You can always quibble a bit, but I don’t think Borthwick’s major issue is selection.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:04 pm
by petej
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:00 pm
You can always quibble a bit, but I don’t think Borthwick’s major issue is selection.
The obvious shit selections are Slade and Daly. I don't think changing the selection moves the needle that much. With the defence there is a shift that will take time and I can accept that. The selection of Borthwick and Wigglesworth as the coaches was a mistake if you don't want play very conservative negative rugby. I think Borthwick will be a more successful England coach if he leans into his identity and what he is good at which is boring pragmatic rugby.
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:49 am
Will Stuart is 27 and probably quite a bit better than the next best younger player. Care is a million years old but he is only starting due to injuries and other issues with availability. Ford was excellent at the world cup and despite a rough season is probably still England's best all round 10, Farrell is retired and Marcus Smith is injured. Fin Smith is a talented kid with little experience who did not press his case off the bench. George and Dan arguably represent the two best hookers in the country.
You're confusing not rating these guys with facts again
No - not really! As I said pick one or two experienced key players to support the youngsters and then pick the guys who need the experience who will take you forward the next 5+ years. England decided to just fill the team with guys who closer to the end of their careers than at the beginning of it and who haven't exactly set the heather on fire in the last couple of years. If you are starting Care then why not pair him with Smith and hope Care can guide him through and get experience in a big test match? Ditto why start George when Dan shows far more energy, enthusiasm and impact at hooker? Why start Daly at wing when you have en exciting talent like Fey-Waboso sitting on the bench? At some point Borthwick will need to throw these young guys in and get the experience at test level they need.
I suppose the key fact, as that is what you want to focus on, is that England lost to a Scotland team who never really clicked on the day but had enough to win fairly comfortably. Apart from the first 10-15 mins England were pretty toothless in attack and the backs in particular were close to awful. This would suggest to me that for Borthwick to keep doing the same thing by picking these guys isn't working? Borthwick needs to be brave, say thanks very much to the older guys and throw in a few more of the talented youngsters and let them get experience and play rugby!
Fin Smith looks like he would've made things much worse had he started. George starts because he is a good all round player, hugely experienced, and by far the best lineout thrower we have. Daly, well, no one is going to defend that.
We can all argue about selection but the fact is that regardless of the selection, what is happening on the pitch is substandard. And there's zero hope or expectation that Borthwick and Wigglesworth are coaches who can produce an international standard attacking team.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2024 9:44 am
by JM2K6
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 5:19 pm
Still think Freeman moving inside in at 13 makes sense. And putting some wingers with real pace in place makes sense.
Yup. I don't get why we've picked him purely as a wing when his form that earned the callup is from playing 13.
Lawrence is also a 13 but we need him at 12, so...
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:44 pm
by Paddington Bear
Can’t pretend a Wigglesworth run attack sparks any joy, but how on earth can anyone create an attack that causes any issues at all if you’re going to make 20-25 handling errors in a game? Assuming ball in play time of just under 40 minutes, we drop the ball nearly every two minutes! Assume 50/50 possession and we drop the ball every 60 seconds, maybe less. Hopeless
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2024 7:23 pm
by JM2K6
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:44 pm
Can’t pretend a Wigglesworth run attack sparks any joy, but how on earth can anyone create an attack that causes any issues at all if you’re going to make 20-25 handling errors in a game? Assuming ball in play time of just under 40 minutes, we drop the ball nearly every two minutes! Assume 50/50 possession and we drop the ball every 60 seconds, maybe less. Hopeless
Some days are like that. But it's much harder to get a team to click in attack when you've spent a year coaching them the opposite (and have practically no relevant coaching expertise anyway) but still expect them to attack at full pace.
A bunch of the errors were inexplicable and I don't expect to see that many again. I don't remember us making that many handling errors in the first two games of shambling incoherent bullshit, so I'm not keen on putting the blame just on them
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2024 11:44 am
by inactionman
Geech is taking a job as consultant director of rugby at Doncaster.
He's had a marvellous coaching career, but one of his earlier similar director consultancy gigs at Bath didn't end so marvellously.
He must be pushing 80, hope he doesn't end up the Roy Hodgson of rugby.
Excellent coach and summariser in his heyday but hasn't had a hands on experience for years.
