The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

It was inevitable that a negative but brave loss in the semi final against the first good opponent we faced would lead to calls for Borthwick to be re evaluated and that the future is bright.

We had an extremely effective Plan A for this match that got beaten because of how this team has been coached to ignore opportunities, because of selections that were fucking stupid at the time and were proven so, because the captain's discipline was terrible and additionally he panicked at one stage to give away a penalty when he dummied his own team with a kick, and most importantly because we had no Plan B when the scrum situation and South Africa's improved competition in the air made Plan A far riskier.

But hey, we got to the semi final and lost bravely. Let the bunting fly, coach parades for all.

[ASMO]

It was inevitable that a negative but brave loss in the semi final against the first good opponent we faced would lead to calls for Borthwick to be re evaluated and that the future is bright.

We had an extremely effective Plan A for this match that got beaten because of how this team has been coached to ignore opportunities, because of selections that were fucking stupid at the time and were proven so, because the captain's discipline was terrible and additionally he panicked at one stage to give away a penalty when he dummied his own team with a kick, and most importantly because we had no Plan B when the scrum situation and South Africa's improved competition in the air made Plan A far riskier.

But hey, we got to the semi final and lost bravely. Let the bunting fly, coach parades for all.

very much this, it will be used to paper over the chasms (not cracks) that exist in the international setup.

Lots of the old guard are retiring, and those that are not should be forced to (Tuilagi, Billy, i would even say Farrell needs to go too. He has a golden opportunity to pick from a decent crop of young players coming through and shape a team that might even put fear into a few others, what he does in the next 6 months will define him and the England team for the next 4 years....My fear is mr conservative will carry on as he has started.

[tc27]

Telegraph article very clear it will be the conservative approach based around Farrel and anyone else who wont retire.


Wont be surpised if its another couple of shit 6Ns before he abandons the approach and tries something else too late for 2027.

[geordie_6]

It was inevitable that a negative but brave loss in the semi final against the first good opponent we faced would lead to calls for Borthwick to be re evaluated and that the future is bright.

We had an extremely effective Plan A for this match that got beaten because of how this team has been coached to ignore opportunities, because of selections that were fucking stupid at the time and were proven so, because the captain's discipline was terrible and additionally he panicked at one stage to give away a penalty when he dummied his own team with a kick, and most importantly because we had no Plan B when the scrum situation and South Africa's improved competition in the air made Plan A far riskier.

But hey, we got to the semi final and lost bravely. Let the bunting fly, coach parades for all.

It all feels very "Dunkirk spirit". Well done chaps, didn't win but gosh you tried hard.

[tabascoboy]

[inactionman]

Damning with faint praise, Johnny May thinks Borthwick is very, very clever

We’re starting to see what a genius Steve is, in terms of how he’s starting to get this team going. You won’t find a harder working man and his approach to the game is a little bit like Alan Turing.

“If anybody is going to crack the code to rugby, it will be Steve. He’s getting ever closer each week. He’s got an analytical brain, evidence-based, scientific, Spock-like approach.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -world-cup

[SaintK]

Hmmmm!
Anybody know whereabouts?

[sockwithaticket]

That follows hot on the heels of a message to supporters last week reminding us that they are still working away at trying to resurrect the club.

[tabascoboy]

Hmmmm!
Anybody know whereabouts?

Well....

The club is actively engaged with Sevenoaks District Council to identify a suitable location and ensure that the development meets both the needs of the club and the broader community. ...By working with Sevenoaks District Council...

https://www.wasps.co.uk/club-announceme ... t-in-kent/

At what level would they be allowed back into competition?

[SaintK]

Hmmmm!
Anybody know whereabouts?

Well....

The club is actively engaged with Sevenoaks District Council to identify a suitable location and ensure that the development meets both the needs of the club and the broader community. ...By working with Sevenoaks District Council...

https://www.wasps.co.uk/club-announceme ... t-in-kent/

At what level would they be allowed back into competition?

