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They could defend and try and grind out a win at least and you never saw those teams lose (comfortably as well) to one of the PI nations.
At this point, going out in the group stages would almost be blessed relief.Joost wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:26 pmThey could defend and try and grind out a win at least and you never saw those teams lose (comfortably as well) to one of the PI nations.
Make no mistake, this is the most humiliating defeat in England rugby history and we can add it to the record 6N and home defeat against France from earlier this year - a group stage RWC exit seems entirely possible at this point!
Fiji of the present day are a far, far stronger proposition than the teams of our previous banter era would have faced.Joost wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:26 pmThey could defend and try and grind out a win at least and you never saw those teams lose (comfortably as well) to one of the PI nations.
Make no mistake, this is the most humiliating defeat in England rugby history and we can add it to the record 6N and home defeat against France from earlier this year - a group stage RWC exit seems entirely possible at this point!
The problem is we are now 3+ years into selecting on reputation. It is like the pissing around with Marchant. I genuinely can't remember him having a bad game for England but he got dropped at one stage regardless, where as Tuilagi gets parachuted in regardless. Borthwick's Tigers success might have been more of a team effort particularly on the selection front where players who were bought in or moved on might not have had much to do with Borthwick. It is an absolute mess.
As soon as it started raining they were incapable of coping, and Fiji quickly worked out how to exploit Manu in attack and defence. Steward had an absolute mare but everyone spent a good twenty minutes dropping the ball again.Cartman wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:30 pm Whats weird is they started brightly and then slowly turned to shit.
Whats going on with them?
Yeah terrible tactics considering Fiji had so much trouble with the high ball even from kick offs. Today was a good day to kick the leather off the ball ironically. So they dediced not to after weeks of doing just that. All at sea it seems.JM2K6 wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:34 pmAs soon as it started raining they were incapable of coping, and Fiji quickly worked out how to exploit Manu in attack and defence. Steward had an absolute mare but everyone spent a good twenty minutes dropping the ball again.Cartman wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:30 pm Whats weird is they started brightly and then slowly turned to shit.
Whats going on with them?
The system clearly doesn’t work, there’s acres of space on the wings every time a team string a couple of passes together.Hal Jordan wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:30 pm 22 tries against us in 5 games. Sinfield is a League legend but a Union nobody, yet gets a top coaching job.
If you don't watch the full thing you won't have enough ammunition the next time I claim I can't remember Ford repeatedly making mistakes that really cost usPaddington Bear wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 9:58 amThe system clearly doesn’t work, there’s acres of space on the wings every time a team string a couple of passes together.Hal Jordan wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:30 pm 22 tries against us in 5 games. Sinfield is a League legend but a Union nobody, yet gets a top coaching job.
I only caught 10/15 mins on Saturday - can I bring myself to watch the highlights?
JM2K6 wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:18 amIf you don't watch the full thing you won't have enough ammunition the next time I claim I can't remember Ford repeatedly making mistakes that really cost usPaddington Bear wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 9:58 amThe system clearly doesn’t work, there’s acres of space on the wings every time a team string a couple of passes together.Hal Jordan wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:30 pm 22 tries against us in 5 games. Sinfield is a League legend but a Union nobody, yet gets a top coaching job.
I only caught 10/15 mins on Saturday - can I bring myself to watch the highlights?
Bad kicks straight into playersPaddington Bear wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:54 amJM2K6 wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:18 amIf you don't watch the full thing you won't have enough ammunition the next time I claim I can't remember Ford repeatedly making mistakes that really cost usPaddington Bear wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 9:58 am
The system clearly doesn’t work, there’s acres of space on the wings every time a team string a couple of passes together.
I only caught 10/15 mins on Saturday - can I bring myself to watch the highlights?
I see England and Ford have now dropped the pretence that things are going well in training but not happening on the field.JM2K6 wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:05 amBad kicks straight into playersPaddington Bear wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:54 amJM2K6 wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:18 am
If you don't watch the full thing you won't have enough ammunition the next time I claim I can't remember Ford repeatedly making mistakes that really cost us
Missed touch on clearances that ended in tries
Did some good stuff but it was the worst I'd seen him play in a long time, some real fuckups in there.
Honestly the game is worth a watch for the novelty value of Fiji being clearer headed and more organised, the hilarity of the rain causing everyone to lose their minds, and to be filled with a burning desire to never see Ben Earl moved away from 7 ever again
There were a couple of very dumb pens, and Marler could easily have seen red. But you're right, it wasn't a core problem. We didn't hold on to the ball for long enough or defend well enough for there to be enough phases for dumb penalties.Hal Jordan wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:57 am I didn't think.our discipline was that bad against Fiji, I can't remember any obvious numbskull penalties.
What was depressing was the compete failure to do anything with the man advantage during the yellow card period.
They really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.
