NPR

Where do we go from here? Assuming Scabnose stays, will the EPS agreement allow for large scale changes in the squad?

The likes of May, Daly, Tuilagi, Care, Youngs, Vunipola and Cole need to go. Likely Marler too and, ideally, Farrell.

Biggest concern for me is tighthead. Sinckler isn't up to it atm, Stuart looks worse in the scrum, Williams is in France and Cole is 47. Genuinely, who is there that can come in and be effective?

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:23 am Where do we go from here? Assuming Scabnose stays, will the EPS agreement allow for large scale changes in the squad?

The likes of May, Daly, Tuilagi, Care, Youngs, Vunipola and Cole need to go. Likely Marler too and, ideally, Farrell.

Biggest concern for me is tighthead. Sinckler isn't up to it atm, Stuart looks worse in the scrum, Williams is in France and Cole is 47. Genuinely, who is there that can come in and be effective?

No idea if these guys are any good, but her’re three names.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/next-kyle-sinckl ... cks-squad/

Slightly concerned they’re saying ‘the next sinkler”

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:57 am

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:23 am Where do we go from here? Assuming Scabnose stays, will the EPS agreement allow for large scale changes in the squad?

The likes of May, Daly, Tuilagi, Care, Youngs, Vunipola and Cole need to go. Likely Marler too and, ideally, Farrell.

Biggest concern for me is tighthead. Sinckler isn't up to it atm, Stuart looks worse in the scrum, Williams is in France and Cole is 47. Genuinely, who is there that can come in and be effective?

No idea if these guys are any good, but her’re three names.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/next-kyle-sinckl ... cks-squad/

Slightly concerned they’re saying ‘the next sinkler”

On current form, it is almost a threat

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:57 am

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:23 am Where do we go from here? Assuming Scabnose stays, will the EPS agreement allow for large scale changes in the squad?

The likes of May, Daly, Tuilagi, Care, Youngs, Vunipola and Cole need to go. Likely Marler too and, ideally, Farrell.

Biggest concern for me is tighthead. Sinckler isn't up to it atm, Stuart looks worse in the scrum, Williams is in France and Cole is 47. Genuinely, who is there that can come in and be effective?

No idea if these guys are any good, but her’re three names.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/next-kyle-sinckl ... cks-squad/

Slightly concerned they’re saying ‘the next sinkler”

Very unlikely any of those guys are going to be ready before the next tournament.

We also don't have a particularly good track record of promising U20/academy front rowers turning into internationals, let alone good ones.

Tighthead in general across the league is stacked with utterly mediocre looking EQP players. It's a problem.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:12 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:57 am

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:23 am Where do we go from here? Assuming Scabnose stays, will the EPS agreement allow for large scale changes in the squad?

The likes of May, Daly, Tuilagi, Care, Youngs, Vunipola and Cole need to go. Likely Marler too and, ideally, Farrell.

Biggest concern for me is tighthead. Sinckler isn't up to it atm, Stuart looks worse in the scrum, Williams is in France and Cole is 47. Genuinely, who is there that can come in and be effective?

No idea if these guys are any good, but her’re three names.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/next-kyle-sinckl ... cks-squad/

Slightly concerned they’re saying ‘the next sinkler”

Very unlikely any of those guys are going to be ready before the next tournament.

We also don't have a particularly good track record of promising U20/academy front rowers turning into internationals, let alone good ones.

Tighthead in general across the league is stacked with utterly mediocre looking EQP players. It's a problem.

Yeah, suspect that’s why the article jumped a generation; we haven’t got anyone decent.

There no Matt stevens saffas out there we can borrow?

Getting new props cappped has got to be a priority.

Borthwick got his tactics for this game spot on..SA were the perfect opposition for Leicester style cup final rugby as they lacked the ability to get outside Englands defence.

