The Official English Rugby Thread

[Paddington Bear]

It’s a good post and yes clearly there was something significant that changed after the Scotland loss. Says plenty good about Borthwick’s character that not only does he run an environment where this can happen, he clearly accepted that they were right, and the change is obvious.

On selection - Daly you’d guess is likely coming up to his final caps. He was picked for kick recovery, if we’re going to be getting wingers the ball more often now what’s his role? Furbank would have played 80 had he not been injured so whilst I agree Smith isn’t a 15 I don’t think it was the intention.

I worry a little about the NZ away tests, but all I’ve wanted is to feel a little bit more again watching England. I was buzzing off the walls after the Ireland game and after the France game switched off the tv as the ball went out and let out a few fucks in the loo. There’s a very talented young core to this side, we could have a few fun years with it

[Margin__Walker]

I'm definitely encouraged. Signs of progress and more importantly I've enjoyed watching England for the first time in a long time in the games against Ireland and France. There was clearly a change of approach for whatever reason and hopefully we see more of the same from a playing philosophy point of view. Clearly lots to work on and a few players to be put out to pasture, but there's something on the horizon.

Watching us against France reminded me of watching LI. Was like slipping into a pair of comfy slippers. Fairly mobile and threatening with the ball, but ripe for conceding long range tries off catastrophic turnovers.

[inactionman]

I found it all very encouraging.

I'm less worried about the defensive lapses when we consider we're trying a different defensive approach, but the last few games have shown a bit of the team's attacking potential which has been glaringly and alarmingly absent for a while.

I do like the way Borthwick is going about this. I appreciate Ford is saying the players made the hard arguments but Borthwick has created an environment where that can happen. c.f. Eddie, where he'd temper tantrum. I'd also not be that surprised if Borthwick didn't have half an eye on letting the players come to that conclusion themselves, knowing that this is what was required. Done well, this empowerment is itself a very powerful management technique - the players can really buy into an approach that they themselves have advocated.

(I may, however, be reading too much into all this and have been subject to too many management fads)

Any which way, it's so much better to finish a series on a good note - even over the course of a few weeks we've seen significant strides.

[Paddington Bear]

Many here may not have loved Borthwick as Sarries skipper, but it’s pretty clear from that he is capable of very effective man-management/leadership.

[Monk]

Can’t pretend a Wigglesworth run attack sparks any joy, but how on earth can anyone create an attack that causes any issues at all if you’re going to make 20-25 handling errors in a game? Assuming ball in play time of just under 40 minutes, we drop the ball nearly every two minutes! Assume 50/50 possession and we drop the ball every 60 seconds, maybe less. Hopeless

Some days are like that. But it's much harder to get a team to click in attack when you've spent a year coaching them the opposite (and have practically no relevant coaching expertise anyway) but still expect them to attack at full pace.

A bunch of the errors were inexplicable and I don't expect to see that many again. I don't remember us making that many handling errors in the first two games of shambling incoherent bullshit, so I'm not keen on putting the blame just on them

Sometimes it’s good for the players to have a a couple of sessions without any coaches present.

Borthwick quite clearly reads this board

[JM2K6]

Many here may not have loved Borthwick as Sarries skipper, but it’s pretty clear from that he is capable of very effective man-management/leadership.

I'd be surprised if many on here could remember any of it

[Slick]

Are we happy to say a corner has clearly been turned now? Gutted by the ending but a performance to be proud of. Plenty still to work on but suddenly the attack is really purring.

According to Ford (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... h-rugby-on ) it really seems like the Scotland loss was a turning point. Everyone recognised that the attack had been an absolute shitshow and the rugby was miserable with little chance of beating good teams. The resulting change is exactly what everyone has been crying out for for a long time.

The turning point for this campaign – maybe for Borthwick’s tenure, too – came in the aftermath of the error strewn defeat by Scotland. The squad promised “unbelievably honest” conversations when they gathered in York for the second fallow week and it is understood that some senior players, even some of Borthwick’s staff, challenged him to allow more time to be spent working on attack in training. You could see the absence of it in the clunkiness at Murrayfield, the handling errors, the unfamiliarity and the lack of cohesion in what England were doing.