Joe Ford took over from Steve Boden who unexpectedly resigned last week after playing over 200 games for Doncaster and coaching them for the past two seasons
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2024 4:00 pm
by SaintK
My club's away match off due to waterlogged pitch and no local club matches in the area due to same
No rugby on TV
Weather too shitty to go for a walk to the pub
Wife's pissed of that I'm here spoiling her usual quiet Saturday afternoon on her own
Oh well!!
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:44 pm
Can’t pretend a Wigglesworth run attack sparks any joy, but how on earth can anyone create an attack that causes any issues at all if you’re going to make 20-25 handling errors in a game? Assuming ball in play time of just under 40 minutes, we drop the ball nearly every two minutes! Assume 50/50 possession and we drop the ball every 60 seconds, maybe less. Hopeless
Some days are like that. But it's much harder to get a team to click in attack when you've spent a year coaching them the opposite (and have practically no relevant coaching expertise anyway) but still expect them to attack at full pace.
A bunch of the errors were inexplicable and I don't expect to see that many again. I don't remember us making that many handling errors in the first two games of shambling incoherent bullshit, so I'm not keen on putting the blame just on them
Sometimes it’s good for the players to have a a couple of sessions without any coaches present.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:45 am
by Deveron Boy
The walrus’s solution for the Ireland game; being back Manu and Billy
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:00 am
by dpedin
Deveron Boy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:45 am
The walrus’s solution for the Ireland game; being back Manu and Billy
That'll fix things!!!!
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:03 am
by inactionman
Deveron Boy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:45 am
The walrus’s solution for the Ireland game; being back Manu and Billy
He seems to be stuck in some 2015 time-warp. Or he's drunk. Maybe he's been drunk since 2015.
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:44 pm
Can’t pretend a Wigglesworth run attack sparks any joy, but how on earth can anyone create an attack that causes any issues at all if you’re going to make 20-25 handling errors in a game? Assuming ball in play time of just under 40 minutes, we drop the ball nearly every two minutes! Assume 50/50 possession and we drop the ball every 60 seconds, maybe less. Hopeless
Some days are like that. But it's much harder to get a team to click in attack when you've spent a year coaching them the opposite (and have practically no relevant coaching expertise anyway) but still expect them to attack at full pace.
A bunch of the errors were inexplicable and I don't expect to see that many again. I don't remember us making that many handling errors in the first two games of shambling incoherent bullshit, so I'm not keen on putting the blame just on them
Sometimes it’s good for the players to have a a couple of sessions without any coaches present.
A couple of sessions or seasons?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:43 am
by sockwithaticket
Unfortunately, I wouldn't bet against Manu actually being drafted back in. He is in the squad after all and coaches love talking him up despite having done nothing of note since 2019.
Some days are like that. But it's much harder to get a team to click in attack when you've spent a year coaching them the opposite (and have practically no relevant coaching expertise anyway) but still expect them to attack at full pace.
A bunch of the errors were inexplicable and I don't expect to see that many again. I don't remember us making that many handling errors in the first two games of shambling incoherent bullshit, so I'm not keen on putting the blame just on them
Sometimes it’s good for the players to have a a couple of sessions without any coaches present.
A couple of sessions or seasons?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:42 am
by SaintK
England’s misfiring attack is not being prioritised in training with Telegraph Sport learning that one prominent back touched the ball just once in a particular session.
The revelation comes as the country’s most-capped male player Ben Youngs has questioned how many attacking reps England’s players are undertaking in training. In their 30-21 defeat by Scotland, England committed 25 handling errors and 22 turnovers. With fixtures to come at home to Ireland and away to France, England have scored just six tries in this Six Nations.
Telegraph Sport understands that there is growing frustration within parts of the camp that far more time is devoted to building the hyper-aggressive blitz defence under Felix Jones than honing the attack under Richard Wigglesworth. That lack of focus stands in stark contrast to how the most innovative attacks in the Premiership operate.
Under Sam Vesty at Northampton, every player would be expected to have 150 ‘touches’ of a variety of different balls per session. Similarly at Bath, for example, backs would be expected to pass the ball at least 100 times each and forwards 50 times. Several sources confirmed that one English back, who has featured in the tournament, only got one touch during a session.
England’s misfiring attack is not being prioritised in training with Telegraph Sport learning that one prominent back touched the ball just once in a particular session.
The revelation comes as the country’s most-capped male player Ben Youngs has questioned how many attacking reps England’s players are undertaking in training. In their 30-21 defeat by Scotland, England committed 25 handling errors and 22 turnovers. With fixtures to come at home to Ireland and away to France, England have scored just six tries in this Six Nations.
