plays.

[el capitan]

When Ford, the epitome of a teachers pet, is coming out and saying the training is shit etc then it suggests his key lieutenants are losing faith also.

It's not too late to be rid of this spoofer.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I didn't hear him as saying that, I took it as communication and decision making need to improve across the group around what they're trying to do, and the error rates in execution are too high.

and errors are a pain in the arse as it so slows the amount of work you can get through. and people can tend to drop intensity levels if they're expecting a mistake inside/earlier in the play

[ASMO]

I didn't hear him as saying that, I took it as communication and decision making need to improve across the group around what they're trying to do, and the error rates in execution are too high.

and errors are a pain in the arse as it so slows the amount of work you can get through. and people can tend to drop intensity levels if they're expecting a mistake inside/earlier in the play

He did say things were not working as they wanted in training, making too many errors, so its more of a sideways swipe at Scab and his regime

[Sandstorm]

Sideways? It’s a straight jab onto his scabby snout!!

[Ovals]

Sideways? It’s a straight jab onto his scabby snout!!

I took it more as a admission that the players just aren't executing plans and practice drills well, rather than a swipe at the coaches.

[Sandstorm]

Sideways? It’s a straight jab onto his scabby snout!!

I took it more as a admission that the players just aren't executing plans and practice drills well, rather than a swipe at the coaches.

Seriously? They’re pros. They know how to drill.

The plan(s) are what he’s rubbishing in my opinion. England are the Boks under Heyneke Meyer: one plan on Wednesday, then they’re fucked when something else is required on Saturday.

[Raggs]

Earl and Willis can only make as many carries as are available to the team. If they've both made their fair share of more, it's hardly fair to call them anonymous.

We're playing like shit in general, but I see no reason to call out two players who really aren't at the bottom of the pile when it comes to being the worst on display.

[JM2K6]

Again, Earl had made two for zero metres after an hour. There's no excusing that from an 8. And neither of them got on top of Fiji at the breakdown which is baffling considering their talents in that area.

They are not being blamed for the defeat - and the more we argue about them the more it feels like we are - just being used as examples of how badly the entire setup is going right now.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Earl and Willis can only make as many carries as are available to the team. If they've both made their fair share of more, it's hardly fair to call them anonymous.

We're playing like shit in general, but I see no reason to call out two players who really aren't at the bottom of the pile when it comes to being the worst on display.

And they're both still finding their feet at test level.

Not sure either has done enough to advance a claim above Ludlam and Curry should he return. So it's one of the two and maybe only one on the bench if we're sticking with a lock at 6.

'tis a fair point we don't offer them a lot of carries, partly we make too many handling errors, partly we didn't use Earl as the classic 8 returning kicks, we sent him wide in open play (arguably just to chase kicks), we don't run from the base off scrum and we use Tuilagi off the lineout.

Interesting game for Willis, not sure he can possibly have tried to attack many rucks where his side are losing contact so badly, something new to think about however and hopefully that proves useful