As such his stock is up a bit. But whilst I can just about tolerate 10 months of turgid rugby as something of RWC emergency salvage mission I hope now he has 4 years we might see something better.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:57 am

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:23 am Where do we go from here? Assuming Scabnose stays, will the EPS agreement allow for large scale changes in the squad?

The likes of May, Daly, Tuilagi, Care, Youngs, Vunipola and Cole need to go. Likely Marler too and, ideally, Farrell.

Biggest concern for me is tighthead. Sinckler isn't up to it atm, Stuart looks worse in the scrum, Williams is in France and Cole is 47. Genuinely, who is there that can come in and be effective?

No idea if these guys are any good, but her’re three names.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/next-kyle-sinckl ... cks-squad/

Slightly concerned they’re saying ‘the next sinkler”

"Wrong side of 30" players in the squad

George 32 - Dan seems to have been annointed as the next England hooker. Curtis Langdon at Saints carries a decent rep and Sam Riley at Quins looked like he should be the future a couple of years ago in the U20s. Jack Singleton could yet come back into the reckoning.

Cole 36 - fuck knows.

Marler 33 - Tom West, Finn Baxter

Sinckler 30 - 34 by the next world cup isn't out of the question for a prop, but he's already waned so much. Trevor Davison is a possible alternative, but he's also 30. At 24, Joe Heyes is getting a bit beyond the status of a promising youth who'll come good.

Lawes 34 - Thankfully we don't lack for back rowers. Besides players already in the squad who can play there, Ted Hill should come into the reckoning

Vunipola 30 - Mercer, T.Willis

Care 36 - Quirke, van Portvliet,
Youngs 34 - See above

Farrell 31 - With Smith and Ford we don't need him at 10. Lawrence should be our 12 with players like Seb Atkinson, Max Ojomoh, Dan Kelly and Olly Hartley being looked up as alternatives.

Daly 30 - Not done anything particularly impressive in an England shirt for a while and we have back three players falling out of our ears. Freeman, Arundel, Radwan and Murley all deserve a chance.

Tuilagi 32 - See comments about Farrell.

May 33 - See comments about Daly

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:32 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:57 am

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:23 am Where do we go from here? Assuming Scabnose stays, will the EPS agreement allow for large scale changes in the squad?

The likes of May, Daly, Tuilagi, Care, Youngs, Vunipola and Cole need to go. Likely Marler too and, ideally, Farrell.

Biggest concern for me is tighthead. Sinckler isn't up to it atm, Stuart looks worse in the scrum, Williams is in France and Cole is 47. Genuinely, who is there that can come in and be effective?

No idea if these guys are any good, but her’re three names.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/next-kyle-sinckl ... cks-squad/

Slightly concerned they’re saying ‘the next sinkler”

"Wrong side of 30" players in the squad

George 32 - Dan seems to have been annointed as the next England hooker. Curtis Langdon at Saints carries a decent rep and Sam Riley at Quins looked like he should be the future a couple of years ago in the U20s. Jack Singleton could yet come back into the reckoning.

Cole 36 - fuck knows.

Marler 33 - Tom West, Finn Baxter

Sinckler 30 - 34 by the next world cup isn't out of the question for a prop, but he's already waned so much. Trevor Davison is a possible alternative, but he's also 30. At 24, Joe Heyes is getting a bit beyond the status of a promising youth who'll come good.

Lawes 34 - Thankfully we don't lack for back rowers. Besides players already in the squad who can play there, Ted Hill should come into the reckoning

Vunipola 30 - Mercer, T.Willis

Care 36 - Quirke, van Portvliet,
Youngs 34 - See above

Farrell 31 - With Smith and Ford we don't need him at 10. Lawrence should be our 12 with players like Seb Atkinson, Max Ojomoh, Dan Kelly and Olly Hartley being looked up as alternatives.

Daly 30 - Not done anything particularly impressive in an England shirt for a while and we have back three players falling out of our ears. Freeman, Arundel, Radwan and Murley all deserve a chance.

Tuilagi 32 - See comments about Farrell.