The focus up to that point had been to drill into the players Felix Jones’s new defensive system but for the two-week buildup to facing Ireland the attack was polished and the results were evident at Twickenham. Against France, having withstood a first-half onslaught, it was similarly electric as they fought back from 16-3 down.

“Our mindset since Scotland has been to really go at teams with ball in hand,” the fly‑half George Ford said. “Be a threat, ask questions, fire shots, be that attacking team, be on the front foot a lot more. I think you’ve seen that the last two weeks. We had to front up after that [Scotland] game. We had to make a choice. It was off the back of that game when we had to have a few honest conversations about things and decide what team we want to be.”

...

“We definitely went to one side of the spectrum and that’s what the whole conversation was since that [Scotland] game; that we needed to shift the other way.”

Against France it was Ben Earl – yet again one of the standout performers on the field – and Ollie Lawrence giving the go‑forward that makes it so much easier for Ford to play flat. We saw it with Marcus Smith’s try, after Earl had made the break, but perhaps it was Tommy Freeman’s score, after quick hands from Ford and Smith, that gives supporters most reason for cheer.

So how would Ford sum up the new England way?

“Flatter to the line, running into gaps, running into spaces, creating one-on-ones, getting quick ball at the ruck and being at them. The penny has dropped in terms of what type of team we want to be and how dangerous we can be.”

It's this public recognition of the problem, the willingness of the squad + staff to challenge Borthwick, and the implicit mea culpa from him about the approach so far that makes me more confident than the actual displays since then. This really does seem to be a sea change in attitude, and that's great to see. Obviously it's ridiculous that it has taken so, so long to get it through to Borthwick that defence & kicking alone will not get you far, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth and there are plenty of people in his position who would have dismissed the concerns.

There are still problems, of course. Selecting Manu on the bench and Daly to start meant that we were poorly balanced. Marcus Smith is not a fullback and we really should stop trying to make him one. Underhill spent most of the first half missing heaps of tackles. The defence looks like it will always hand one or two tries a match to the opposition on a plate. The first half kicking display was poor and we shot ourselves in the foot far too often. But the turnaround at half time and the desire to attack was great to see, exactly the sort of willingness to examine the match situation and recognise when a plan needs to change. Ford's display shows why he's held in such high regard.

If they keep to this blueprint then we're in a much better position to get the best out of the players we're producing. We should look to move on in the summer from Marler, Care, Daly, Tuilagi, Cole, et al. In some cases (Marler/Cole) I can understand taking them on tour and making use of them in the Tests, but this will be a great opportunity to see what the likes of Fin Baxter can do against quality teams while turning out for a side with a commitment to attacking rugby. The others are just stopping players from getting much needed game time and not really offering us much in return bar the odd cameo.

Pretty much what I've been saying. Welcome.

[SaintK]

Manu gone. Signed for Bayonne.
Thanks for some great memories, shame about the recurring injuries, would have had dozens more caps otherwise

Manu Tuilagi has agreed to join Bayonne on a two-year deal next summer, bringing an end to his England career. The 32-year-old made his swansong appearance off the bench against France last Saturday and is set to make himself ineligible for England by joining the Top 14 side.
A host of clubs were interested in Tuilagi’s signature but it is believed that, following the conclusion of the Six Nations, the centre visited Bayonne on Monday to undergo a medical. Provided he passes all the necessary checks

[JM2K6]

Are we happy to say a corner has clearly been turned now? Gutted by the ending but a performance to be proud of. Plenty still to work on but suddenly the attack is really purring.

According to Ford (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... h-rugby-on ) it really seems like the Scotland loss was a turning point. Everyone recognised that the attack had been an absolute shitshow and the rugby was miserable with little chance of beating good teams. The resulting change is exactly what everyone has been crying out for for a long time.