Sevenoaks are in National 2 which is level 4
Richmond, London Scottish and London Welsh all started at level 9 the lowest level in London and the Southj Est after they went bust.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Hmmmm!
Anybody know whereabouts?

From the council website, Pedham Place @ Swanley.

[tabascoboy]

Hmmmm!
Anybody know whereabouts?

From the council website, Pedham Place @ Swanley.

Pretty good for accessibility by rail and road, but Swanley's a bit of a dump mind

They're also talking about using Worcester's ground so not sure how that all works

[tc27]

A top level rugby club in Kent is a great idea. Affluent area with lots of rugby clubs.

Not having the get into SW London to watch a game will appeal to those in the SE commuter belt.

Sevenoaks and Tonbridge will be a bit miffed about being overshadowed but they are never going to compete with a brand like Wasps.

[Margin__Walker]

I guess it's a 'show me the money' job with Wasps. Great if it does work out though

[Paddington Bear]

Feel like Quins have already cornered the market there but good luck to them

[Margin__Walker]

Agree with a lot of what's been said re England. It's important to be measured in any assessment of how they've done and not get too carried away with almost beating a very good team. Ultimately we've had an easy draw and beaten teams ranked below us (including some incredibly laboured wins at that) and lost the first time we played a team ranked above. This was a par performance.

They absolutely got the gameplan right on Saturday, but that game plan isn't going to work on a nice spring day in the 6N. We're going to get handled pretty comfortably making every play a contestable kick and playing wings purely as kick chasers.

What we can build off though is that gainline and maul defence. That was the best I've seen against a top team for a long time from England.

[sefton]

Damning with faint praise, Johnny May thinks Borthwick is very, very clever

We’re starting to see what a genius Steve is, in terms of how he’s starting to get this team going. You won’t find a harder working man and his approach to the game is a little bit like Alan Turing.

“If anybody is going to crack the code to rugby, it will be Steve. He’s getting ever closer each week. He’s got an analytical brain, evidence-based, scientific, Spock-like approach.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -world-cup

I hope he has been drug tested.

[tc27]

Feel like Quins have already cornered the market there but good luck to them

Its not easy getting tickets these days frankly and your doing at least two train journeys to get there for most of the SE.

North Kent particularly has loads of rugby clubs (I know because I have had to go and play against them usually in the depths of winter) and presumably loads of potential fans/match day attendees.

[Paddington Bear]

Feel like Quins have already cornered the market there but good luck to them

Its not easy getting tickets these days frankly and your doing at least two train journeys to get there for most of the SE.

North Kent particularly has loads of rugby clubs (I know because I have had to go and play against them usually in the depths of winter) and presumably loads of potential fans/match day attendees.

I suppose it depends what they’re aiming for in terms of a crowd. Viable championship set up? Sure. Prem? Colour me deeply unconvinced

[JM2K6]

Feel like Quins have already cornered the market there but good luck to them

The way South West London is set up it's a huge pain in the arse to get to Twickenham from a big chunk of Kent. Plenty of territory to grab I reckon. Miles off anything being a reality though.

[Punter15]

Feel like Quins have already cornered the market there but good luck to them

Its not easy getting tickets these days frankly and your doing at least two train journeys to get there for most of the SE.

North Kent particularly has loads of rugby clubs (I know because I have had to go and play against them usually in the depths of winter) and presumably loads of potential fans/match day attendees.

I suppose it depends what they’re aiming for in terms of a crowd. Viable championship set up? Sure. Prem? Colour me deeply unconvinced

Yep. Oxford is a far more sensible location.

[Slick]

A top level rugby club in Kent is a great idea. Affluent area with lots of rugby clubs.

Not having the get into SW London to watch a game will appeal to those in the SE commuter belt.

Sevenoaks and Tonbridge will be a bit miffed about being overshadowed but they are never going to compete with a brand like Wasps.

How happy are those clubs going to be if a Prem (I know) club comes in and starts taking away their local support, sponsors etc. Sounds like a potential disaster

[tabascoboy]

A top level rugby club in Kent is a great idea. Affluent area with lots of rugby clubs.

