The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

Willis was already playing brilliantly for Toulouse the last time he was with England and he wasn't tearing up trees. He absolutely would be a good option, but his international career so far does not suggest he is actually better than the alternatives, just a similarly talented player with some real strengths and a few weaknesses.

Also how quickly we forget that Mercer looked world class in France and shit the bed repeatedly in the premiership.

[Tichtheid]

I think that’s a bit defensive PB. I suspect the France squad at the World Championships will be rather different.

Surely the best indicator for an international selector is club form? Willis has been playing very well, imo better than his rivals for the England shirt. He’s doing so in a side that would most likely beat the international teams outside the top ten and give a hell of a scare to many within it.

I prefer Scotland to play England without Jack Willis than with him. It’s an unavoidable circumstance that he can’t play and I understand the reasons, in the longer term view it’s better for England to keep their players in the Premiership.

Whilst Toulouse are clearly a very talented side and Willis is a fine player, I think it’s very hard to say what they’d be like in a test match where for some players and systems things just don’t click for whatever reason. They’re used to bullying the teams they play in a way they wouldn’t be able to at a higher level.

I don't want to labour this too much, but I will just say that Toulouse have two very experienced French international props in their starting lineup who are both in the 6N (Baille and Aldegheri), they have the two current hookers for France, probably the starting French locking combo when Flament is fit, the starting blindside for France, plus Jack Willis and Alexandre Roumat, another full French international.
edit - I forgot Jelonch in the backrow too, another in the French 6N squad.

Behind them is a ridiculous backline.

[TartanBear]

Expecting a narrow England win today. Hoping we’re going to see the “Smith Show” go off like a grenade. Going to be a fantastic game - conditions obviously poor for both sides, but slight advantage to England IMO.

[JM2K6]

Expecting a narrow England win today. Hoping we’re going to see the “Smith Show” go off like a grenade. Going to be a fantastic game - conditions obviously poor for both sides, but slight advantage to England IMO.

Yeah, it could be interesting. Fin is a superb passer of the ball, is slightly better at the cross kicks, and makes good decisions even when his team is under the pump. I don't think anyone's too worried about what Marcus can do with ball in hand so if we can actually get and keep some ball, both might benefit from each other's presence

Or it might be a total shitshow, but those are also funny to watch, so hey

Frogs are still massive favourites, though

[TartanBear]

Expecting a narrow England win today. Hoping we’re going to see the “Smith Show” go off like a grenade. Going to be a fantastic game - conditions obviously poor for both sides, but slight advantage to England IMO.

Yeah, it could be interesting. Fin is a superb passer of the ball, is slightly better at the cross kicks, and makes good decisions even when his team is under the pump. I don't think anyone's too worried about what Marcus can do with ball in hand so if we can actually get and keep some ball, both might benefit from each other's presence

Or it might be a total shitshow, but those are also funny to watch, so hey

Frogs are still massive favourites, though

Yes, favourites for sure. Not sure “massive”, but understand why that’s the English view. I’d love to see Marcus coming into the line and him and Fin also swapping at first receiver. They could really cause havoc and stress the French defence, which may not be set for chaos. England needs to roll the dice.

[Poshprop]

Anyone else watching this game on ITV wondering if they've put Audio Descriptive on with the commentator describing haircuts? His commentary is mad. It's like he's on a KPI for getting points if information over

[Poshprop]

Right. This one is on me. Turns out my 93 year old dad did turn on the audio descriptive commentary. Apologies

[Simian]

[TartanBear]

well done England! Now it’s a wee bit more ominous as a Scotland fan…. This has been coming.

[JM2K6]

Unexpected result, but especially so given how genuinely dreadful we were for a big chunk of that game. Well done to the Saints boys, the replacements, and Curry & Earl for seeing that one through with an improved 2nd half.

Astonishing profligacy by the extremely mentally weak French.

[el capitan]

Proper banter win. Total cripple fight from both teams, France should have been out of sight in the first hour, and you could see that coming

Tbf whilst there was still a ton of shit in that last quarter... There was some intent and phases of play towards the end. And the bench seemed to bring something for once.

5 more years for Scabbers.

[Oxbow]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

[sockwithaticket]

The answer seems to be 'put more Saints in the backline', so DIngwall to 12 next game.

Genuinely a bit stunned that we pulled that off and with four good tries too. Still an awful lot to work on (lineout!), but stopping the rot with the losses should be a massive boost for the team.

[Kawazaki]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

Only if Daly is injured.

[JM2K6]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

I think everyone would rather we play with a proper fullback and a 10 on the bench.

Now that we've won and I can't be accused of being unfair... Fin's first half was the sort of thing that would've seen pages of scorn aimed at Marcus. Charged down straight off, multiple dreadful kicks from hand, a few fumbles, and let Dupont get away from him when that pass was grounded which led to their opening try. Fair play to him for admitting it in the interview!

Second half? Far more like the actual Fin Smith. Pin point cross kick for Freeman, the usual smooth passing, nailed his kicks and made his tackles. Couple of aimless kicks aside, a complete turnaround.