Telegraph Sport understands that there is growing frustration within parts of the camp that far more time is devoted to building the hyper-aggressive blitz defence under Felix Jones than honing the attack under Richard Wigglesworth. That lack of focus stands in stark contrast to how the most innovative attacks in the Premiership operate.
Under Sam Vesty at Northampton, every player would be expected to have 150 ‘touches’ of a variety of different balls per session. Similarly at Bath, for example, backs would be expected to pass the ball at least 100 times each and forwards 50 times. Several sources confirmed that one English back, who has featured in the tournament, only got one touch during a session.
I'm not that concerned with a back touching the ball once if the session was focused upon defensive positioning, that seems a bit alarmist. They're essentially trying to fast-track a new defensive approach so not surprised there's sessions that focus on this exclusively.
I'd be very concerned if all they're doing is looking at defensive positioning. We definitely got sprung too easily on a few occasions, but even these were mostly off turnovers after we kept fecking it up in attack. I can't believe we'll be as clumsy and inaccurate in basics again, which was the principal cause of our problems over a fair few recent games, but despite that I'd like to think they're looking at attacking structure and pattern.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 4:35 pm
by Sandstorm
inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:29 pm
I can't believe we'll be as clumsy and inaccurate in basics again, which was the principal cause of our problems over a fair few recent games......
inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:29 pm
I can't believe we'll be as clumsy and inaccurate in basics again, which was the principal cause of our problems over a fair few recent games......
Recent you say?
Prexactly
Sadly not all handling errors fall at young Ben Youngs' feet/hands.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:54 am
by SaintK
Brantingham confirmed to Sarries in the summer. Excellent potential.
Saracens have signed prop Phil Brantingham from Newcastle Falcons.
The 22-year-old loosehead, who has represented England at Under-20s level, will make the move in the summer.
Brantingham made his debut in a 32-22 defeat by Gloucester in January 2022 and has 25 appearances to his name.
"We have tracked Phil for the last couple of years and we are very much looking forward to welcoming him," Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall told the club website.
If you look across the globe, the most popular and successful sports teams and organisations have clear visual identities, which are both immediately recognisable and highly memorable.
Can't say that I see Premiership club logos as part of the problem with popularity or success tbh.
In fact it seems the opposite. Going from a heraldic design to something more 'modern', hasn't exactly lifted Gloucester out of the doldrums and Bristol are down there with them.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:55 am
by Paddington Bear
Easy thing to stick on a cv for the people involved. I remember our SU president rebranding the bar and cafe on campus simply so he could show something interesting on grad scheme interviews. He spent IIRC £50k and it got changed back the year after. Stuck with me ever since.
As for ‘brand awareness’, prem rugby is a niche product. No one isn’t following it because of the logo
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 12:22 pm
by Tichtheid
Despite having no connection to them whatsoever I got pissed off with Brighton Football Club changing their name to Brighton Blues. They predated codification and the RFU, having formed in 1868. However having looked them up now they have gone for Brighton Football Club (RFU)
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 12:51 pm
by SaintK
Hadn't realised Collier was off to France at the end of the season
Titi Lamositele is heading to Harlequins to replace Will Collier
Views on Collier? Not quite international standard, or unfairly ignored? He always seemed solid to me, and MArler specifically mentioned him as someone who should have got more caps. Although that could just be Marler playing silly buggers.
(It might just be no-one wanted two quins props in the team)
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:53 pm
by Hal Jordan
He's 32, whatever England chances he had are gone and he's had a lot of injuries, so Quins get him off the books and he gets a nice pension boost.
Edit: He should have had a few more caps, at least.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:00 pm
by sockwithaticket
He's probably been unfairly overlooked at moments in his career because we were fixated on dynamic props rather than nuts and bolts set piece types, but he's also been injured a lot and thus unavailable when there were opportunities.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:24 pm
by SaintK
Sounds like Fin Smith has picked up a calf injury in training and out of Ireland match!
As you were then I suspect with Ford starting and Smith M on the bench
Views on Collier? Not quite international standard, or unfairly ignored? He always seemed solid to me, and MArler specifically mentioned him as someone who should have got more caps. Although that could just be Marler playing silly buggers.
