NPR

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:21 pm

duke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:08 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:04 pm

Nope

2 sources say yes

Actually Law 18, but yes, 1999. In 2000 they amended the law to allow pre-gripping of the players to be lifted to aid stability and safety

Nope.

Pre-gripping and lifting not allowed until 2008.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:28 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:19 pm Source or it didn't happen Toga

Can't believe it was legalised as late as 08

Edit - I'm likely wrong tbf

Wikipedia is as good as any I guess.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experim ... variations

Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/ ... rugbyunion

1999 -https://www.theroar.com.au/2017/11/01/f ... t%20height'.

1999 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line-out_(rugby_union)

2000 - pre-gripping - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sport/rugby_union/613890.stm

What is being termed lifting? For sure I remember lifting before 1999, but was that lifting just by the shorts and calling that supporting? And lifting includes gripping above the knee to lift a player?

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:32 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:28 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:19 pm Source or it didn't happen Toga

Can't believe it was legalised as late as 08

Edit - I'm likely wrong tbf

Wikipedia is as good as any I guess.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experim ... variations

Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/ ... rugbyunion

1999 -https://www.theroar.com.au/2017/11/01/f ... t%20height'.

1999 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line-out_(rugby_union)

2000 - pre-gripping - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sport/rugby_union/613890.stm

http://www.rugbyfootballhistory.com/2004-2009-ELVs.html

Pre-gripping and lifting not allowed until 2009, not 2008 as I thought.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:44 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:32 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:28 pm



Wikipedia is as good as any I guess.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experim ... variations

Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/ ... rugbyunion

1999 -https://www.theroar.com.au/2017/11/01/f ... t%20height'.

1999 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line-out_(rugby_union)

2000 - pre-gripping - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sport/rugby_union/613890.stm

http://www.rugbyfootballhistory.com/2004-2009-ELVs.html

Pre-gripping and lifting not allowed until 2009, not 2008 as I thought.

So even if you were to discount Wiki and the Roar, the BBC just made up the pre-gripping piece in their article dated Friday 21st Jan 2000?

I suspect that there is a minor difference in the definitions here

Again, it's pretty easy to see the prevalence of lifting during Kay's first few years in international rugby. YouTube is right there.

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:54 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:44 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:32 pm

1999 -https://www.theroar.com.au/2017/11/01/f ... t%20height'.

1999 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line-out_(rugby_union)

2000 - pre-gripping - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sport/rugby_union/613890.stm

http://www.rugbyfootballhistory.com/2004-2009-ELVs.html

Pre-gripping and lifting not allowed until 2009, not 2008 as I thought.

So even if you were to discount Wiki and the Roar, the BBC just made up the pre-gripping piece in their article dated Friday 21st Jan 2000?

I suspect that there is a minor difference in the definitions here

Perhaps the IRB/WR is a better source of what rugby laws are than the BBC would be my take.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:55 pm Again, it's pretty easy to see the prevalence of lifting during Kay's first few years in international rugby. YouTube is right there.

You can see UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster on YouTube as well.

Out of interest, I just looked up the France game from that world cup. Very first lineout, Kay takes it



If lifting was illegal, it was illegal only in name. A world away from the lineouts you saw in the 90s

Prior to 1999, lineout players were required to jump unassisted to catch the ball. Since 1999, the International Rugby Board allows teammates to lift and support players jumping for the ball as long as the support is provided above the shorts when from behind or above the thighs when from the front (World Rugby, 2016)

As near as I can tell, all the ELVs did was relax/remove some of the limitations of where/how the lifting was performed, as the illustrations for law 18 clearly show that below the thigh pre-gripping is now permitted

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:05 pm

Prior to 1999, lineout players were required to jump unassisted to catch the ball. Since 1999, the International Rugby Board allows teammates to lift and support players jumping for the ball as long as the support is provided above the shorts when from behind or above the thighs when from the front (World Rugby, 2016)

As near as I can tell, all the ELVs did was relax/remove some of the limitations of where/how the lifting was performed, as the illustrations for law 18 clearly show that below the thigh pre-gripping is now permitted

It's Law 19 that allows pre-gripping and lifting.

Law 19 – Pre-gripping of lineout jumpers allowed
Law 19 – Lifting in the lineout allowed

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:03 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:55 pm Again, it's pretty easy to see the prevalence of lifting during Kay's first few years in international rugby. YouTube is right there.

You can see UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster on YouTube as well.

Ah yes, lifting in rugby pre-ELVs is a conspiracy now

This thread's taking a familiar turn


first lineout I can find in the extended highlights of 2002's England v Australia

Second one from that game

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:08 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:05 pm

Prior to 1999, lineout players were required to jump unassisted to catch the ball. Since 1999, the International Rugby Board allows teammates to lift and support players jumping for the ball as long as the support is provided above the shorts when from behind or above the thighs when from the front (World Rugby, 2016)

As near as I can tell, all the ELVs did was relax/remove some of the limitations of where/how the lifting was performed, as the illustrations for law 18 clearly show that below the thigh pre-gripping is now permitted

It's Law 19 that allows pre-gripping and lifting.