Is that enough to be nailed on? Had some of the best players in the world not inexplicably blown 3-4 tries with simple errors, we could've been out of the game at half time...

Definitely think he should start against Scotland. Would be terrible man management to do anything else, but regardless I don't think Borthwick will change a winning team.

[TartanBear]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

I think everyone would rather we play with a proper fullback and a 10 on the bench.

Now that we've won and I can't be accused of being unfair... Fin's first half was the sort of thing that would've seen pages of scorn aimed at Marcus. Charged down straight off, multiple dreadful kicks from hand, a few fumbles, and let Dupont get away from him when that pass was grounded which led to their opening try. Fair play to him for admitting it in the interview!

Second half? Far more like the actual Fin Smith. Pin point cross kick for Freeman, the usual smooth passing, nailed his kicks and made his tackles. Couple of aimless kicks aside, a complete turnaround.

Is that enough to be nailed on? Had some of the best players in the world not inexplicably blown 3-4 tries with simple errors, we could've been out of the game at half time...

Definitely think he should start against Scotland. Would be terrible man management to do anything else, but regardless I don't think Borthwick will change a winning team.

No dog in this fight. Fin is your man. Not quite the magician as is Marcus, but he will help England win. He’ll also develop as his confidence increases wearing the starting jersey and if the Saints backs continue on form and being selected, it looks good for England.

[JM2K6]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

I think everyone would rather we play with a proper fullback and a 10 on the bench.

Now that we've won and I can't be accused of being unfair... Fin's first half was the sort of thing that would've seen pages of scorn aimed at Marcus. Charged down straight off, multiple dreadful kicks from hand, a few fumbles, and let Dupont get away from him when that pass was grounded which led to their opening try. Fair play to him for admitting it in the interview!

Second half? Far more like the actual Fin Smith. Pin point cross kick for Freeman, the usual smooth passing, nailed his kicks and made his tackles. Couple of aimless kicks aside, a complete turnaround.

Is that enough to be nailed on? Had some of the best players in the world not inexplicably blown 3-4 tries with simple errors, we could've been out of the game at half time...

Definitely think he should start against Scotland. Would be terrible man management to do anything else, but regardless I don't think Borthwick will change a winning team.

No dog in this fight. Fin is your man. Not quite the magician as is Marcus, but he will help England win. He’ll also develop as his confidence increases wearing the starting jersey and if the Saints backs continue on form and being selected, it looks good for England.

He certainly has the talent and should be given the opportunity to prove it (as should've happened before now against weaker opposition, but Borthwick is a coward). Just seems a little premature given his first half to claim he's the long term option without any caveats.

Beating the French gets you a lot of credit in the bank though

[Raggs]

Whilst Furbank is broken, I'd stick with Smith at 15. He did well. France tend to kick long rather than competing, but he did well. They definitely then link up well.

Players need to trust the inside man a bit more, especially if it's Lawrence, he's unlikely to get done for pace.

Baxter came on with a bang too.

[JM2K6]

Whilst Furbank is broken, I'd stick with Smith at 15. He did well. France tend to kick long rather than competing, but he did well. They definitely then link up well.

Players need to trust the inside man a bit more, especially if it's Lawrence, he's unlikely to get done for pace.

Baxter came on with a bang too.

Hendy or Carpenter need some game time this 6N, though.

[Paddington Bear]

Fin Smith was excellent in the second half and adjusted fast to test rugby. He plays close to the line and brings along the backline with him. He’s earned a chance to run this side for a run of games.

Marcus Smith was brave but really poor. He’s not a 15 so he shouldn’t take all the blame but he also kicked poorly which is inexcusable.

[lemonhead]

Fin Smith was excellent in the second half and adjusted fast to test rugby. He plays close to the line and brings along the backline with him. He’s earned a chance to run this side for a run of games.

Marcus Smith was brave but really poor. He’s not a 15 so he shouldn’t take all the blame but he also kicked poorly which is inexcusable.

Unhelpful but from outside, you did well with both on field and Smith the Steadier at 10.

Had Smith the Unquiet not been around I don't think there's enough batshit freneticism to put the wind up France. Mistakes aplenty, shouldn't have had the tee so long (and really feared ye lads had shat the bed on 66mins) but otherwise both were assets.

[Kawazaki]

Fin Smith was excellent in the second half and adjusted fast to test rugby. He plays close to the line and brings along the backline with him. He’s earned a chance to run this side for a run of games.

Marcus Smith was brave but really poor. He’s not a 15 so he shouldn’t take all the blame but he also kicked poorly which is inexcusable.

Fin at 10 gave England much needed shape and direction. He looks a far more natural 10. Marcus is a very skilled rugby player but he's not a leader or smart tactician, he creates personal moments but he doesn't make those around him better players. A pity but he's reached his ceiling.

I'm glad Daly showed what a proper 15 can do at the end, hopefully it spells the end for Steward who simply isn't a test standard 15.

[Oxbow]

Daly came on for Slade didn't he?

[sockwithaticket]

Daly came on for Slade didn't he?

Yeah, which I assume means we went with 12. