NPR

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:23 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:21 am And yet we've seen howlers from Daly and May in defence, we've seen Steward defend like a statue. So issues in defence are only issues in defence if they're the right (or wrong) sort of issue, would seem the issue

We have, but the one where he seems to give up the chase is not something I'd expect to see from the likes of May etc.

I do think he should have been used, but at least we can look at this and recognise he's not perfect, so it's not completely open and shut.

We've seen Daly literally turn his back on an attack, just giving up entirely.

It's hardly all Arundell, we've got problems with handling, decision making, carrying into contact, ball presentation, support, speed of play (or lack thereof), width and shape of attack, putting pace/width on the game. So far our best solution as with the SA or group game Vs Argentina has been to ignore all that, and Arundell does perhaps lack the best contribution to wanting to do nothing.

One thing we do get with Arundell, or should, is given how easily we get far too narrow in defence you've suddenly got a more effective scramble because he is simply faster

It's really odd.

May's very good defensively at least these days, albeit he's gone now. Defending the outside channels is hard though and Daly and Steward have frequently been turned inside out. Steward especially has looked incredibly frail defensively. His 6N performance against France comes to mind as something worse than I've ever seen from Arundell. Sure, there's improvement to be had, but It just seems like an easy way for people to dismiss Arundell and he does seem to be held to a higher standard than others.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:16 am It's really odd.

May's very good defensively at least these days, albeit he's gone now. Defending the outside channels is hard though and Daly and Steward have frequently been turned inside out. Steward especially has looked incredibly frail defensively. His 6N performance against France comes to mind as something worse than I've ever seen from Arundell. Sure, there's improvement to be had, but It just seems like an easy way for people to dismiss Arundell and he does seem to be held to a higher standard than others.

"He can't tackle" is the default criticism of all creative players by England fans who are determined that yeomanlike metronomy and a big boot are the apex characteristics of a world class ten. We're unlucky in that we have a head coach who believes the data shows that there is no room for flair in the international game (or at least not until 78 minutes into a semi final when you're desperately chasing the game), so it just compounds those excuses.

Edit: it also means that there's a double standard when the supposed defensive stalwarts have absolute howlers. I remember Charlie Hodgson chasing a player down after a monstrous defensive fuck up by Tindall, which got studiously ignored.

I think in general wingers get a tough time about defence, I saw Kolbe get sat on his arse by Chris Harris in the Lions series, LRZ is, to use the technical term, shite defensively, we have nightmares about Big Duhan and his positioning

This was supposed to happen, when the game went pro the defence was the first thing to sort out and we took on League-style lines, over time the attacking tactics have become more sophisticated and more difficult to deal with. "He's very strong defensively" is often a euphemism for not being Penaud in attack.

Personally, I'd pick Arundell, improve the defensive system the best you can, but use his skills in attack, he's a rare talent.

Brazil wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:21 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:16 am It's really odd.

May's very good defensively at least these days, albeit he's gone now. Defending the outside channels is hard though and Daly and Steward have frequently been turned inside out. Steward especially has looked incredibly frail defensively. His 6N performance against France comes to mind as something worse than I've ever seen from Arundell. Sure, there's improvement to be had, but It just seems like an easy way for people to dismiss Arundell and he does seem to be held to a higher standard than others.

"He can't tackle" is the default criticism of all creative players by England fans who are determined that yeomanlike metronomy and a big boot are the apex characteristics of a world class ten. We're unlucky in that we have a head coach who believes the data shows that there is no room for flair in the international game (or at least not until 78 minutes into a semi final when you're desperately chasing the game), so it just compounds those excuses.

Edit: it also means that there's a double standard when the supposed defensive stalwarts have absolute howlers. I remember Charlie Hodgson chasing a player down after a monstrous defensive fuck up by Tindall, which got studiously ignored.

"It's all part of the system" as Farrell flaps high and misses or cedes ground, yet "he's a defensive liability" when Ford makes his tackle yet gets pushed backwards in the process...