May 33 - See comments about Daly

Wonder whether worrying about players is secondary to what borthwick wants to do now.

Basically it was mission accomplished for him. He’s probably bought himself at least 2 six nations runs.

Everything anyone has said about him has been that he likes to play a certain way (not far off what we saw yesterday).

So we’re gonna find out if that’s true; will he prioritise his system, and so pick players best suited to that system. Or will he look at the available players and build an identity around the themes running through the Premiership?

I’m going to pen an email to arundell and ask him to start training hard for chasing box kicks.

Manny Iyogun looks to have real promise at loosehead and is only 22, but he just can't seem to stay injury-free.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:55 am
Wonder whether worrying about players is secondary to what borthwick wants to do now.

Basically it was mission accomplished for him. He’s probably bought himself at least 2 six nations runs.

Everything anyone has said about him has been that he likes to play a certain way (not far off what we saw yesterday).

So we’re gonna find out if that’s true; will he prioritise his system, and so pick players best suited to that system. Or will he look at the available players and build an identity around the themes running through the Premiership?

I’m going to pen an email to arundell and ask him to start training hard for chasing box kicks.

He is 100% a systems coach who will try and get players to fit his game plan rather than work a game plan that fits them. I imagine several of the players I mentioned are going to be held onto while he beds that in. However, I think that's a mistake. Most of them will need to be gotten rid of during the next world cup cycle, so why not ditch them now and give their replacements an extra 10 - 20 caps in the system Borthers wants to play? Coaches often leave the squad refresh too later and it comes back to bite them.

Borthwick said he’d have a side ready for the first game of the world cup and the semi final, and he wasn’t wrong. He’s bought himself the time to drill the side. I’m loath to use cycle because I really want a 6N win and ideally a grand slam, it’s been far too long.

We stuck and got a 6N win in 2020 when other sides rang the changes, but then we were behind the curve on a much needed squad refresh and were quickly overtaken. Besides which we won't get that win. We only have two home games and are categorically not a better team than France and Ireland right now.

Last night's performance was good, very good, but much like the 2019 semi-final (which I maintain featured the only notable opponent we faced at that world cup) it shouldn't be allowed to paper over some very clear cracks with our personnel.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:17 am We stuck and got a 6N win in 2020 when other sides rang the changes, but then we were behind the curve on a much needed squad refresh and were quickly overtaken. Besides which we won't get that win. We only have two home games and are categorically not a better team than France and Ireland right now.

Last night's performance was good, very good, but much like the 2019 semi-final (which I maintain featured the only notable opponent we faced at that world cup) it shouldn't be allowed to paper over some very clear cracks with our personnel.

I hate to use them as a model, but Wales have won multiple GS with a limited game plan and not the most talented squad in the 6N.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:19 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:17 am We stuck and got a 6N win in 2020 when other sides rang the changes, but then we were behind the curve on a much needed squad refresh and were quickly overtaken. Besides which we won't get that win. We only have two home games and are categorically not a better team than France and Ireland right now.

Last night's performance was good, very good, but much like the 2019 semi-final (which I maintain featured the only notable opponent we faced at that world cup) it shouldn't be allowed to paper over some very clear cracks with our personnel.

I hate to use them as a model, but Wales have won multiple GS with a limited game plan and not the most talented squad in the 6N.

You're right to hate using them as a model. Their last win was that absurd jam slam where Red Card was their mvp. They very rarely do anything of note against the Southern Hemisphere and frankly I'd far rather our record than theirs in that department, even if it comes at the expense of a 6N title. But then I know I'm a bit odd in placing more importance on overall win rate than silver.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:17 am We stuck and got a 6N win in 2020 when other sides rang the changes, but then we were behind the curve on a much needed squad refresh and were quickly overtaken. Besides which we won't get that win. We only have two home games and are categorically not a better team than France and Ireland right now.

Last night's performance was good, very good, but much like the 2019 semi-final (which I maintain featured the only notable opponent we faced at that world cup) it shouldn't be allowed to paper over some very clear cracks with our personnel.

