NPR

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:35 pm That Ludlum call is genuinely batshit.

Eddie's just in it for the lols these days.

Is this the rugby equivalent of "even Heskey scored"

So Willis didn't train on Monday due to a dead leg. Times suggesting he was dropped as a selection, rather than fitness, but it's not like he's Ford/Sinkler/Farrell etc, where he already knows the team/gameplay etc. I'd not pick him if he hasn't trained either, but hopefully means Wasps get to use his services at the weekend.

Team's up.



Pretty much as expected, though I had hoped Ford would come straight back in at 10. Kind of interesting that Malins retains the bench spot even with Ford around, suggests he is primarily seen as a fullback internationally and will continue to mimick Alex Goode in being a 10 who became a 15.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:09 am Team's up.



Pretty much as expected, though I had hoped Ford would come straight back in at 10.

The creative vaccuum continues, kick and chase the order of the day, i quite fancy the Irish to win this.

ASMO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:11 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:09 am Team's up.



Pretty much as expected, though I had hoped Ford would come straight back in at 10.

The creative vaccuum continues, kick and chase the order of the day, i quite fancy the Irish to win this.

I fear we'll have enough in the forwards to grind it out and validate the anti-rugby approach.

It's so frustrating, you look at the number of great ball players and runners in that team and they could be playing so much more inventively.

Ireland, it would be fair to say, had no answer to a kick and chase game earlier this year.

ASMO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:11 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:09 am Team's up.



Pretty much as expected, though I had hoped Ford would come straight back in at 10.

The creative vaccuum continues, kick and chase the order of the day, i quite fancy the Irish to win this.

Bench looks quite impressive

Quins with 18 players unavailable (13 due to injury) for the opener against Exeter seems... sub-optimal. Decent XV we've put out anyway but the bench is not so hot. Just what you need at the start of the most grinding season ever!

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:09 am Team's up.



Pretty much as expected, though I had hoped Ford would come straight back in at 10. Kind of interesting that Malins retains the bench spot even with Ford around, suggests he is primarily seen as a fullback internationally and will continue to mimick Alex Goode in being a 10 who became a 15.

My favoured second-row pairing at least. Would like to have seen Willis given another chance on the bench. Hope it's just a knock/injury rest, though we have a good load of options across the backrow.

Just don't like Farrell at 10 over Ford (or indeed potentially others); if he has to play at all, it should be at 12. I know most of you agree so it's old hat, but I really don't know what he brings that puts him head & shoulders above everyone else and makes him indispensible. At 10/12, going down his attributes: kicking (out of hand & place), there are others as good; passing - ditto; defensive marshalling - ditto; running - most others are better; play-making - ditto; tackling - ditto. Given his earnest attitude, I can see that he might be a coach's dream as a leader / totemic figure, especially in training. But there are others who could take that role on the field if given the chance.

Thing is, you know what you're going to get from Farrell. However, (a) it's not all good (tackling can be a liability and he makes the attach stodgy) and (b) so does the opposition.

I genuinely think it would do the England camp a favour if Farrell had a season out so they can work on a system that does not depend on him.

Farrell at 10 worked well against Oz in the World Cup and it would be nice if that's how it went more often :(

Woddy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:48 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:09 am Team's up.



Pretty much as expected, though I had hoped Ford would come straight back in at 10. Kind of interesting that Malins retains the bench spot even with Ford around, suggests he is primarily seen as a fullback internationally and will continue to mimick Alex Goode in being a 10 who became a 15.

My favoured second-row pairing at least. Would like to have seen Willis given another chance on the bench. Hope it's just a knock/injury rest, though we have a good load of options across the backrow.

Just don't like Farrell at 10 over Ford (or indeed potentially others); if he has to play at all, it should be at 12. I know most of you agree so it's old hat, but I really don't know what he brings that puts him head & shoulders above everyone else and makes him indispensible. At 10/12, going down his attributes: kicking (out of hand & place), there are others as good; passing - ditto; defensive marshalling - ditto; running - most others are better; play-making - ditto; tackling - ditto. Given his earnest attitude, I can see that he might be a coach's dream as a leader / totemic figure, especially in training. But there are others who could take that role on the field if given the chance.