Not having the get into SW London to watch a game will appeal to those in the SE commuter belt.

Sevenoaks and Tonbridge will be a bit miffed about being overshadowed but they are never going to compete with a brand like Wasps.

How happy are those clubs going to be if a Prem (I know) club comes in and starts taking away their local support, sponsors etc. Sounds like a potential disaster

If the club is going to be based in Swanley then Swanley Rugby Club themselves might not be that happy, they formed only 6 years ago and play in Kent Metropolitan League A. They've been trying to get their own permanent ground though so maybe they could groundshare with their new illustrious interlopers. There are many clubs within a smallish radius with the biggest currently being Blackheath who play at Eltham.

[tc27]

A top level rugby club in Kent is a great idea. Affluent area with lots of rugby clubs.

Not having the get into SW London to watch a game will appeal to those in the SE commuter belt.

Sevenoaks and Tonbridge will be a bit miffed about being overshadowed but they are never going to compete with a brand like Wasps.

How happy are those clubs going to be if a Prem (I know) club comes in and starts taking away their local support, sponsors etc. Sounds like a potential disaster

I doubt there is a massive cross over in potential sponsor's between National 2 and a Prem(?) side with the brand value of Wasps and their own stadium. Whilst both clubs have loyal followings they are not bringing in huge crowds from people not already associated with the club who may go to a Wasps game.

Showing my parochialism here a bit but TJs in particular have spent loads of dosh making themselves a big fish in Kent semi pro rugby - the effect Wasps may have on them is no different to the effect they had on attracting smaller clubs players and sponsors.

[SaintK]

And another Kpoku buggers off to France. Potentially the best of the trio!

Exeter Chiefs summer signing Junior Kpoku has left the Premiership club to join French Top 14 heavyweights Racing 92.
Kpoku, still just 18, is an absolute monster of a teenager, standing at 6ft 8in and weighing in at 18st 5lbs, and was immediately marked out as one to watch when he was signed to Exeter's academy this summer following his time at Finborough School. The second row arrived at Sandy Park having come through Saracens academy and had already represented England U18s. He made his debut off the bench in Chiefs' opening pre-season game against Bristol where he provided fans with a glimpse of his physicality.

[Sandstorm]

And another Kpoku buggers off to France. Potentially the best of the trio!

Exeter Chiefs summer signing Junior Kpoku has left the Premiership club to join French Top 14 heavyweights Racing 92.
Kpoku, still just 18, is an absolute monster of a teenager, standing at 6ft 8in and weighing in at 18st 5lbs, and was immediately marked out as one to watch when he was signed to Exeter's academy this summer following his time at Finborough School. The second row arrived at Sandy Park having come through Saracens academy and had already represented England U18s. He made his debut off the bench in Chiefs' opening pre-season game against Bristol where he provided fans with a glimpse of his physicality.

Here he is celebrating a knock-on in a maul.

https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/players/junior-kpoku

[Slick]

A top level rugby club in Kent is a great idea. Affluent area with lots of rugby clubs.

Not having the get into SW London to watch a game will appeal to those in the SE commuter belt.

Sevenoaks and Tonbridge will be a bit miffed about being overshadowed but they are never going to compete with a brand like Wasps.

How happy are those clubs going to be if a Prem (I know) club comes in and starts taking away their local support, sponsors etc. Sounds like a potential disaster

I doubt there is a massive cross over in potential sponsor's between National 2 and a Prem(?) side with the brand value of Wasps and their own stadium. Whilst both clubs have loyal followings they are not bringing in huge crowds from people not already associated with the club who may go to a Wasps game.

Showing my parochialism here a bit but TJs in particular have spent loads of dosh making themselves a big fish in Kent semi pro rugby - the effect Wasps may have on them is no different to the effect they had on attracting smaller clubs players and sponsors.

You're maybe right, but I was thinking of local companies who might sponsor an advertising board at a local club might now decide to tale clients to a Wasps game etc, things like that can have a big impact at a small club. It all sounds a bit pie in the sky anyway to be honest

[geordie_6]

And another Kpoku buggers off to France. Potentially the best of the trio!

Exeter Chiefs summer signing Junior Kpoku has left the Premiership club to join French Top 14 heavyweights Racing 92.
Kpoku, still just 18, is an absolute monster of a teenager, standing at 6ft 8in and weighing in at 18st 5lbs, and was immediately marked out as one to watch when he was signed to Exeter's academy this summer following his time at Finborough School. The second row arrived at Sandy Park having come through Saracens academy and had already represented England U18s. He made his debut off the bench in Chiefs' opening pre-season game against Bristol where he provided fans with a glimpse of his physicality.

He's only been at Exeter two minutes!

[SaintK]

And another Kpoku buggers off to France. Potentially the best of the trio!

Exeter Chiefs summer signing Junior Kpoku has left the Premiership club to join French Top 14 heavyweights Racing 92.
Kpoku, still just 18, is an absolute monster of a teenager, standing at 6ft 8in and weighing in at 18st 5lbs, and was immediately marked out as one to watch when he was signed to Exeter's academy this summer following his time at Finborough School. The second row arrived at Sandy Park having come through Saracens academy and had already represented England U18s. He made his debut off the bench in Chiefs' opening pre-season game against Bristol where he provided fans with a glimpse of his physicality.

He's only been at Exeter two minutes!

Yep, very odd.
Both his brothers are in France and I think his parents have movedf there as well.

[Margin__Walker]

I know you hear, 'he's the best brother' all the time with the next one off the production line, but he genuinely does look to be based on his U18 performances for England.

Shame to lose him out of the system

[Rhubarb & Custard]

We don't have to lose him, we're choosing to lose him for reasons. Reasons that are part of a constant delivery of clubs that don't challenge in Europe, and an England side that doesn't challenge much in the 6N or WC, a few games aside where we refuse to attack and keep the scores close. So it seems a good idea to stick with the reasons.

[sockwithaticket]

Who are our younger lock prospects at the moment?

Martin delivered evidence of the hype about him in the semi and Chessum's been a good addition this year.

Below them it's Tizard and...? Are Isiekwe and Coles still in the frame?

The other Chessum looks promising, but he's yet to prove himself in the Premiership. Has Groves had much game time for Sale yet?

[Tichtheid]

Do the Kpoku brothers qualify for France by dint of Congolese heritage? Or will they have to wait five years?

[sockwithaticket]

https://archive.ph/sx6xv

Torygraph reporting an academy shake up with a draft element being introduced.

Premiership academies are set for a radical shake-up with the introduction of an NFL-style draft system as part of the new Professional Game Agreement, Telegraph Sport can reveal.
Improving the development of talent has been seen as a key priority by both the Rugby Football Union and Premiership Rugby with a collective recognition that young English players are not getting enough game time.
During their Under-20 Six Nations match this year, France’s squad had made 102 starts in the Top 14 versus England’s eight starts in the Premiership. England Under-20s lost the match 42-7.
With the Premiership losing three teams to insolvency over the past 12 months, there will be a significant redrawing of the academy boundaries as well as the introduction of a draft-style system to ensure a more equitable distribution of the best young players around the 10 teams and in future to clubs in the proposed second tier Premiership 2.

Each team would be allowed to keep a certain number of players from each year group of their own academy intake and the remainder would be allocated via a form of draft, although the precise mechanism has yet to be decided. In the NFL, the worst team from the previous season gets the first pick of that year’s best college players and it has grown into one of the biggest spectacles of the American sporting calendar.
The RFU would also have a more direct role in individual players’ development programmes and although Premiership clubs would still retain control of all playing decisions.

Part of the issue within the current model is in the inequitable distribution of talent among the clubs, who are only allowed to recruit players to their academy from within set geographical boundaries. As Pat Lam, the Bristol Bears director of rugby, has repeatedly pointed out, their patch only includes just two of the 100 leading rugby schools while Harlequins have more than 20 within their catchment area.

“I can tell you now that I’ve been here nearly six years, the system is flawed for young players,” Lam said. “When you look and you ask the question, and I used to always say this when I was back in New Zealand and coaching in Ireland, ‘how is the country that has the most resources, financially and player-wise, not the No1 rugby nation in the world?’ And the problem that you’ve got is that it’s the only country that has a system that has boundaries on young players which is, to me, the biggest problem you’ve got.”

Under the new system, if a club had three promising locks on their books they may only be able to retain two and the third would be allocated to a team short of cover in the second row to provide greater playing opportunities. The Rugby Players’ Association are also lobbying to ensure there is a minimum wage for academy players and they would be compensated for moving across the country.
“We can’t just continue with clubs having 40 academy players and teams just hoovering up anyone they can, hoping they find a gem,” a source close to the negotiations said. “We need to make it more elite than that. At the same time, we don’t want teams just hoarding the best talent for the sake of it.”

[SaintK]

Squad for 3/4 play off
Steward on the wing
No game time at all for Malins and Walker
15 Marcus Smith, 14 Freddie Steward, 13 Joe Marchant, 12 Manu Tuilagi, 11 Henry Arundell, 10 Owen Farrell (c), 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Ben Earl, 7 Sam Underhill, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Ollie Chessum, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Will Stuart, 2 Theo Dan, 1 Ellis Genge
Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Bevan Rodd, 18 Dan Cole, 19 David Ribbans, 20 Lewis Ludlam, 21 Danny Care, 22 George Ford, 23 Ollie Lawrence

[inactionman]

Squad for 3/4 play off
Steward on the wing
No game time at all for Malins and Walker
15 Marcus Smith, 14 Freddie Steward, 13 Joe Marchant, 12 Manu Tuilagi, 11 Henry Arundell, 10 Owen Farrell (c), 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Ben Earl, 7 Sam Underhill, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Ollie Chessum, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Will Stuart, 2 Theo Dan, 1 Ellis Genge
Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Bevan Rodd, 18 Dan Cole, 19 David Ribbans, 20 Lewis Ludlam, 21 Danny Care, 22 George Ford, 23 Ollie Lawrence

That is a notably ball-stealing back row.

Ben Youngs' swansong, despite all the hate that really is some international career.

[Raggs]

Squad for 3/4 play off
Steward on the wing
No game time at all for Malins and Walker
15 Marcus Smith, 14 Freddie Steward, 13 Joe Marchant, 12 Manu Tuilagi, 11 Henry Arundell, 10 Owen Farrell (c), 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Ben Earl, 7 Sam Underhill, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Ollie Chessum, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Will Stuart, 2 Theo Dan, 1 Ellis Genge
Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Bevan Rodd, 18 Dan Cole, 19 David Ribbans, 20 Lewis Ludlam, 21 Danny Care, 22 George Ford, 23 Ollie Lawrence

George Ford pretty much wins us the single hardest game we faced up until this point (excluding SA), despite being a man down, and gets rewarded with being benched for all the knockout games, doesn't get on for Fiji, and gets 2 minutes against South Africa. I don't think Farrell has been bad by any means (though he could have kept his head a bit more against SA), but Ford deserved much better.

[Paddington Bear]

Why play Marchant if he’s off to France?

Agree re Youngs. I’ve given him plenty of stick but this should be a nice send off for him. He’s never lacked for effort

[ASMO]

Why play Marchant if he’s off to France?

Agree re Youngs. I’ve given him plenty of stick but this should be a nice send off for him. He’s never lacked for effort

With Farrell and Youngs, the centres and wings are not gonna see much ball anyway.

[SaintK]

Why play Marchant if he’s off to France?

Agree re Youngs. I’ve given him plenty of stick but this should be a nice send off for him. He’s never lacked for effort

With Farrell and Youngs, the centres and wings are not gonna see much ball anyway.