Law 19 – Pre-gripping of lineout jumpers allowed
Law 19 – Lifting in the lineout allowed

Sorry, it WAS law 19. It's now law 18. Law 19 is now the scrum

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:03 pm Out of interest, I just looked up the France game from that world cup. Very first lineout, Kay takes it



If lifting was illegal, it was illegal only in name. A world away from the lineouts you saw in the 90s

Odd how all those lineout jumpers who aren't allowed to be lifted or gripped have tape on their legs at exactly the spot where their teammates happen to heartily but coincidentally slap them on the thighs as they jump six feet straight up in the air.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:11 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:03 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:55 pm Again, it's pretty easy to see the prevalence of lifting during Kay's first few years in international rugby. YouTube is right there.

You can see UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster on YouTube as well.

Ah yes, lifting in rugby pre-ELVs is a conspiracy now

This thread's taking a familiar turn


first lineout I can find in the extended highlights of 2002's England v Australia

If it's a conspiracy then the IRB/WR are in on it because that's who in citing. Trawling for screen-grab stills on YouTube?

See if you can see anyone on the grassy knoll if you can. Cheers.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:15 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:11 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:03 pm

You can see UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster on YouTube as well.

Ah yes, lifting in rugby pre-ELVs is a conspiracy now

This thread's taking a familiar turn


first lineout I can find in the extended highlights of 2002's England v Australia

If it's a conspiracy then the IRB/WR are in on it because that's who in citing. Trawling for screen-grab stills on YouTube?

See if you can see anyone on the grassy knoll if you can. Cheers.

I provided evidence. You claimed it was just a single event and that all you had to do was fine a single piece where it wasn't true to counter me (still waiting, btw). So, fair enough, I provided more evidence. Now you're claiming that... what? The screen grabs are misleading? I'm just looking for random matches from the time period on youtube and screenshotting the lineouts.

(11:30 if it doesn't link properly)

(3:58 if it doesn't link properly)

I have yet to find an example where teams aren't lifting in these matches.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:18 pm [Now you're claiming that... what?

Not claiming, citing.

Citing the IRB.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:20 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:18 pm [Now you're claiming that... what?

Not claiming, citing.

Citing the IRB.

Who's Saint quoting?

Look, I understand that the ELVs confuse matters. But it's patently obvious that lifting in the lineout was a thing after 1999.

This was IRB Law 19.9 up until 2009.

(f) Levering on a team-mate. A jumping line-out player must not use a team-mate as a support to jump.

Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(g) Lifting. A line-out player must not lift a team-mate.

Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(h) Support before jumping. A player must not support a team-mate before the team-mate has jumped.

Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(i) Jumping or supporting before the ball is thrown. A player must not jump for the ball or support any player before the ball has left the hands of the player throwing it in.

Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(j) Pre-grip below the waist. A player must not pre-grip any team-mate below the waist.

Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(k) Support of a player. A player must not support a jumping team-mate below the shorts from behind or below the thighs from the front.

Penalty: Penalty Kick on the 15-metre line

(l) Lowering a player. Players who support a jumping team-mate must lower that player to the ground as soon as the ball has been won by a player of either team.

Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

There are laws and laws. For instance I've been told, but perhaps as a joke, that scrum feeds should be straight

Why are you arguing this? It's clear that players were lifted/supported/thrown/thrusted skywards in the period that was being discussed. That's it. Stop worrying about the idiot and stop quoting him :).

from 1992, when I returned to rugby, the rule was that you had to jump but that your team could support you up there. In practice, they actually lifted you though you did jump yourself first (much as they do now). I was popular with my props as I was light for a lock and they could almost throw me in the air. It may not have been strictly legal but it was allowed and I don't even remember any comments about it.

I can remember crowds (very small crowds) would shout if you weren't their team and your side won a lineout. In one game in 1996 I even started walking to have an argument about it with the crowd and had someone on my team wander across put a hand on the shoulder and suggest that wasn't a good idea to wander over and start discussing lifting Vs supporting

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:42 pm Why are you arguing this? It's clear that players were lifted/supported/thrown/thrusted skywards in the period that was being discussed. That's it. Stop worrying about the idiot and stop quoting him :).