Thing is, you know what you're going to get from Farrell. However, (a) it's not all good (tackling can be a liability and he makes the attach stodgy) and (b) so does the opposition.

I genuinely think it would do the England camp a favour if Farrell had a season out so they can work on a system that does not depend on him.

It could be confirmation bias on my part, but it does feel like when coaches praise him they focus very much on his leadership, his will to win, general competitiveness and how he drives standards in training rather than his playing qualities. I do wonder if that's the tacit acknowledgement of what you've said, but demonstrates how coaches think differently to punters/fans; i.e. ability isn't everything.

Apparently Willis had a dead leg earlier in the week that restricted his opportunities to train.

I think we're at the stage where there isn't anything new to say about selection, certainly not the starters. The whole set up just feels... tired.

Big survival package from the Govt:

Rugby Union will receive £135m in total, with £59m of that going to Premiership clubs. Rugby league, in contrast, will be given £12m. Horse racing is also to receive substantial support, totalling £40m. By contrast, netball will receive £4m and tennis £5m.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... al-package

edit: To be clear, these are mostly loans.

Horse racing eh? Matt Hancock delivers again!

Good to see Lunchberyy back in the starting squad.

He seems to have just being really good for ages - if he was Welsh he would over 100 caps and Squidge rugby would be red raw over him.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:58 pm Farrell at 10 worked well against Oz in the World Cup and it would be nice if that's how it went more often :(

Farrell plays much better at 10 for Saracens than he does for England and I think 50% of that is down to having Barritt at 12 and the other 50% is because Saracens have a better coach.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:59 pm

Woddy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:48 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:09 am Team's up.



Pretty much as expected, though I had hoped Ford would come straight back in at 10. Kind of interesting that Malins retains the bench spot even with Ford around, suggests he is primarily seen as a fullback internationally and will continue to mimick Alex Goode in being a 10 who became a 15.

My favoured second-row pairing at least. Would like to have seen Willis given another chance on the bench. Hope it's just a knock/injury rest, though we have a good load of options across the backrow.

Just don't like Farrell at 10 over Ford (or indeed potentially others); if he has to play at all, it should be at 12. I know most of you agree so it's old hat, but I really don't know what he brings that puts him head & shoulders above everyone else and makes him indispensible. At 10/12, going down his attributes: kicking (out of hand & place), there are others as good; passing - ditto; defensive marshalling - ditto; running - most others are better; play-making - ditto; tackling - ditto. Given his earnest attitude, I can see that he might be a coach's dream as a leader / totemic figure, especially in training. But there are others who could take that role on the field if given the chance.

Thing is, you know what you're going to get from Farrell. However, (a) it's not all good (tackling can be a liability and he makes the attach stodgy) and (b) so does the opposition.

I genuinely think it would do the England camp a favour if Farrell had a season out so they can work on a system that does not depend on him.

It could be confirmation bias on my part, but it does feel like when coaches praise him they focus very much on his leadership, his will to win, general competitiveness and how he drives standards in training rather than his playing qualities. I do wonder if that's the tacit acknowledgement of what you've said, but demonstrates how coaches think differently to punters/fans; i.e. ability isn't everything.

Apparently Willis had a dead leg earlier in the week that restricted his opportunities to train.

There was an element of that with Hartley, who could get Jones's message across to the troops well and gird their loins on the pitch. But we did not have to sacrifice major advantages that rivals for his jersey might have brought. The issue for Farrell is that he does (I would argue).

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:52 pm Good to see Lunchberyy back in the starting squad.

He seems to have just being really good for ages - if he was Welsh he would over 100 caps and Squidge rugby would be red raw over him.

He's a great player but has suffered from the same thing Simon Shaw did for a good part of his career, in that there were a ton of locks in their prime around at the same time as him.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:22 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:52 pm Good to see Lunchberyy back in the starting squad.

He seems to have just being really good for ages - if he was Welsh he would over 100 caps and Squidge rugby would be red raw over him.

He's a great player but has suffered from the same thing Simon Shaw did for a good part of his career, in that there were a ton of locks in their prime around at the same time as him.

All those good locks available and Knobwood picked Ben Kay.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:42 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:22 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:52 pm Good to see Lunchberyy back in the starting squad.