I struggle to compare the two semi finals. One was an incredible performance that took apart the undisputed best team in the world who hadn't lost a world cup match in a very long time, and the other lost to a fairly average SA. side playing extremely poorly while themselves playing almost no rugby and suffering a ton of self inflicted wounds.

The NZ match was a high water mark, an astonishingly good display of extremely smart rugby. Yesterday was the epitome of dragging a team down to your level and then failing to beat them. It was garbage made more palatable by the hapless Saffers failing to deal with it for an hour.

It's not even as good as the wins against Australia and France in 2007.

Wales are a handy comparison here actually. For England 2023 see Wales 2019. An eye bleedingly awful semi final loss to SA.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:46 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:17 am We stuck and got a 6N win in 2020 when other sides rang the changes, but then we were behind the curve on a much needed squad refresh and were quickly overtaken. Besides which we won't get that win. We only have two home games and are categorically not a better team than France and Ireland right now.

Last night's performance was good, very good, but much like the 2019 semi-final (which I maintain featured the only notable opponent we faced at that world cup) it shouldn't be allowed to paper over some very clear cracks with our personnel.

I struggle to compare the two semi finals. One was an incredible performance that took apart the undisputed best team in the world who hadn't lost a world cup match in a very long time, and the other lost to a fairly average SA. side playing extremely poorly while themselves playing almost no rugby and suffering a ton of self inflicted wounds.

The NZ match was a high water mark, an astonishingly good display of extremely smart rugby. Yesterday was the epitome of dragging a team down to your level and then failing to beat them. It was garbage made more palatable by the hapless Saffers failing to deal with it for an hour.

It's not even as good as the wins against Australia and France in 2007.

You arsehole - You’ve just made me feel like a pre-fin Russel/Hogg Scotland fan!

I know this link comes around regularly, and don't know what any of our Sarries fans may have heard, but for months now the Wigan RL lot have been seriously rumouring that Farrell is "coming home".

I'd say Cole, Marler, Vunipola, Youngs, Care, Tuilagi, Daly, May shouldn't be seen again (be a bit more ruthless in the backs - no more slow as shite dinosaur wingers). I'd drop but leave the door open for someone like Sinckler to have a renaissance. For now I'd keep George (lack of options) and even Lawes (arguably our best player in the tournament) if he wants to stay on, with a view to managing the transition to others.

As for Scabbers/the gameplan - getting organised and defensively solid, refusing to play any rugby whatsoever, and dragging teams down to our level might be ok, and fairly hilarious, in world cup knockout games, but it will be a disgrace if that continues game after game, series after series. Fans aren't going to stand for it, and I don't think this banter run has won back much goodwill (which was already at rock bottom) amongst the rugby public. We have to be so much better. Personally I'd still boot him out, whatever the cost to the RFU, but he has simply got to do more than turgid forwards-based kick and chase tight attritional rugby going forward.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:46 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:17 am We stuck and got a 6N win in 2020 when other sides rang the changes, but then we were behind the curve on a much needed squad refresh and were quickly overtaken. Besides which we won't get that win. We only have two home games and are categorically not a better team than France and Ireland right now.

Last night's performance was good, very good, but much like the 2019 semi-final (which I maintain featured the only notable opponent we faced at that world cup) it shouldn't be allowed to paper over some very clear cracks with our personnel.

I struggle to compare the two semi finals. One was an incredible performance that took apart the undisputed best team in the world who hadn't lost a world cup match in a very long time, and the other lost to a fairly average SA. side playing extremely poorly while themselves playing almost no rugby and suffering a ton of self inflicted wounds.

The NZ match was a high water mark, an astonishingly good display of extremely smart rugby. Yesterday was the epitome of dragging a team down to your level and then failing to beat them. It was garbage made more palatable by the hapless Saffers failing to deal with it for an hour.

It's not even as good as the wins against Australia and France in 2007.