I'm quoting the IRB/WR


HTH

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:13 pm In the meantime, Premiership KO tomorrow night with Saints making their Enya tour. Saints CEO predicting that Covid will result in Saints posting a £15 million loss. In more positive news, Wood, Waller, and Mallinder all recovered from long term injuries

Saints team:

SALE SHARKS vs NORTHAMPTON SAINTS
Gallagher Premiership Rugby, Round 1
Friday 20 November 2020
AJ Bell Stadium
Kick-off: 8pm

15 George Furbank
14 Ahsee Tuala
13 Matt Proctor
12 Piers Francis
11 Tom Collins
10 James Grayson
9 Henry Taylor

1 Alex Waller (c)
2 James Fish
3 Paul Hill
4 Alex Moon
5 Api Ratuniyarawa
6 Nick Isiekwe
7 Tom Wood
8 Teimana Harrison

Replacements:
16 Reece Marshall
17 Nick Auterac
18 Owen Franks
19 David Ribbans
20 JJ Tonks
21 Alex Mitchell
22 Fraser Dingwall
23 Harry Mallinder

Referee: Ian Tempest
Assistant referees: Hamish Smales & Wayne Falla
No.4: Darryl Chapman
TMO: Trevor Fisher

Not available due to injury:
Mikey Haywood (knee), Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (achilles), Rory Hutchinson (ankle), Courtney Lawes (ankle), Ollie Sleightholme (ankle), and Kayde Sylvester (achilles)

Anyway, the Sale team appears to be somewhat lacking in EQP

Sale: L James; Solomona, S James, J V Rensburg, Hammersley; MacGinty, De Klerk; Morozov, Van der Merwe, Oosthuizen, Wiese, JL du Preez, Ross (capt), B Curry, D du Preez.

Replacements: Langdon, Rodd, Cooper-Woolley, Phillips, Postlethwaite, Cliff, R du Preez, Jarde

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:13 pm In the meantime, Premiership KO tomorrow night with Saints making their Enya tour. Saints CEO predicting that Covid will result in Saints posting a £15 million loss. In more positive news, Wood, Waller, and Mallinder all recovered from long term injuries

Saints team:

SALE SHARKS vs NORTHAMPTON SAINTS
Gallagher Premiership Rugby, Round 1
Friday 20 November 2020
AJ Bell Stadium
Kick-off: 8pm

15 George Furbank
14 Ahsee Tuala
13 Matt Proctor
12 Piers Francis
11 Tom Collins
10 James Grayson
9 Henry Taylor

1 Alex Waller (c)
2 James Fish
3 Paul Hill
4 Alex Moon
5 Api Ratuniyarawa
6 Nick Isiekwe
7 Tom Wood
8 Teimana Harrison

Replacements:
16 Reece Marshall
17 Nick Auterac
18 Owen Franks
19 David Ribbans
20 JJ Tonks
21 Alex Mitchell
22 Fraser Dingwall
23 Harry Mallinder

Referee: Ian Tempest
Assistant referees: Hamish Smales & Wayne Falla
No.4: Darryl Chapman
TMO: Trevor Fisher

Not available due to injury:
Mikey Haywood (knee), Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (achilles), Rory Hutchinson (ankle), Courtney Lawes (ankle), Ollie Sleightholme (ankle), and Kayde Sylvester (achilles)

Guess no-one under 40 gets the Enya tour joke?

It's an old joke!

The more I look at the bailout the more I feel rugby is exceptionally lucky. Would suggest the RFU need to think very carefully about what they're doing with their part - HMG's not unreasonable stance that football is wealthy enough to fund the pro clubs is something that can also be levelled at a national team that pay £22k a pop. I doubt there'll be a second tranche.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:01 amIt's an old joke!

Still worthwhile

Also announced - Boyd extends contract till the end of 21/22 season

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:32 am The more I look at the bailout the more I feel rugby is exceptionally lucky. Would suggest the RFU need to think very carefully about what they're doing with their part - HMG's not unreasonable stance that football is wealthy enough to fund the pro clubs is something that can also be levelled at a national team that pay £22k a pop. I doubt there'll be a second tranche.

Especially when you take into account the parlous state of the finances of most lower league football clubs.

Wasps and Bristol teams for Sunday's game





Doesn't look like the strongest Bristol team, so you'd think it should be a home win for Wasps. Be interesting to see how we get on without Robson pulling the strings.

Saints defense starts the season as they finished the last. Completely MIA

Good to see Saints' defence is as shit as ever.

Any streams for any games? Found quins exe in French (nice quality), but would rather saints.

Lovely try from Sam Simmonds for Ex off 1st phase.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:13 pm Lovely try from Sam Simmonds for Ex off 1st phase.

Danny Care bottled that so badly

Touch judge completely ignores the ball going around 3m forward and only puts his flag out when it goes into touch. Incredible.

Saints call for the scrum and that goes about as well as you might expect

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:14 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:13 pm Lovely try from Sam Simmonds for Ex off 1st phase.

Danny Care bottled that so badly

Ha. TBF, I don't think he was making it and was worried about taking out Earle who was still in with a sniff of catching him