He seems to have just being really good for ages - if he was Welsh he would over 100 caps and Squidge rugby would be red raw over him.

He's a great player but has suffered from the same thing Simon Shaw did for a good part of his career, in that there were a ton of locks in their prime around at the same time as him.

All those good locks available and Knobwood picked Ben Kay.

Shaw's more specific problem was that he was seen to be in competition for Johnson's spot, rather than the more athletic lock who could play alongside him. Kay got around that issue by playing with Johnson at club level to show he could work it even as a big lump.

Launchbury's had a fair few dips in form over the years and his sometimes abysmal restart work, occasionally crap lineout, and baffling poor hands at times have dented his record quite a bit. He's a very talented player so those lapses have always been a surprise, no matter how often they happened.

Woddy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:06 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:42 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:22 pm

He's a great player but has suffered from the same thing Simon Shaw did for a good part of his career, in that there were a ton of locks in their prime around at the same time as him.

All those good locks available and Knobwood picked Ben Kay.

Shaw's more specific problem was that he was seen to be in competition for Johnson's spot, rather than the more athletic lock who could play alongside him. Kay got around that issue by playing with Johnson at club level to show he could work it even as a big lump.

Lifting wasn't allowed when Johnson and Shaw were locks and the lineout wasn't a place for lightweights. Shaw was a better lock than Kay in just about every way.

Lifting came in in 1999. Ben Kay played his first match for England in 2001.

He was an excellent athletic lock who also happened to be fairly beefy with it.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:55 pm Lifting came in in 1999. Ben Kay played his first match for England in 2001.

He was an excellent athletic lock who also happened to be fairly beefy with it.

Wrong.

Lifting wasn't allowed until 2008. You could support before that but not lift.

Kay was average. Easily the worst player in the Woodward pack.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:04 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:55 pm Lifting came in in 1999. Ben Kay played his first match for England in 2001.

He was an excellent athletic lock who also happened to be fairly beefy with it.

Wrong.

Lifting wasn't allowed until 2008. You could support before that but not lift.

Kay was average. Easily the worst player in the Woodward pack.

"Supporting" and "lifting" were essentially identical, just a matter of timing; players were still being propelled higher by the lifters. Just watch any of the matches from that period. For example, the 2003 final - "that" Lewis Moody take at the tail of the lineout...

Kay was an excellent lineout forward, read opposition lineouts brilliantly, called them brilliantly, and was very athletic. Shaw had many strings to his bow but he was a 2 for all money (and was a penalty magnet without peer, but that's another argument entirely).

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:04 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:55 pm Lifting came in in 1999. Ben Kay played his first match for England in 2001.

He was an excellent athletic lock who also happened to be fairly beefy with it.

Wrong.

Lifting wasn't allowed until 2008. You could support before that but not lift.

Kay was average. Easily the worst player in the Woodward pack.

In practice the props lifted anyway. They certainly lifted me back in the 90s and early 00s. Either way, I agree that Shaw's bulk weighed against him for lineout work compared to others. The more athletic locks like Archer and Grewcock were large but more rangy and seen to complement a more 'solid' lock like Johnson and Shaw. Whether that was a correct perception was and is open to argument.

Re Launch, I don't think his hands are any worse than others'. Even Itoje knocks on a few times a game.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:27 pm Launchbury's had a fair few dips in form over the years and his sometimes abysmal restart work, occasionally crap lineout, and baffling poor hands at times have dented his record quite a bit. He's a very talented player so those lapses have always been a surprise, no matter how often they happened.

Injuries too, some of them before international windows thus preventing England inclusion.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:12 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:04 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:55 pm Lifting came in in 1999. Ben Kay played his first match for England in 2001.

He was an excellent athletic lock who also happened to be fairly beefy with it.

Wrong.

Lifting wasn't allowed until 2008. You could support before that but not lift.

Kay was average. Easily the worst player in the Woodward pack.

"Supporting" and "lifting" were essentially identical, just a matter of timing; players were still being propelled higher by the lifters. Just watch any of the matches from that period. For example, the 2003 final - "that" Lewis Moody take at the tail of the lineout...

Kay was an excellent lineout forward, read opposition lineouts brilliantly, called them brilliantly, and was very athletic. Shaw had many strings to his bow but he was a 2 for all money (and was a penalty magnet without peer, but that's another argument entirely).