I don't think the performance levels in absolute terms were comparable, more that for their respective teams they represent a higher level of performance than we'd come to associate with them deep into the world cup and thus could be enough to convince some that there aren't deep seated issues that need to be addressed. It's a trap that was fallen into in 2019/20 and we really shouldn't repeat it again.

While we're considering England's future props, Baxter vs. Painter should be an interesting battle in this afternoon's game.

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:18 pm I know this link comes around regularly, and don't know what any of our Sarries fans may have heard, but for months now the Wigan RL lot have been seriously rumouring that Farrell is "coming home".

We can but hope...

Dombrandt with motm for Quins. With the cameras zooming in on him, he looks fairly trim.

Chris Ashton on the rugby show that follows the game saying that the players at Borthwick's disposal, including top performers in the Premiership not currently in the set up, don't necessarily fit the game he coached at Leicester and has so far coached for England. Backs him to be smart enough to realise that (won't hold my breath...).

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:56 pm Dombrandt with motm for Quins. With the cameras zooming in on him, he looks fairly trim.

If only he were as good as Billy Vunipola.

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:18 pm I know this link comes around regularly, and don't know what any of our Sarries fans may have heard, but for months now the Wigan RL lot have been seriously rumouring that Farrell is "coming home".

I'd say Cole, Marler, Vunipola, Youngs, Care, Tuilagi, Daly, May shouldn't be seen again (be a bit more ruthless in the backs - no more slow as shite dinosaur wingers). I'd drop but leave the door open for someone like Sinckler to have a renaissance. For now I'd keep George (lack of options) and even Lawes (arguably our best player in the tournament) if he wants to stay on, with a view to managing the transition to others.

As for Scabbers/the gameplan - getting organised and defensively solid, refusing to play any rugby whatsoever, and dragging teams down to our level might be ok, and fairly hilarious, in world cup knockout games, but it will be a disgrace if that continues game after game, series after series. Fans aren't going to stand for it, and I don't think this banter run has won back much goodwill (which was already at rock bottom) amongst the rugby public. We have to be so much better. Personally I'd still boot him out, whatever the cost to the RFU, but he has simply got to do more than turgid forwards-based kick and chase tight attritional rugby going forward.

Read an article the other day saying that the Lancaster coaching team that bombed in that WC had 3 years together before it and still bombed. This lot have had a few months and got handed a fucked squad.

From an outsider point of view I think you need to back off and give him time

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:28 pm

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:18 pm I know this link comes around regularly, and don't know what any of our Sarries fans may have heard, but for months now the Wigan RL lot have been seriously rumouring that Farrell is "coming home".

I'd say Cole, Marler, Vunipola, Youngs, Care, Tuilagi, Daly, May shouldn't be seen again (be a bit more ruthless in the backs - no more slow as shite dinosaur wingers). I'd drop but leave the door open for someone like Sinckler to have a renaissance. For now I'd keep George (lack of options) and even Lawes (arguably our best player in the tournament) if he wants to stay on, with a view to managing the transition to others.

As for Scabbers/the gameplan - getting organised and defensively solid, refusing to play any rugby whatsoever, and dragging teams down to our level might be ok, and fairly hilarious, in world cup knockout games, but it will be a disgrace if that continues game after game, series after series. Fans aren't going to stand for it, and I don't think this banter run has won back much goodwill (which was already at rock bottom) amongst the rugby public. We have to be so much better. Personally I'd still boot him out, whatever the cost to the RFU, but he has simply got to do more than turgid forwards-based kick and chase tight attritional rugby going forward.

Read an article the other day saying that the Lancaster coaching team that bombed in that WC had 3 years together before it and still bombed. This lot have had a few months and got handed a fucked squad.

From an outsider point of view I think you need to back off and give him time

I'm sure you lot will bloody love it if we keep playing zero rugby and struggle to score tries.