The turning point for this campaign – maybe for Borthwick’s tenure, too – came in the aftermath of the error strewn defeat by Scotland. The squad promised “unbelievably honest” conversations when they gathered in York for the second fallow week and it is understood that some senior players, even some of Borthwick’s staff, challenged him to allow more time to be spent working on attack in training. You could see the absence of it in the clunkiness at Murrayfield, the handling errors, the unfamiliarity and the lack of cohesion in what England were doing.

The focus up to that point had been to drill into the players Felix Jones’s new defensive system but for the two-week buildup to facing Ireland the attack was polished and the results were evident at Twickenham. Against France, having withstood a first-half onslaught, it was similarly electric as they fought back from 16-3 down.

“Our mindset since Scotland has been to really go at teams with ball in hand,” the fly‑half George Ford said. “Be a threat, ask questions, fire shots, be that attacking team, be on the front foot a lot more. I think you’ve seen that the last two weeks. We had to front up after that [Scotland] game. We had to make a choice. It was off the back of that game when we had to have a few honest conversations about things and decide what team we want to be.”

...

“We definitely went to one side of the spectrum and that’s what the whole conversation was since that [Scotland] game; that we needed to shift the other way.”

Against France it was Ben Earl – yet again one of the standout performers on the field – and Ollie Lawrence giving the go‑forward that makes it so much easier for Ford to play flat. We saw it with Marcus Smith’s try, after Earl had made the break, but perhaps it was Tommy Freeman’s score, after quick hands from Ford and Smith, that gives supporters most reason for cheer.

So how would Ford sum up the new England way?

“Flatter to the line, running into gaps, running into spaces, creating one-on-ones, getting quick ball at the ruck and being at them. The penny has dropped in terms of what type of team we want to be and how dangerous we can be.”

It's this public recognition of the problem, the willingness of the squad + staff to challenge Borthwick, and the implicit mea culpa from him about the approach so far that makes me more confident than the actual displays since then. This really does seem to be a sea change in attitude, and that's great to see. Obviously it's ridiculous that it has taken so, so long to get it through to Borthwick that defence & kicking alone will not get you far, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth and there are plenty of people in his position who would have dismissed the concerns.

There are still problems, of course. Selecting Manu on the bench and Daly to start meant that we were poorly balanced. Marcus Smith is not a fullback and we really should stop trying to make him one. Underhill spent most of the first half missing heaps of tackles. The defence looks like it will always hand one or two tries a match to the opposition on a plate. The first half kicking display was poor and we shot ourselves in the foot far too often. But the turnaround at half time and the desire to attack was great to see, exactly the sort of willingness to examine the match situation and recognise when a plan needs to change. Ford's display shows why he's held in such high regard.

If they keep to this blueprint then we're in a much better position to get the best out of the players we're producing. We should look to move on in the summer from Marler, Care, Daly, Tuilagi, Cole, et al. In some cases (Marler/Cole) I can understand taking them on tour and making use of them in the Tests, but this will be a great opportunity to see what the likes of Fin Baxter can do against quality teams while turning out for a side with a commitment to attacking rugby. The others are just stopping players from getting much needed game time and not really offering us much in return bar the odd cameo.

Pretty much what I've been saying. Welcome.

Hah!

I'm suggesting taking the opportunity to give more gametime to the replacements, rather than ditching them immediately (except for Manu and Daly, who offer nothing) but it is inevitable that it must happen over the next 12 months

[Paddington Bear]

Some days are like that. But it's much harder to get a team to click in attack when you've spent a year coaching them the opposite (and have practically no relevant coaching expertise anyway) but still expect them to attack at full pace.

A bunch of the errors were inexplicable and I don't expect to see that many again. I don't remember us making that many handling errors in the first two games of shambling incoherent bullshit, so I'm not keen on putting the blame just on them

Sometimes it’s good for the players to have a a couple of sessions without any coaches present.