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:37 am

Brazil wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:21 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:16 am It's really odd.

May's very good defensively at least these days, albeit he's gone now. Defending the outside channels is hard though and Daly and Steward have frequently been turned inside out. Steward especially has looked incredibly frail defensively. His 6N performance against France comes to mind as something worse than I've ever seen from Arundell. Sure, there's improvement to be had, but It just seems like an easy way for people to dismiss Arundell and he does seem to be held to a higher standard than others.

"He can't tackle" is the default criticism of all creative players by England fans who are determined that yeomanlike metronomy and a big boot are the apex characteristics of a world class ten. We're unlucky in that we have a head coach who believes the data shows that there is no room for flair in the international game (or at least not until 78 minutes into a semi final when you're desperately chasing the game), so it just compounds those excuses.

Edit: it also means that there's a double standard when the supposed defensive stalwarts have absolute howlers. I remember Charlie Hodgson chasing a player down after a monstrous defensive fuck up by Tindall, which got studiously ignored.

"It's all part of the system" as Farrell flaps high and misses or cedes ground, yet "he's a defensive liability" when Ford makes his tackle yet gets pushed backwards in the process...

See also: Manu charging out of the line to shoulder charge somebody, fucking it up colossally, and leaving the outside backs hanging.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:26 am I think in general wingers get a tough time about defence, I saw Kolbe get sat on his arse by Chris Harris in the Lions series, LRZ is, to use the technical term, shite defensively, we have nightmares about Big Duhan and his positioning

This was supposed to happen, when the game went pro the defence was the first thing to sort out and we took on League-style lines, over time the attacking tactics have become more sophisticated and more difficult to deal with. "He's very strong defensively" is often a euphemism for not being Penaud in attack.

Personally, I'd pick Arundell, improve the defensive system the best you can, but use his skills in attack, he's a rare talent.

There's also the 'survivor fallacy' of defence. If you are too slow to be anywhere near a player making a break, you mostly get a free pass whereas the fast folk who at least get there, then can't make a tackle get marked down.

I'd like a stat of 'nowhere near the tackle when they should have been' to balance this out

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:26 am I think in general wingers get a tough time about defence, I saw Kolbe get sat on his arse by Chris Harris in the Lions series, LRZ is, to use the technical term, shite defensively, we have nightmares about Big Duhan and his positioning

This was supposed to happen, when the game went pro the defence was the first thing to sort out and we took on League-style lines, over time the attacking tactics have become more sophisticated and more difficult to deal with. "He's very strong defensively" is often a euphemism for not being Penaud in attack.

Personally, I'd pick Arundell, improve the defensive system the best you can, but use his skills in attack, he's a rare talent.

It can also be a bit like lineouts where there are so many moving parts that can go wrong but the Hooker always gets the blame. There are very few blatantly missed tackles in international rugby but the guy who is screwed by other parts of the defensive system not working gets the blame.

Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

duke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 am

duke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.

In his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.

The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 am

duke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.

In his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.

The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.

That cleanout is up there with the scrummaging technique for cackhandedness

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 am

duke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.

In his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.

The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.

And even if they did they weren't getting a pass

duke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

I think that's the incident Finn was trying to get the Ref to review.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:55 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:26 am I think in general wingers get a tough time about defence, I saw Kolbe get sat on his arse by Chris Harris in the Lions series, LRZ is, to use the technical term, shite defensively, we have nightmares about Big Duhan and his positioning

This was supposed to happen, when the game went pro the defence was the first thing to sort out and we took on League-style lines, over time the attacking tactics have become more sophisticated and more difficult to deal with. "He's very strong defensively" is often a euphemism for not being Penaud in attack.

Personally, I'd pick Arundell, improve the defensive system the best you can, but use his skills in attack, he's a rare talent.

There's also the 'survivor fallacy' of defence. If you are too slow to be anywhere near a player making a break, you mostly get a free pass whereas the fast folk who at least get there, then can't make a tackle get marked down.