The thing with the Lancaster lot is that although they fucked the world cup, they also had an 80% win rate in the 6N, our first win over New Zealand in a decade, dragged us back to being generally competitive with the SH. It understandably over-shadows them, but that coaching team's tenure had a lot more to it than the world cup.

Borthwick doesn't have that behind him. He has a Premiership win with a Leicester team that played incredibly limited rugby. It may be that that's enough in the Prem, but it's not at international level and having the easiest possible route to a semi-final (that we've lost) doesn't change that.

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:08 pm

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:18 pm I know this link comes around regularly, and don't know what any of our Sarries fans may have heard, but for months now the Wigan RL lot have been seriously rumouring that Farrell is "coming home".

We can but hope...

We are stuck with him for another four years..may aswell get in board with it now.

Notice hes being hailed as the second coming in the press..memory holed all his petulant shit.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:44 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:28 pm

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:18 pm I know this link comes around regularly, and don't know what any of our Sarries fans may have heard, but for months now the Wigan RL lot have been seriously rumouring that Farrell is "coming home".

I'd say Cole, Marler, Vunipola, Youngs, Care, Tuilagi, Daly, May shouldn't be seen again (be a bit more ruthless in the backs - no more slow as shite dinosaur wingers). I'd drop but leave the door open for someone like Sinckler to have a renaissance. For now I'd keep George (lack of options) and even Lawes (arguably our best player in the tournament) if he wants to stay on, with a view to managing the transition to others.

As for Scabbers/the gameplan - getting organised and defensively solid, refusing to play any rugby whatsoever, and dragging teams down to our level might be ok, and fairly hilarious, in world cup knockout games, but it will be a disgrace if that continues game after game, series after series. Fans aren't going to stand for it, and I don't think this banter run has won back much goodwill (which was already at rock bottom) amongst the rugby public. We have to be so much better. Personally I'd still boot him out, whatever the cost to the RFU, but he has simply got to do more than turgid forwards-based kick and chase tight attritional rugby going forward.

Read an article the other day saying that the Lancaster coaching team that bombed in that WC had 3 years together before it and still bombed. This lot have had a few months and got handed a fucked squad.

From an outsider point of view I think you need to back off and give him time

I'm sure you lot will bloody love it if we keep playing zero rugby and struggle to score tries.

The thing with the Lancaster lot is that although they fucked the world cup, they also had an 80% win rate in the 6N, our first win over New Zealand in a decade, dragged us back to being generally competitive with the SH. It understandably over-shadows them, but that coaching team's tenure had a lot more to it than the world cup.

Borthwick doesn't have that behind him. He has a Premiership win with a Leicester team that played incredibly limited rugby. It may be that that's enough in the Prem, but it's not at international level and having the easiest possible route to a semi-final (that we've lost) doesn't change that.

I genuinely came in peace. Maybe it’s clouded by last night which was brilliant, I just think he deserves a chance and
a chance to clear out all the deadwood

Whatever else happens, Youngs is gone. He was relegated to 2rd choice in the RWC, and as soon as JVP is fit again he's automatic first choice for Borthwick.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:44 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:28 pm

el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:18 pm I know this link comes around regularly, and don't know what any of our Sarries fans may have heard, but for months now the Wigan RL lot have been seriously rumouring that Farrell is "coming home".

I'd say Cole, Marler, Vunipola, Youngs, Care, Tuilagi, Daly, May shouldn't be seen again (be a bit more ruthless in the backs - no more slow as shite dinosaur wingers). I'd drop but leave the door open for someone like Sinckler to have a renaissance. For now I'd keep George (lack of options) and even Lawes (arguably our best player in the tournament) if he wants to stay on, with a view to managing the transition to others.

As for Scabbers/the gameplan - getting organised and defensively solid, refusing to play any rugby whatsoever, and dragging teams down to our level might be ok, and fairly hilarious, in world cup knockout games, but it will be a disgrace if that continues game after game, series after series. Fans aren't going to stand for it, and I don't think this banter run has won back much goodwill (which was already at rock bottom) amongst the rugby public. We have to be so much better. Personally I'd still boot him out, whatever the cost to the RFU, but he has simply got to do more than turgid forwards-based kick and chase tight attritional rugby going forward.