Borthwick quite clearly reads this board

‘Ellis, there’s this Scottish bloke who fucking hates you…’

[el capitan]

It's a starting point. Whether we got to it by accident or design doesn't matter, but what we've seen in the last two games has to be the path we continue to follow.

As everyone says, have to continue to put more pieces of the puzzle in place and the bolder style of play needs to continue with selection in the next 12 months. Urgently need to find out who can cut it in the front row, we need to establish more options at 9, I think centres still look threadbare, and there's spots open in the back three too.

Keep finding players who can offer something in terms of pace and/or power and the attacking game shouldn't be a problem. The defence is a real worry still in my opinion - tight in it seems to be getting into groove, any time the opposition manage to shift the ball into the midfield though it seems to usually end with a try. And at the end of the day, any system that relies so heavily on Henry Slade's defensive reads in the 13 channel you can't get too optimistic about.

Also - I actually quite like Smith in that role covering 10 or 15, like DMac has done for years for the All Blacks. It's probably one of the best things Borthwick has done, for me. Yeah I can see why fans think it might be a bit of a waste, he might not really be a fullback, but it frees him up to float about, act as a roving second playmaker, and unleash his running game. It's a nice option to have for the latter stages of a match.

[geordie_6]

One thing I've been pleasantly surprised by with Borthwick is that he seems to trust his bench players and actually utilises them, as opposed to flogging the arse out of specific favourites like George. Under Eddie, it just felt like they were there to make up the numbers in case of injury.

[Random1]

It's a starting point. Whether we got to it by accident or design doesn't matter, but what we've seen in the last two games has to be the path we continue to follow.

As everyone says, have to continue to put more pieces of the puzzle in place and the bolder style of play needs to continue with selection in the next 12 months. Urgently need to find out who can cut it in the front row, we need to establish more options at 9, I think centres still look threadbare, and there's spots open in the back three too.

Keep finding players who can offer something in terms of pace and/or power and the attacking game shouldn't be a problem. The defence is a real worry still in my opinion - tight in it seems to be getting into groove, any time the opposition manage to shift the ball into the midfield though it seems to usually end with a try. And at the end of the day, any system that relies so heavily on Henry Slade's defensive reads in the 13 channel you can't get too optimistic about.

Also - I actually quite like Smith in that role covering 10 or 15, like DMac has done for years for the All Blacks. It's probably one of the best things Borthwick has done, for me. Yeah I can see why fans think it might be a bit of a waste, he might not really be a fullback, but it frees him up to float about, act as a roving second playmaker, and unleash his running game. It's a nice option to have for the latter stages of a match.

If we’re talking about things still left to fix, then add something about the high ball in there. I don’t think we caught many that went up once steward was dropped

But again, that’s a player issue

I don’t mind player issues - they can be fixed fairly quickly, as long as we pick on talent and give them some time

It’s the system fixes that have been the exciting part - long may it last!

[sockwithaticket]

It's a starting point. Whether we got to it by accident or design doesn't matter, but what we've seen in the last two games has to be the path we continue to follow.

As everyone says, have to continue to put more pieces of the puzzle in place and the bolder style of play needs to continue with selection in the next 12 months. Urgently need to find out who can cut it in the front row, we need to establish more options at 9, I think centres still look threadbare, and there's spots open in the back three too.

Keep finding players who can offer something in terms of pace and/or power and the attacking game shouldn't be a problem. The defence is a real worry still in my opinion - tight in it seems to be getting into groove, any time the opposition manage to shift the ball into the midfield though it seems to usually end with a try. And at the end of the day, any system that relies so heavily on Henry Slade's defensive reads in the 13 channel you can't get too optimistic about.

Also - I actually quite like Smith in that role covering 10 or 15, like DMac has done for years for the All Blacks. It's probably one of the best things Borthwick has done, for me. Yeah I can see why fans think it might be a bit of a waste, he might not really be a fullback, but it frees him up to float about, act as a roving second playmaker, and unleash his running game. It's a nice option to have for the latter stages of a match.