I'd like a stat of 'nowhere near the tackle when they should have been' to balance this out

Nowell and Steward sweating nervously at the prospect...

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 am

duke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.

In his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.

The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.

For as long as I can remember England have been crap at supporting bog standard, straight line breaks. May's mazy runs are just too much for our players to compute.

Simian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:09 am

duke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

I think that's the incident Finn was trying to get the Ref to review.

TMO/Ref completely asleep at the wheel on that one.

You've got players complaining to ref about the clean out and a bloke on the floor getting treatment for a head injury and you don't bother to look at what caused it.

If someone showed you footage of Olivier Merle doing that you'd think yep, that's about right

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:33 am

Simian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:09 am

duke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

I think that's the incident Finn was trying to get the Ref to review.

TMO/Ref completely asleep at the wheel on that one.

You've got players complaining to ref about the clean out and a bloke on the floor getting treatment for a head injury and you don't bother to look at what caused it.

Defo red card for me!

dpedin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:03 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:33 am

Simian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:09 am

I think that's the incident Finn was trying to get the Ref to review.

TMO/Ref completely asleep at the wheel on that one.

You've got players complaining to ref about the clean out and a bloke on the floor getting treatment for a head injury and you don't bother to look at what caused it.

Defo red card for me!

For sure. A bad one too for me. Will no doubt end up mid range, because you seem to have to kill someone to get into the next bracket, but it was very reckless/dangerous.

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 am

duke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A

I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.

In his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.

The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.

He was known on another bored as Jonny Sideways

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:25 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 am

I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.

In his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.

The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.

He was known on another bored as Jonny Sideways

Did another one against Bath last Friday night. FRom one touchline to the other and made minus 10 meters

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:12 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 am

I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.

In his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.

The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.

For as long as I can remember England have been crap at supporting bog standard, straight line breaks.

Indeed, it seems if someone makes a break everyone else stands around either shocked or offering applause at this amazing new tactic.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:14 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:03 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:33 am

TMO/Ref completely asleep at the wheel on that one.

You've got players complaining to ref about the clean out and a bloke on the floor getting treatment for a head injury and you don't bother to look at what caused it.

Defo red card for me!

For sure. A bad one too for me. Will no doubt end up mid range, because you seem to have to kill someone to get into the next bracket, but it was very reckless/dangerous.

3 games ban for May down to 2 if he attends tackle school! As expected!

*Clear out school

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:43 pm *Clear out school

Lawrence having a great opening quarter in the Bath - Bris game.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:10 pm Lawrence having a great opening quarter in the Bath - Bris game.

Yep looking very good
Enjoyable match so far given the weather

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:48 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:10 pm Lawrence having a great opening quarter in the Bath - Bris game.

Yep looking very good
Enjoyable match so far given the weather

Shows what a difference mindset can have. Both teams want to play.

O'connor on the other hand...having a proper Betty Crocker

LenCohen wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:57 pm O'connor on the other hand...having a proper Betty Crocker

He's fallen off massively. It was only a couple of seasons ago that he looked good enough to maybe get a run with England.

Yeh he looked pretty classy back then. Actually got hooked after 50 last night as he was singlehandedly keeping bath in the lead

Every fucking time they have two former Leicester players commentating on a Tigers v Saints match.

Sorry to disrupt the flow, but a thing popped up on my TikTok today that was a compilation of Marler over the top cheering at kinda random things while playing saracens and I now really like him

Edit: and it reminded me of the time he squirted water in Haskel’s face

I see rumours on social media of another club not paying wages on time

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:23 pm I see rumours on social media of another club not paying wages on time

Exeter apparently. A day late due to an admin error.

Hopefully Leicester and Saints won't be paying their players after this shitfest.

Given each club's start to the season, I'm pretty disappointed in Saints so far.

They've been poor, Leicester dragging them down to their level I guess.

That's much better. Good to do while a man down, too.