I was still playing level 5 league rugby up to 2004 and I remember players getting pinged for lifting in the lineout so in London 1 they certainly weren't considered the same.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:41 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:12 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:04 pm


Wrong.

Lifting wasn't allowed until 2008. You could support before that but not lift.

Kay was average. Easily the worst player in the Woodward pack.

"Supporting" and "lifting" were essentially identical, just a matter of timing; players were still being propelled higher by the lifters. Just watch any of the matches from that period. For example, the 2003 final - "that" Lewis Moody take at the tail of the lineout...

Kay was an excellent lineout forward, read opposition lineouts brilliantly, called them brilliantly, and was very athletic. Shaw had many strings to his bow but he was a 2 for all money (and was a penalty magnet without peer, but that's another argument entirely).

I was still playing level 5 league rugby up to 2004 and I remember players getting pinged for lifting in the lineout so in London 1 they certainly weren't considered the same.

Just watch the 2003 final highlights if you need a reminder.

Maybe they let things go in finals if both teams are doing it.

It wasn't legal to lift, those were the laws. Citing one match or even one lineout in one match really doesn't prove otherwise.

Law19legalising lifting was brought in by the IRB in 1999.

duke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:59 pm Law19legalising lifting was brought in by the IRB in 1999.

Nope

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:04 pm

duke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:59 pm Law19legalising lifting was brought in by the IRB in 1999.

Nope

2 sources say yes

In the meantime, Premiership KO tomorrow night with Saints making their Enya tour. Saints CEO predicting that Covid will result in Saints posting a £15 million loss. In more positive news, Wood, Waller, and Mallinder all recovered from long term injuries

Saints team:

SALE SHARKS vs NORTHAMPTON SAINTS
Gallagher Premiership Rugby, Round 1
Friday 20 November 2020
AJ Bell Stadium
Kick-off: 8pm

15 George Furbank
14 Ahsee Tuala
13 Matt Proctor
12 Piers Francis
11 Tom Collins
10 James Grayson
9 Henry Taylor

1 Alex Waller (c)
2 James Fish
3 Paul Hill
4 Alex Moon
5 Api Ratuniyarawa
6 Nick Isiekwe
7 Tom Wood
8 Teimana Harrison

Replacements:
16 Reece Marshall
17 Nick Auterac
18 Owen Franks
19 David Ribbans
20 JJ Tonks
21 Alex Mitchell
22 Fraser Dingwall
23 Harry Mallinder

Referee: Ian Tempest
Assistant referees: Hamish Smales & Wayne Falla
No.4: Darryl Chapman
TMO: Trevor Fisher

Not available due to injury:
Mikey Haywood (knee), Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (achilles), Rory Hutchinson (ankle), Courtney Lawes (ankle), Ollie Sleightholme (ankle), and Kayde Sylvester (achilles)

duke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:08 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:04 pm

duke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:59 pm Law19legalising lifting was brought in by the IRB in 1999.

Nope

2 sources say yes

Lifting not allowed until ELVs in 2008.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:55 pm Maybe they let things go in finals if both teams are doing it.

It wasn't legal to lift, those were the laws. Citing one match or even one lineout in one match really doesn't prove otherwise.

It's much harder to find examples of lifting not occurring in that time period.

Source or it didn't happen Toga

Can't believe it was legalised as late as 08

Edit - I'm likely wrong tbf

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:17 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:55 pm Maybe they let things go in finals if both teams are doing it.

It wasn't legal to lift, those were the laws. Citing one match or even one lineout in one match really doesn't prove otherwise.

It's much harder to find examples of lifting not occurring in that time period.

To be fair, you only need to find one example of it not occurring to match your evidence that it was allowed.

duke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:08 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:04 pm

duke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:59 pm Law19legalising lifting was brought in by the IRB in 1999.

Nope

2 sources say yes

Actually Law 18, but yes, 1999. In 2000 they amended the law to allow pre-gripping of the players to be lifted to aid stability and safety

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:19 pm Source or it didn't happen Toga

Can't believe it was legalised as late as 08

Edit - I'm likely wrong tbf

Wikipedia is as good as any I guess.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experim ... variations

Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/ ... rugbyunion