Read an article the other day saying that the Lancaster coaching team that bombed in that WC had 3 years together before it and still bombed. This lot have had a few months and got handed a fucked squad.

From an outsider point of view I think you need to back off and give him time

I'm sure you lot will bloody love it if we keep playing zero rugby and struggle to score tries.

The thing with the Lancaster lot is that although they fucked the world cup, they also had an 80% win rate in the 6N, our first win over New Zealand in a decade, dragged us back to being generally competitive with the SH. It understandably over-shadows them, but that coaching team's tenure had a lot more to it than the world cup.

Borthwick doesn't have that behind him. He has a Premiership win with a Leicester team that played incredibly limited rugby. It may be that that's enough in the Prem, but it's not at international level and having the easiest possible route to a semi-final (that we've lost) doesn't change that.

I don't know how much one can reasonably draw from his International management career to date.

He got handed a sack of shit by the RFU, who failed to manage EJ, & keep him to the promises he made along the way.

The result was the when the RFU sacked EJ, they did it at a time when there weren't a lot of qualified people looking for a new gig, & ditto specialist coaches etc.

Borthwick had the players he had, & just took all the Leicester coaches he knew, & went with a limited game plan, that he knew they could play.

What matters now is what changes he makes that he now has a free hand, & four years to build a team. If he doesn't send a number of the coaches back to the club game, or doesn't cut all the dead wood from the squad, & get an attack coach who can use some of the quality backs that England has, then, he definitely isn't up to the job

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:22 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:44 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:28 pm

Read an article the other day saying that the Lancaster coaching team that bombed in that WC had 3 years together before it and still bombed. This lot have had a few months and got handed a fucked squad.

From an outsider point of view I think you need to back off and give him time

I'm sure you lot will bloody love it if we keep playing zero rugby and struggle to score tries.

The thing with the Lancaster lot is that although they fucked the world cup, they also had an 80% win rate in the 6N, our first win over New Zealand in a decade, dragged us back to being generally competitive with the SH. It understandably over-shadows them, but that coaching team's tenure had a lot more to it than the world cup.

Borthwick doesn't have that behind him. He has a Premiership win with a Leicester team that played incredibly limited rugby. It may be that that's enough in the Prem, but it's not at international level and having the easiest possible route to a semi-final (that we've lost) doesn't change that.

I don't know how much one can reasonably draw from his International management career to date.

He got handed a sack of shit by the RFU, who failed to manage EJ, & keep him to the promises he made along the way.

The result was the when the RFU sacked EJ, they did it at a time when there weren't a lot of qualified people looking for a new gig, & ditto specialist coaches etc.

Borthwick had the players he had, & just took all the Leicester coaches he knew, & went with a limited game plan, that he knew they could play.

What matters now is what changes he makes that he now has a free hand, & four years to build a team. If he doesn't send a number of the coaches back to the club game, or doesn't cut all the dead wood from the squad, & get an attack coach who can use some of the quality backs that England has, then, he definitely isn't up to the job

Is Felix Jones not coming in as attack coach?

Defence coach, according to some in the media; with Sinfield leaving.

notfatcat wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:25 pm Defence coach, according to some in the media; with Sinfield leaving.

Ah, cheers. I hadn't seen that. Interesting if that's what happens.

Simian wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:29 pm

notfatcat wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:25 pm Defence coach, according to some in the media; with Sinfield leaving.

Ah, cheers. I hadn't seen that. Interesting if that's what happens.

Well he's a defence coach in SA, but in the past at Munster he started as a skills coach, & when he left there he was the attack coach.

Only saw bits yesterday as I was at a wedding. Hard to get a good feel for a game you’re watching on someone else’s phone whilst being handed baby guinness shots and (successfully) distracting the mother of the bride from the fact that one of my mates was railing her other daughter in the toilets.

