NPR

I watched the game last night in the end. My eyes, my eyes.

Think it was on this thread, discussing whether this is the worst England side of the pro era. Corry’s mob would have had a fright but in that driving rain would have monstered the Fiji pack, kicked more intelligently and ground out an uninspiring but relatively comfortable win. This is the pits.

For all the talk about our toothless attack it is our defence that worries me the most, I genuinely think it looks like a tier 2 system, totally unable to cope.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:02 am I watched the game last night in the end. My eyes, my eyes.

Think it was on this thread, discussing whether this is the worst England side of the pro era. Corry’s mob would have had a fright but in that driving rain would have monstered the Fiji pack, kicked more intelligently and ground out an uninspiring but relatively comfortable win. This is the pits.

For all the talk about our toothless attack it is our defence that worries me the most, I genuinely think it looks like a tier 2 system, totally unable to cope.

It's been dreadful for a while, we're frequently caught out of position and, individually, we look weak into the tackle. In the Scotland 6N match, for example, there were 4 half-arsed missed tackles Van Der Merwe's score against us, he's a bloody powerful lad so you can't just flap arms and consider it a tackle attempt. It wasn't international standard, and it costs us games.

We've been sprung too many times, and we've been run through too many times. I've not seen us look this passive and disorganised in many years. It's really troubling.

I think England's defensive malaise starts at 9. Youngs, Care, JVP and Mitchell all run away from contact, whereas 9s from other nations are throwing themselves into contact like demons this month.

Hardly all passive, let's not forget the high shots and the red cards

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:33 am Hardly all passive, let's not forget the high shots and the red cards

But those are passive. They're lazy, uninspired tackle techniques - just not bothering to do it right. "Meh, I'll just put the shoulder in; no-one in the management team care anyway....."

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:32 am I think England's defensive malaise starts at 9. Youngs, Care, JVP and Mitchell all run away from contact, whereas 9s from other nations are throwing themselves into contact like demons this month.

Potentially a factor but it doesn’t explain why others are falling off regulation tackles and there’s acres of space on the wings constantly

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:57 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:32 am I think England's defensive malaise starts at 9. Youngs, Care, JVP and Mitchell all run away from contact, whereas 9s from other nations are throwing themselves into contact like demons this month.

Potentially a factor but it doesn’t explain why others are falling off regulation tackles and there’s acres of space on the wings constantly

Oh don't get me wrong: you have a major issue with your defensive coaching this month.

Bit weird to be bigging up Faf de Klerk's tackling in comparison to England, a few days after he missed 5 tackles from 11 attempts against the ABs and SA's defence was still rock solid. Mitchell missed 3 from 10 fwiw.

Youngs doesn't run away from contact and it's not our 9s that are missing the tackles that lead to breaks tbh. There's also nothing wrong with having a more traditional sweeper role for your 9. But it's not just missed tackles - although we are the absolute worst there - it's the defensive system that sees us being outflanked pretty much whenever the opposition feels like it, exposing players and making their lives much harder, and the joys of watching Manu Tuilagi make a defensive call. The fact that we never have a settled back line also comes into play here. Sinfield simply isn't good enough to handle any of this.

Further to PB's point about Martin Corry's lot, I think this pack is better, but this pack is currently playing like they don't give a shit, don't want to be there, don't have any idea what they should be doing, and don't know how to get out of it. Maybe part of that is the warmup effect but even so...

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:37 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:33 am Hardly all passive, let's not forget the high shots and the red cards

But those are passive. They're lazy, uninspired tackle techniques - just not bothering to do it right. "Meh, I'll just put the shoulder in; no-one in the management team care anyway....."

That's a fairly unusual definition of passive - and not in alignment with the World Rugby view.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 11:08 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:37 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:33 am Hardly all passive, let's not forget the high shots and the red cards

But those are passive. They're lazy, uninspired tackle techniques - just not bothering to do it right. "Meh, I'll just put the shoulder in; no-one in the management team care anyway....."

That's a fairly unusual definition of passive - and not in alignment with the World Rugby view.

True

Watched the game again and England defence was just horrible!

- For disallowed try the defence was slow to set and allowed a big dog leg to develop just outside the breakdown, Chessum was slow to react and didnt get into line and Cole was too slow coming round the corner to support him, leaving a big gap for Fiji to flood into. If pass had been flat then easy walk in for Fiji.
- 1st try was very poor defending from May allowing winger to beat him out wide without slowing him down at all and then none of Englands defence could match inside run from Fiji 13 to prevent off load and try
- 2nd try down to Earl who was watching the Fiji players and caught on his heels, to be fair to him the rest of his forwards were very slow in resetting defensive line and he was left covering a big gap, and once Earl missed his man the Fijian only had Steward to beat and he isn't the fastest!
- 3rd try was just poor tackling and poor defensive set up. May had drifted off his wing and left space for Fijian 14 to take long pass and then he watched him jink his way off the wing. May was lost and didnt lay a hand on his opposite number, Ford got a hand on him but Cole tried to frisk him and Courtney-Lawes decided to watch rather than try and hit the winger who then had an easy off load to support runner.

Englands defence system is very poor particularly around the breakdown and individual players are just too slow in resetting the defensive line or making decisions. The likes of Cole, Chessum and even Courtney-Lawes were most at fault in the tries but apart from Earl and Dan the pack were just too cumbersome and slow in defence. Poor defensive systems, poor individual mistakes and poor work rate were the main reasons behind Englands defensive problems. Lots and lots of work required but England cant go into big games with the likes of Cole, Marler, Sinkler, George, Stuart and Courtney-Lawes all playing in the same team as they are just not able to play at pace required these days. Also Tuliagi is a problem in midfield defence and for me Lawrence and Marchant have to starting 12-13. May might score a try but he will concede two or three and isn't really an option for winger either - Watson is a quality player and will be a big loss.

Well, irrespective of the firm of Earls, Earl and Willis, I think we can all agree Cole is way past it. A few years back you could overlook his ruck inspecting and minimal impact around the pitch because of his scrummaging, but he is just a waste of space.

Problem is, Stuart is a career Test back up and Sinckler has fallen off a cliff, form wise.

Mate, if you're watching that game twice, deliberately, and you're not an England coach or an opposition coach, I'd suggest taking a very long look at what you're doing with yourself.

Also his name is Courtney Lawes. As in, surname Lawes.

Yikes to this attack, but everyone seems to do it ... tackle in the wide channel, go to the pod, play wide if not to another pod. People in the twitter threat saying it should have gone to Smith also too into 'systems' thinking, as the lads out wide needed to change gears and get flat to exploit that huge opportunity.

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:29 pm Yikes to this attack, but everyone seems to do it ... tackle in the wide channel, go to the pod, play wide if not to another pod. People in the twitter threat saying it should have gone to Smith also too into 'systems' thinking, as the lads out wide needed to change gears and get flat to exploit that huge opportunity.

Yes I screamed when watching this one

I was disgusted that we didn't hoist an up and under for our manly men to leap into the air to catch, like the salmon rises above the clumsy, grasping paws of the slow moving bear.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:57 pm

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:29 pm Yikes to this attack, but everyone seems to do it ... tackle in the wide channel, go to the pod, play wide if not to another pod. People in the twitter threat saying it should have gone to Smith also too into 'systems' thinking, as the lads out wide needed to change gears and get flat to exploit that huge opportunity.

Yes I screamed when watching this one

England winger is standing on the far touchline. Ireland #10 would have kicked it to him.

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:29 pm Yikes to this attack, but everyone seems to do it ... tackle in the wide channel, go to the pod, play wide if not to another pod. People in the twitter threat saying it should have gone to Smith also too into 'systems' thinking, as the lads out wide needed to change gears and get flat to exploit that huge opportunity.

'tis a common theme of mine. yes you need the shape to present to an organised defence, but once there's space it's much simpler to just put the ball down the line, and yet time is still given over to getting into the known shape.

and really not many teams are good at identifying those chances. clearly what looks simple to us from an armchair isn't simple to recognise, communicate and respond as a team to

of course England avoid many of these problems by just kicking the ball away whether there's a chance to force a defence into scramble defence or not, frankly we'd kick a 5 on 1 overlap and near certain try if you can make 3-4 passes

IMO English players train/play to ignore overlaps and just bosh it up. Jasper Wiese plays for Leicester and blew two huuuge overlaps against Wales to truck it up into contact instead. The SA and Japan-based backs outside him all put their hands on their heads……

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:18 pm Mate, if you're watching that game twice, deliberately, and you're not an England coach or an opposition coach, I'd suggest taking a very long look at what you're doing with yourself.

Also his name is Courtney Lawes. As in, surname Lawes.

Love the idea that its a hyphenated surname and we've just had kt wrong the whole time.

Alexander Courtney-Lawes?

It seems fair to put the blame on us for being rubbish at us playing rugby. But you can live with your own players refusal to even attempt to play by yourselves

I swear the use of grubber kicks has skyrocketed also, we sure Sinfield isn't coaching the attack as well?

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:52 pm It seems fair to put the blame on us for being rubbish at us playing rugby. But you can live with your own players refusal to even attempt to play by yourselves

I hate the Boks who play in England: Faf, Wiese, Esterhuizen. They don’t pass and are prone to brain-farts.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:56 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:52 pm It seems fair to put the blame on us for being rubbish at us playing rugby. But you can live with your own players refusal to even attempt to play by yourselves

I hate the Boks who play in England: Faf, Wiese, Esterhuizen. They don’t pass and are prone to brain-farts.

Okay, take them back, or don't pick them. But they didn't arrive playing skilled rugby and we've beaten it out of them, more they fit into our scene.

Sometimes we get quality coming in that lifts standard. When George Smith rocked up at Wasps not only was he superb but you could see what happened when someone people would listen to said your skills are rubbish and we need to spend actual time working on them, the standard of handling notably improved in the Wasps pack. But you don't get many George Smiths, and mostly the English game isn't ready enough to listen to the idea skills are useful

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 5:19 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:56 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:52 pm It seems fair to put the blame on us for being rubbish at us playing rugby. But you can live with your own players refusal to even attempt to play by yourselves

I hate the Boks who play in England: Faf, Wiese, Esterhuizen. They don’t pass and are prone to brain-farts.

Okay, take them back, or don't pick them. But they didn't arrive playing skilled rugby and we've beaten it out of them, more they fit into our scene.

Sometimes we get quality coming in that lifts standard. When George Smith rocked up at Wasps not only was he superb but you could see what happened when someone people would listen to said your skills are rubbish and we need to spend actual time working on them, the standard of handling notably improved in the Wasps pack. But you don't get many George Smiths, and mostly the English game isn't ready enough to listen to the idea skills are useful

I think we’re saying the same thing : English club rugby is conservative, slow-paced and ball skills are not highly valued. Of course some clubs - like Quins - play a different game most weeks, but generally…….

I was just following up on a few Wasps whose futures were unknown when I did a big run down almost 2 months ago. Zach Kibirige has pitched up in Basque country with Biarritz after his stint with Western Force while Ben Morris is togging out for Moseley and has qualified as a financial adviser.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 5:23 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 5:19 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:56 pm

I hate the Boks who play in England: Faf, Wiese, Esterhuizen. They don’t pass and are prone to brain-farts.

Okay, take them back, or don't pick them. But they didn't arrive playing skilled rugby and we've beaten it out of them, more they fit into our scene.

Sometimes we get quality coming in that lifts standard. When George Smith rocked up at Wasps not only was he superb but you could see what happened when someone people would listen to said your skills are rubbish and we need to spend actual time working on them, the standard of handling notably improved in the Wasps pack. But you don't get many George Smiths, and mostly the English game isn't ready enough to listen to the idea skills are useful

I think we’re saying the same thing : English club rugby is conservative, slow-paced and ball skills are not highly valued. Of course some clubs - like Quins - play a different game most weeks, but generally…….

Mostly a fair charge, but it's not why the SA rugby side is boring. And actually your national setup being typically dull as ditchwater is odder than ours in that a lot of you club rugby has had pace and skill, and still there's the assumption that won't work at test level

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:47 pm IMO English players train/play to ignore overlaps and just bosh it up. Jasper Wiese plays for Leicester and blew two huuuge overlaps against Wales to truck it up into contact instead. The SA and Japan-based backs outside him all put their hands on their heads……

I attended a session once with a coach educator who'd been involved with England for a bit. He said (and this would be around 2017/18) that there were a good number of players who preferred to be told where to do and the exact plays to run rather than work on things to develop creativity.

Rugby often feels these days that it's about winning collisions to get a quick recycle and an easy run somewhere moreso than cleverly breaching the defensive line in a variety of ways.

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:29 pm Yikes to this attack, but everyone seems to do it ... tackle in the wide channel, go to the pod, play wide if not to another pod. People in the twitter threat saying it should have gone to Smith also too into 'systems' thinking, as the lads out wide needed to change gears and get flat to exploit that huge opportunity.

Given our centres were walking back towards the ruck chatting just before this screenshot, the pass from the base was by May and over Fords head, and we had 3 forwards outside of Smith before it would have got to the centres, (and then the depth they were all stood), I don't think it's as big a miss as people have suggested.

Pass to Chessum gives the opportunity to fix the attack and out the back from Chessum (who unfortunately didn't quite have enough time to do that).

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:14 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:47 pm IMO English players train/play to ignore overlaps and just bosh it up. Jasper Wiese plays for Leicester and blew two huuuge overlaps against Wales to truck it up into contact instead. The SA and Japan-based backs outside him all put their hands on their heads……

I attended a session once with a coach educator who'd been involved with England for a bit. He said (and this would be around 2017/18) that there were a good number of players who preferred to be told where to do and the exact plays to run rather than work on things to develop creativity.

Rugby often feels these days that it's about winning collisions to get a quick recycle and an easy run somewhere moreso than cleverly breaching the defensive line in a variety of ways.

And what's depressing is that that's about a decade on from the player revolt against Brian Ashton during the '07 world cup and the central complaints there seemed to be that he wanted to actually encourage them to do some thinking and play a bit, which the players couldn't handle.

It's probably even worse now with the academy system being so embedded and players used to doing exactly what they're told in order to stay in coaches' good graces from their mid teens onwards.

el capitan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:55 pm I swear the use of grubber kicks has skyrocketed also, we sure Sinfield isn't coaching the attack as well?

Appreciate you’re not being fully serious but cast your mind back to the post-mortem from the Italy game (increasingly looking like the high water mark of the year), and the twin justifications for the constant grubbers were:
- avoiding chances to turn the ball over
- keeping Italy pinned in their half

Which seems defence coach led

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:16 pm

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:14 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:47 pm IMO English players train/play to ignore overlaps and just bosh it up. Jasper Wiese plays for Leicester and blew two huuuge overlaps against Wales to truck it up into contact instead. The SA and Japan-based backs outside him all put their hands on their heads……

I attended a session once with a coach educator who'd been involved with England for a bit. He said (and this would be around 2017/18) that there were a good number of players who preferred to be told where to do and the exact plays to run rather than work on things to develop creativity.

Rugby often feels these days that it's about winning collisions to get a quick recycle and an easy run somewhere moreso than cleverly breaching the defensive line in a variety of ways.

And what's depressing is that that's about a decade on from the player revolt against Brian Ashton during the '07 world cup and the central complaints there seemed to be that he wanted to actually encourage them to do some thinking and play a bit, which the players couldn't handle.

It's probably even worse now with the academy system being so embedded and players used to doing exactly what they're told in order to stay in coaches' good graces from their mid teens onwards.

16 years on and players are so programmed I don’t think they have a player revolt in them

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:40 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:16 pm

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:14 pm

I attended a session once with a coach educator who'd been involved with England for a bit. He said (and this would be around 2017/18) that there were a good number of players who preferred to be told where to do and the exact plays to run rather than work on things to develop creativity.

Rugby often feels these days that it's about winning collisions to get a quick recycle and an easy run somewhere moreso than cleverly breaching the defensive line in a variety of ways.

And what's depressing is that that's about a decade on from the player revolt against Brian Ashton during the '07 world cup and the central complaints there seemed to be that he wanted to actually encourage them to do some thinking and play a bit, which the players couldn't handle.

It's probably even worse now with the academy system being so embedded and players used to doing exactly what they're told in order to stay in coaches' good graces from their mid teens onwards.

16 years on and players are so programmed I don’t think they have a player revolt in them

Especially when those who show any signs of not being mindlessly obedient seem to get ostracised (Brown, Care, Cipriani).

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:51 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:18 pm Mate, if you're watching that game twice, deliberately, and you're not an England coach or an opposition coach, I'd suggest taking a very long look at what you're doing with yourself.

Also his name is Courtney Lawes. As in, surname Lawes.

Love the idea that its a hyphenated surname and we've just had kt wrong the whole time.

Alexander Courtney-Lawes?

I think someone once said Lawes would struggle to pour water out of his boot if the instructions were on the sole, so it's quite possible that he has been getting his own name wrong all these years.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:15 am

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:51 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:18 pm Mate, if you're watching that game twice, deliberately, and you're not an England coach or an opposition coach, I'd suggest taking a very long look at what you're doing with yourself.

Also his name is Courtney Lawes. As in, surname Lawes.

Love the idea that its a hyphenated surname and we've just had kt wrong the whole time.

Alexander Courtney-Lawes?

I think someone once said Lawes would struggle to pour water out of his boot if the instructions were on the sole, so it's quite possible that he has been getting his own name wrong all these years.

Very harsh!
Might have been a bit slow on the uptake when younger and was incredibly introverted and shy. Not sure any coach would have nominated him as a captain if that was the case in recent years.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:40 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:16 pm

Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:14 pm

I attended a session once with a coach educator who'd been involved with England for a bit. He said (and this would be around 2017/18) that there were a good number of players who preferred to be told where to do and the exact plays to run rather than work on things to develop creativity.

Rugby often feels these days that it's about winning collisions to get a quick recycle and an easy run somewhere moreso than cleverly breaching the defensive line in a variety of ways.

And what's depressing is that that's about a decade on from the player revolt against Brian Ashton during the '07 world cup and the central complaints there seemed to be that he wanted to actually encourage them to do some thinking and play a bit, which the players couldn't handle.

It's probably even worse now with the academy system being so embedded and players used to doing exactly what they're told in order to stay in coaches' good graces from their mid teens onwards.

16 years on and players are so programmed I don’t think they have a player revolt in them

This isn't confined to Eng. As per debate with J2M, my contention is that rugby players are so over coached, the vast majority are incapable of "heads up rugby" i.e. playing what's in front of them rather than too pre-ordained patterns. Even the keewees suffer from it: look at what happens when BB is at FH.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:21 am

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:15 am

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:51 pm

Love the idea that its a hyphenated surname and we've just had kt wrong the whole time.

Alexander Courtney-Lawes?

I think someone once said Lawes would struggle to pour water out of his boot if the instructions were on the sole, so it's quite possible that he has been getting his own name wrong all these years.

Very harsh!
Might have been a bit slow on the uptake when younger and was incredibly introverted and shy. Not sure any coach would have nominated him as a captain if that was the case in recent years.

a) We are talking Eng here..............
b) Lawes is thicker than a baobab trunk but maybe he's selected as captain as one of those lead by example types? Hell, he's one of a few Eng players who can genuinely claim to have been giving it his all in recent games.
c) And anyway, in these over coached player days, the role of captain has almost become irrelevant. Even onfield decisions are made by coaches from the sidelines.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:05 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:40 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:16 pm

And what's depressing is that that's about a decade on from the player revolt against Brian Ashton during the '07 world cup and the central complaints there seemed to be that he wanted to actually encourage them to do some thinking and play a bit, which the players couldn't handle.

It's probably even worse now with the academy system being so embedded and players used to doing exactly what they're told in order to stay in coaches' good graces from their mid teens onwards.

16 years on and players are so programmed I don’t think they have a player revolt in them

This isn't confined to Eng. As per debate with J2M, my contention is that rugby players are so over coached, the vast majority are incapable of "heads up rugby" i.e. playing what's in front of them rather than too pre-ordained patterns. Even the keewees suffer from it: look at what happens when BB is at FH.

They razzle dazzle their way to a world cup?

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:05 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:05 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:40 pm

16 years on and players are so programmed I don’t think they have a player revolt in them

This isn't confined to Eng. As per debate with J2M, my contention is that rugby players are so over coached, the vast majority are incapable of "heads up rugby" i.e. playing what's in front of them rather than too pre-ordained patterns. Even the keewees suffer from it: look at what happens when BB is at FH.

They razzle dazzle their way to a world cup?

You put your money on that one ;¬)

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:21 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:05 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:05 am

This isn't confined to Eng. As per debate with J2M, my contention is that rugby players are so over coached, the vast majority are incapable of "heads up rugby" i.e. playing what's in front of them rather than too pre-ordained patterns. Even the keewees suffer from it: look at what happens when BB is at FH.

They razzle dazzle their way to a world cup?

You put your money on that one ;¬)

In fairness I forgot he wasn't playing 10 in 2015. But he did win world player of the year at 10. Twice.