If we’re talking about things still left to fix, then add something about the high ball in there. I don’t think we caught many that went up once steward was dropped

But again, that’s a player issue

I don’t mind player issues - they can be fixed fairly quickly, as long as we pick on talent and give them some time

It’s the system fixes that have been the exciting part - long may it last!

One of my big frustrations with Daly is how he gets up to tap it back rather than actually try and claim the ball and as often as not it seems to go to an opposition player. Maybe he's doing that under orders, but if so it needs to be sorted out sharpish. Catch the ball, don't turn it into a hand grenade in our own ranks.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

why wouldn't chasers look to slap a ball back? you can get higher doing that than trying to catch it

okay if it's leading to scrums and then we're getting pinged off the park from said scrums the plan needs some revising, else they'll be encouraged. probably they'd be keener on looking at why Daly keeps finding blockers on the chase

[sockwithaticket]

why wouldn't chasers look to slap a ball back? you can get higher doing that than trying to catch it

okay if it's leading to scrums and then we're getting pinged off the park from said scrums the plan needs some revising, else they'll be encouraged. probably they'd be keener on looking at why Daly keeps finding blockers on the chase

I mean, I think I outlined it. Tapping it back doesn't seem to result in us actually gaining possession all that often and it seems to sow a bit of chaos and confusion in our ranks.

It could be my misconception, but it seems like other teams either claim the ball in the air more readily or follow up the tap better. Improve the latter or work on the former.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

why wouldn't chasers look to slap a ball back? you can get higher doing that than trying to catch it

okay if it's leading to scrums and then we're getting pinged off the park from said scrums the plan needs some revising, else they'll be encouraged. probably they'd be keener on looking at why Daly keeps finding blockers on the chase

I mean, I think I outlined it. Tapping it back doesn't seem to result in us actually gaining possession all that often and it seems to sow a bit of chaos and confusion in our ranks.

It could be my misconception, but it seems like other teams either claim the ball in the air more readily or follow up the tap better. Improve the latter or work on the former.

I don't know, but I'd guess England had the best rate of reclaiming box kicks this 6N. So it seems we're seeing rather different things

[Raggs]

We normally have at least 2 players, who's express job is to either recover the slap back, complete the tackle, or make the jackal if the chaser completes it. The opposition are often more concerned with trying to create a shield, but are also normally going backwards, so even if they do recover the slap back, they should be contained reasonably quickly, they're also at risk of accidentally taking a knocked on ball, and giving a pen, which will probably lead to a bit of indecision on their part.

I suspect winning the slap back 60% of the time, works out better than winning the ball cleanly only 40% of the time (numbers made up and just for example).

[SaintK]

No young No 8's coming through at Tigers then?

Leicester Tigers have signed Junior Springboks No8 Corné Beets on a long-term deal ahead of next season.
The 20-year-old is the current Junior Springbok of the year, having starred in his country’s third-place finish at the U20 World Championship last July.
Beets will fill the void left by compatriot Jasper Wiese at the back of the Leicester scrum, with the World Cup winner leaving Welford Road at the end of the season.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/leicest ... ingbok/

[JM2K6]

We normally have at least 2 players, who's express job is to either recover the slap back, complete the tackle, or make the jackal if the chaser completes it. The opposition are often more concerned with trying to create a shield, but are also normally going backwards, so even if they do recover the slap back, they should be contained reasonably quickly, they're also at risk of accidentally taking a knocked on ball, and giving a pen, which will probably lead to a bit of indecision on their part.

I suspect winning the slap back 60% of the time, works out better than winning the ball cleanly only 40% of the time (numbers made up and just for example).

The problem with slapping it back is that in most cases there is a gaggle of opposition players in the exact area you're slapping back to, because everyone focuses on clever blocking plays and congesting the area a winger would be trying to run through to get a clear shot at the ball. In most cases I would expect there to be more oppo players than teammates. We certainly don't seem to benefit from the slap backs in practice.