Thoughts having now watched it properly:
- first and last word is that was a performance to be proud of. All the shite in the week about worst semi finalists ever (did I imagine we beat one of the others by 20 points a month ago?), all the shite we’ve served up recently and then we pull that out. The pictures of the Boks bench were gorgeous at points.
- Billy Vunipola was the difference between the two sides. Mercer watched that game on his sofa. Remains mystifying.
- Faz was justified in his point to O’Keefe that cost us 10m and 3 points. He seemed put out by being reminded he’d promised to penalise unnecessary pushing and shoving. Still, he’s not 21 and has to be calmer, it remains his biggest weakness as captain. He showed great dignity after the game.
- Lawes, Cole, Marler and May go down with the colours flying, great servants all. Tuilagi? He’s given us other superb days.
- Earl has announced himself at this tournament at the very top of the sport. That he doesn’t have double the number of caps is one of the great crimes of Eddie Jones’ final years.
- scrum pen at the end was bollocks. He was happy to reset for that throughout the game and allowed driving at angles. With all that said, stronger scrums get the benefit, we’ve benefited from that before and our front row depth chart has to be a worry.
- Chessum and Martin has serious potential as a long term top tier second row partnership.
- O’Keefe was played like a fiddle by the saffer water boys, almost like having the same guy ref the same team three times in a tournament and in consecutive weeks is a bad idea. I thought he handled open play and the breakdown pretty well.
- did we have a chance to bury that game? To my mind the moment was Kolbe’s knock on, maybe 1 or 2 times in 10 that just sticks in Daly’s hand. George’s not straight just before the comedy throw was a real chance. We should have had a scrum pen straight after. In hindsight either Faz or Ford had to have a dg shot at about 79:30 when we reach their 10 metre line.
- even knowing how it ended, fuck me that was a horrific watch, like seeing a beloved family pet put down as SA closed back in. We deserved better.

Borthwick inherited a broken aimless team and albeit with some turbulence had us a stroke of luck away from knocking out the world champions and making the final. I don’t think you can ask for much more and he deserves more respect that he’s getting for that.
He’s going to get four years as coach so people should probably just get used to that. He’s clearly got the side fitter, he’s clearly got the team to buy in to his project and he now needs some attacking spark from elsewhere.
We saw tonight a side that can take on anyone, and there are huge opportunities for success in the near future. I think we finally have a ‘foundational moment’ and I genuinely think we’ll compete with the best.

As for the boks, thoroughly dislikable bastards, totally outthought by Borthwick, but they adjusted well, their bench was miles better than ours, their scrum began to manshame, and Pollard has balls of steel. I’d wish them luck in the final but they don’t need it and I wouldn’t mean it.

Oh, and how much noise did England fans generate all tournament? There’s even the return of ‘England England’ chants that were common on childhood visits to Twickenham. Cut down the corporate allocation at home and the atmosphere will be back

Lawes retired from international rugby


He was fantastic on Saturday and what a fantastic career he has had. Seemed to add new things to his game as he aged.

tc27 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:05 pm Lawes retired from international rugby


He was fantastic on Saturday and what a fantastic career he has had. Seemed to add new things to his game as he aged.

Indeed. Best of luck to the bloke, wonder how long he'll carry on at the club level - shows little sign of slowing down.

Lawes has had a very good career. Hopefully a couple of seasons at club level left.

inactionman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:21 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:05 pm Lawes retired from international rugby


He was fantastic on Saturday and what a fantastic career he has had. Seemed to add new things to his game as he aged.

Indeed. Best of luck to the bloke, wonder how long he'll carry on at the club level - shows little sign of slowing down.

He's had a torrid last couple of years with injuries and a fair number across the rest of his career. He can't be that far off calling time on rugby completely.

Been a fantastic servant for club and country and has more than earnt the right to go out on his own terms.