Yep - can't understand how two players, as good as they are, could have such little influence on the game - it's perplexing.
For info - Bill Mata carries 19 times on Saturday and made 61 metres, his opposite number, Ben Earls made 5 carries for 16. Chessum and Cole each made ONE carry for 1 metre and made ONE tackle each. Not sure Earls made a decent number of carries? Big Bill is a beast of a carrier and will do it all day but Earls carry and yardage count isn't very impressive.Raggs wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:47 pmThey really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.
Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.
EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.
Lots of tackles made by the pair of them. There were no big hits. They largely lost the breakdown battle. There was one carry of note from the pair of them in the entire game. Willis is one of the best jackals in the game. I genuinely would struggle to point to a single time I realised he was involved, except when he was penalised. These are very, very good players playing at 50% of their ability.Raggs wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:47 pmThey really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.
Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.
EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.
Earldpedin wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 2:11 pmFor info - Bill Mata carries 19 times on Saturday and made 61 metres, his opposite number, Ben Earls made 5 carries for 16. Chessum and Cole each made ONE carry for 1 metre and made ONE tackle each. Not sure Earls made a decent number of carries? Big Bill is a beast of a carrier and will do it all day but Earls carry and yardage count isn't very impressive.Raggs wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:47 pmThey really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.
Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.
EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.
I agree about the ruck speed issue but I am not sure anyone would know what to do with quick ball anyway.
You mentioned most of that on the other thread, thanks.dpedin wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 2:11 pmFor info - Bill Mata carries 19 times on Saturday and made 61 metres, his opposite number, Ben Earls made 5 carries for 16. Chessum and Cole each made ONE carry for 1 metre and made ONE tackle each. Not sure Earls made a decent number of carries? Big Bill is a beast of a carrier and will do it all day but Earls carry and yardage count isn't very impressive.Raggs wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:47 pmThey really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.
Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.
EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.
I agree about the ruck speed issue but I am not sure anyone would know what to do with quick ball anyway.
Pedants!sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 2:55 pm Earl.
There's no s on the end. Please can we not have another Cole/Coles situation.
I know but it appeared Raggs hadn't seen it so I thought it was worth repeating to correct his misapprehension that Earl (with no s) made a decent number of carries - he hadn't!SaintK wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 3:06 pmYou mentioned most of that on the other thread, thanks.dpedin wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 2:11 pmFor info - Bill Mata carries 19 times on Saturday and made 61 metres, his opposite number, Ben Earls made 5 carries for 16. Chessum and Cole each made ONE carry for 1 metre and made ONE tackle each. Not sure Earls made a decent number of carries? Big Bill is a beast of a carrier and will do it all day but Earls carry and yardage count isn't very impressive.Raggs wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:47 pm
They really weren't. I'm not subjecting myself to ruck marks, but fairly sure Willis got us a couple of turnovers, and certainly slowed things down, same with Earls. Both made a decent number of carries, both a good number of tackles. Considering Willis was removed at the 57 minute mark, his carry and tackle numbers look even better.
Without ruck marks I can't be sure, but if you want anonymous, just look at Cole.
EDIT - Our ruck speed again was never consistently fast, it was decent at first, but then slowed down, or was slowed down. We never looked incisive because the defence was so often set. I don't know if it's clearout, presentation etc but something is not right, I suspect it's clarity of roles, who should be clearing, who isn't needed etc. Ireland avoid it by just throwing 2 in every time, even if it's not needed. They lose a player, but gain so much speed it's easily the better option.
I agree about the ruck speed issue but I am not sure anyone would know what to do with quick ball anyway.
There is he doesn't weigh 120kg, so England, being a cunning lot, send him to stand on the wing to use his breakdown skills to support or his pace to carry on the end of our sweeping wide plays.dpedin wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 3:10 pm
I know but it appeared Raggs hadn't seen it so I thought it was worth repeating to correct his misapprehension that Earl (with no s) made a decent number of carries - he hadn't!
He did say things were not working as they wanted in training, making too many errors, so its more of a sideways swipe at Scab and his regimeRhubarb & Custard wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:10 pm I didn't hear him as saying that, I took it as communication and decision making need to improve across the group around what they're trying to do, and the error rates in execution are too high.
and errors are a pain in the arse as it so slows the amount of work you can get through. and people can tend to drop intensity levels if they're expecting a mistake inside/earlier in the play
I took it more as a admission that the players just aren't executing plans and practice drills well, rather than a swipe at the coaches.
Seriously? They’re pros. They know how to drill.
And they're both still finding their feet at test level.Raggs wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:06 pm Earl and Willis can only make as many carries as are available to the team. If they've both made their fair share of more, it's hardly fair to call them anonymous.
We're playing like shit in general, but I see no reason to call out two players who really aren't at the bottom of the pile when it comes to being the worst on display.