[JM2K6]

One thing I've been pleasantly surprised by with Borthwick is that he seems to trust his bench players and actually utilises them, as opposed to flogging the arse out of specific favourites like George. Under Eddie, it just felt like they were there to make up the numbers in case of injury.

Yup. Even with George - nice to see the captain get hooked without an issue when the game demands it.

[Raggs]

We normally have at least 2 players, who's express job is to either recover the slap back, complete the tackle, or make the jackal if the chaser completes it. The opposition are often more concerned with trying to create a shield, but are also normally going backwards, so even if they do recover the slap back, they should be contained reasonably quickly, they're also at risk of accidentally taking a knocked on ball, and giving a pen, which will probably lead to a bit of indecision on their part.

I suspect winning the slap back 60% of the time, works out better than winning the ball cleanly only 40% of the time (numbers made up and just for example).

The problem with slapping it back is that in most cases there is a gaggle of opposition players in the exact area you're slapping back to, because everyone focuses on clever blocking plays and congesting the area a winger would be trying to run through to get a clear shot at the ball. In most cases I would expect there to be more oppo players than teammates. We certainly don't seem to benefit from the slap backs in practice.

Have you counted and checked the outcomes? My gut suggests we recover the majority the slap backs, for the reasons I've posted. Winning the battle in the air and catching the ball definitely seems like a lower outcome play. Typically the catcher instantly hits the floor anyway, and then there's a slow ruck, and the defensive line is mostly set. The slap and recover is usually ball in hand with a chance to spread quick in a still disrupted defensive line.

I think the Wibble rugby video covers this a bit.

[Hal Jordan]

Many here may not have loved Borthwick as Sarries skipper, but it’s pretty clear from that he is capable of very effective man-management/leadership.

We weren't fans of him as England skipper, either.

[JM2K6]

We normally have at least 2 players, who's express job is to either recover the slap back, complete the tackle, or make the jackal if the chaser completes it. The opposition are often more concerned with trying to create a shield, but are also normally going backwards, so even if they do recover the slap back, they should be contained reasonably quickly, they're also at risk of accidentally taking a knocked on ball, and giving a pen, which will probably lead to a bit of indecision on their part.

I suspect winning the slap back 60% of the time, works out better than winning the ball cleanly only 40% of the time (numbers made up and just for example).

The problem with slapping it back is that in most cases there is a gaggle of opposition players in the exact area you're slapping back to, because everyone focuses on clever blocking plays and congesting the area a winger would be trying to run through to get a clear shot at the ball. In most cases I would expect there to be more oppo players than teammates. We certainly don't seem to benefit from the slap backs in practice.

Have you counted and checked the outcomes? My gut suggests we recover the majority the slap backs, for the reasons I've posted. Winning the battle in the air and catching the ball definitely seems like a lower outcome play. Typically the catcher instantly hits the floor anyway, and then there's a slow ruck, and the defensive line is mostly set. The slap and recover is usually ball in hand with a chance to spread quick in a still disrupted defensive line.

All of us are going on gut here, so no. My gut disagrees with yours. It is much, much better to catch the ball than to slap it back - it's very unlikely you'll regather cleanly and on your feet with a slap back, whereas catching the ball means you have possession and momentum, you have a chance of breaking clear, and the morass of oppo players in between the kicker and catcher suddenly need to sprint back anyway. I understand disagreeing over how effective a slap back is, but I cannot for a second agree that it's even close to being as good for you as actually winning it in the air.

I think the Wibble rugby video covers this a bit.

The Wibble rugby video post-Scotland where he claims the Lions were trying to play pretty rugby against the Boks, that claims the defence-first-with-no-meaningful-attack approach was the only option (right before the squad decided otherwise), and that claimed Saumaki was tearing it up for Tigers as an example of amazing Moneyball signings? I will admit I didn't make it through the entire video because a) he said 3-4 provably stupid/wrong things early doors, and b) it was immediately invalidated by England completely changing course and then producing their best rugby for a long, long time over the next couple of matches.

That Wibble?