(It might just be no-one wanted two quins props in the team)
Along with Cole, consistently huge at the set piece. Unlike Cole, didn't have the breakdown nous or the durability. A shame, he is a serious scrummager.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:24 pm
by JM2K6
SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:24 pm
Sounds like Fin Smith has picked up a calf injury in training and out of Ireland match!
As you were then I suspect with Ford starting and Smith M on the bench
Presumably from kicking rather than running...
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:56 am
by Hal Jordan
Got to stick the the one Smith rule, so tag team injuries is a simple way of keeping everything in order.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 12:15 pm
by inactionman
I'm actually quite liking what Borthwick has to say - it veers into management-speak but the sentiment is exactly right.
"Post the Scotland game, there was evidence that the weight of the shirt was on the players," Borthwick added.
"I believe we need to create a supportive environment. Everybody involved with English rugby is under incredible scrutiny. That's just the way it is.
"There's incredible expectation and I'd rather be involved in a team where there is expectation upon it than not.
"But with that I want to make sure that young players are coming into a supportive environment. I want to see their point of difference on the grass.
"Mistakes are going to happen and we are understanding of that, but we don't want to repeat mistakes. We have got to learn fast.
"The team went through a difficult experience at Murrayfield, reviewed it properly and then addressed it on the training field.
"The players weren't perfect against Ireland, they made mistakes, but at Murrayfield I thought we made a mistake and then went into ourselves, played a little bit small.
"Against Ireland they made errors and got into the next battle. If there is anything I can encourage the players to do, it is go into the next battle."
We've had this issue in both England cricket and football - players felt insecure and uncomfortable, and worried more about not making errors and ended up playing for themselves.
People like Andrew Strauss (and many before and after him) and now Gareth Southgate have addressed this, and made the national team a pleasant place to play and where players are backed - although it did need McCullum and Stokes to reset this a bit.
After Eddie, I'd think this needs to be done for rugby. Eddie reducing players like Malins to tears is simply not what should happen, at any level.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:00 pm
by Paddington Bear
Agree with that largely. As much as they crow when we win, truth is that however much they deny it our media love to see us lose. It’s quite unique.
I’m not exactly Jonny Bairstow’s strongest soldier, but him calling out the media for this was a major factor in our cricket world cup win IMO.
This is exacerbated in rugby, as most of our biggest games each year come in largely unreciprocated rivalries, and you go from playing in front of maybe 10,000 and a small tv audience, lucky to get half a page in the paper, to being part of a genuine national event. Psychologically it has to be challenging, one week realistically no one cares, the next there’s nowhere to hide.
The hope has to be the Scotland game becomes a turning point for the side. I don’t think we have to win Saturday to show we’ve properly turned the corner, but we certainly need another big performance. We still made a number of elementary errors Saturday and I’m convinced this side has a higher ceiling. When you look at our run of games coming up, we’ll need to see it.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 4:50 pm
by Ovals
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:00 pm
Agree with that largely. As much as they crow when we win, truth is that however much they deny it our media love to see us lose. It’s quite unique.
I’m not exactly Jonny Bairstow’s strongest soldier, but him calling out the media for this was a major factor in our cricket world cup win IMO.
This is exacerbated in rugby, as most of our biggest games each year come in largely unreciprocated rivalries, and you go from playing in front of maybe 10,000 and a small tv audience, lucky to get half a page in the paper, to being part of a genuine national event. Psychologically it has to be challenging, one week realistically no one cares, the next there’s nowhere to hide.
The hope has to be the Scotland game becomes a turning point for the side. I don’t think we have to win Saturday to show we’ve properly turned the corner, but we certainly need another big performance. We still made a number of elementary errors Saturday and I’m convinced this side has a higher ceiling. When you look at our run of games coming up, we’ll need to see it.
Agree with all of that. Hopefully we'll see the same starting XV to give those combinations a chance to build on Saturday's performance. There'll be a temptation to start Marcus but I'd hold off on that for this game - bring him on earlier if it isn't working as well.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:10 am
by Paddington Bear
Yeah I thought Ford played very well ball in hand. Kicking another story of course but that happens
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:25 am
by Oxbow
Vaguely rugby-related, apparently Harry Mallinder is getting a lot of love from NFL teams because of his 'massive leg'. He's had a shitty time with injuries over the years so good luck to the fella.
Oxbow wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:25 am
Vaguely rugby-related, apparently Harry Mallinder is getting a lot of love from NFL teams because of his 'massive leg'. He's had a shitty time with injuries over the years so good luck to the fella.