[Raggs]

The problem with slapping it back is that in most cases there is a gaggle of opposition players in the exact area you're slapping back to, because everyone focuses on clever blocking plays and congesting the area a winger would be trying to run through to get a clear shot at the ball. In most cases I would expect there to be more oppo players than teammates. We certainly don't seem to benefit from the slap backs in practice.

Have you counted and checked the outcomes? My gut suggests we recover the majority the slap backs, for the reasons I've posted. Winning the battle in the air and catching the ball definitely seems like a lower outcome play. Typically the catcher instantly hits the floor anyway, and then there's a slow ruck, and the defensive line is mostly set. The slap and recover is usually ball in hand with a chance to spread quick in a still disrupted defensive line.

All of us are going on gut here, so no. My gut disagrees with yours. It is much, much better to catch the ball than to slap it back - it's very unlikely you'll regather cleanly and on your feet with a slap back, whereas catching the ball means you have possession and momentum, you have a chance of breaking clear, and the morass of oppo players in between the kicker and catcher suddenly need to sprint back anyway. I understand disagreeing over how effective a slap back is, but I cannot for a second agree that it's even close to being as good for you as actually winning it in the air.

I think the Wibble rugby video covers this a bit.

The Wibble rugby video post-Scotland where he claims the Lions were trying to play pretty rugby against the Boks, that claims the defence-first-with-no-meaningful-attack approach was the only option (right before the squad decided otherwise), and that claimed Saumaki was tearing it up for Tigers as an example of amazing Moneyball signings? I will admit I didn't make it through the entire video because a) he said 3-4 provably stupid/wrong things early doors, and b) it was immediately invalidated by England completely changing course and then producing their best rugby for a long, long time over the next couple of matches.

That Wibble?

So against Ireland (where we focused on attack more in training, it's not like we changed defence completely, and it's not like we weren't attempting to attack in earlier games) we had 1 kick chase that was contestable. Our player attempted the slap, which put pressure on Ireland, and they knocked the ball backwards, getting tackled well behind where the ball was originally tapped back.

Next up, we attempted to slap they attempted to catch, and the pressure lead to a knock on and our possession.

Think the only other kick you could argue was properly contested was the kick into our 22 by ireland, where both players attempted to catch and we took it.

Not big numbers, but 2 slap attempts, neither ending badly, one ending well. 1 instance of both players trying to catch kicked to us, and we caught it.

There were instances where the chaser just went for the tackle, or one instance where our catcher apparently just decided not to take it (Irish kick to us), and it fell into the arms of the Irishman who hadn't even jumped.

I'll go through the Scot game next.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Catching will likely be better than a slap back, but it's more achievable, and more disrupting to try for the slap than the catch. So you takes your bet you makes your choice.

Actually bar some instances of our main chaser not getting wide enough to get around the blockers and some pish kicks the kick chase, and attempts to disrupt/slap, went pretty well this 6N. And if I could pick to choose to improve the catching it would be on us receiving the ball not on the chase.

[Monk]

On defence always call for the ball and go for the catch and mark it in the 22

On offence go for the catch but slap it back if it looks dodgy - trust the player’s instinct.

[JM2K6]

Have you counted and checked the outcomes? My gut suggests we recover the majority the slap backs, for the reasons I've posted. Winning the battle in the air and catching the ball definitely seems like a lower outcome play. Typically the catcher instantly hits the floor anyway, and then there's a slow ruck, and the defensive line is mostly set. The slap and recover is usually ball in hand with a chance to spread quick in a still disrupted defensive line.

All of us are going on gut here, so no. My gut disagrees with yours. It is much, much better to catch the ball than to slap it back - it's very unlikely you'll regather cleanly and on your feet with a slap back, whereas catching the ball means you have possession and momentum, you have a chance of breaking clear, and the morass of oppo players in between the kicker and catcher suddenly need to sprint back anyway. I understand disagreeing over how effective a slap back is, but I cannot for a second agree that it's even close to being as good for you as actually winning it in the air.

I think the Wibble rugby video covers this a bit.

The Wibble rugby video post-Scotland where he claims the Lions were trying to play pretty rugby against the Boks, that claims the defence-first-with-no-meaningful-attack approach was the only option (right before the squad decided otherwise), and that claimed Saumaki was tearing it up for Tigers as an example of amazing Moneyball signings? I will admit I didn't make it through the entire video because a) he said 3-4 provably stupid/wrong things early doors, and b) it was immediately invalidated by England completely changing course and then producing their best rugby for a long, long time over the next couple of matches.

That Wibble?

So against Ireland (where we focused on attack more in training, it's not like we changed defence completely, and it's not like we weren't attempting to attack in earlier games) we had 1 kick chase that was contestable. Our player attempted the slap, which put pressure on Ireland, and they knocked the ball backwards, getting tackled well behind where the ball was originally tapped back.

Next up, we attempted to slap they attempted to catch, and the pressure lead to a knock on and our possession.

Think the only other kick you could argue was properly contested was the kick into our 22 by ireland, where both players attempted to catch and we took it.

Not big numbers, but 2 slap attempts, neither ending badly, one ending well. 1 instance of both players trying to catch kicked to us, and we caught it.

There were instances where the chaser just went for the tackle, or one instance where our catcher apparently just decided not to take it (Irish kick to us), and it fell into the arms of the Irishman who hadn't even jumped.

I'll go through the Scot game next.

Cheers. I don't mean to sound churlish but obviously two instances is not any kind of reasonable sample. Surprising that there were that few contestable kicks though, even given our desire to keep ball in hand.

[inactionman]

TNT Sports will show each and every Premiership game next season.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68625302

Will this open up new audiences? Not sure, but personally speaking I'll be glad to be able to watch more of Bath next season - by my reckoning it's been almost 5 years since I was last at the rec..

[Oxbow]

Because of injuries and Mitchell being rested, Archie McParland starts at 9 for Saints tonight against Bristol. I hope he looks better than he did for much of the U20s.

[SaintK]

Because of injuries and Mitchell being rested, Archie McParland starts at 9 for Saints tonight against Bristol. I hope he looks better than he did for much of the U20s.

He didn't look too bad in the Premiership Cup earlier in the season.
Shame Tom James is crocked

[Oxbow]

Because of injuries and Mitchell being rested, Archie McParland starts at 9 for Saints tonight against Bristol. I hope he looks better than he did for much of the U20s.

He didn't look too bad in the Premiership Cup earlier in the season.
Shame Tom James is crocked

That's true enough. From what I've seen of him I quite like the look of Garside, he has some wheels on him.

[Margin__Walker]

Because of injuries and Mitchell being rested, Archie McParland starts at 9 for Saints tonight against Bristol. I hope he looks better than he did for much of the U20s.

[JM2K6]

Should've been binned a bit later on too, plus a couple of other fuckups. He hasn't impressed.

[JM2K6]

Saints attacking on the line and getting smashed backwards because the 9 takes forever to pass and then stops his runners with the pass anyway

[JM2K6]

Sleightholm with a quite remarkable finish through several defenders and Ibitoye

[Margin__Walker]

Sleightholm with a quite remarkable finish through several defenders and Ibitoye

[Oxbow]

Saints attacking on the line and getting smashed backwards because the 9 takes forever to pass and then stops his runners with the pass anyway

He's taking a fucking age. My nan could get the ball away quicker and she's been dead about 40 years.

[Oxbow]

Well that was shit, welcome to 2023.

[petej]

Shit from tigers against Gloucester. At some point you have to actually fucking play rugby. Nice to see jvp who even after a long time out is a definite improvement on the rubbish played/served up by Youngs. Not sure where we found him but shillcock is rubbish like Paul Burke without the goal kicking ability. The problem with dropping so much cash on pollard is it leaves you in trouble when he is injured. I had thought Dan mckellar would be a more attack minded than the previous coaches.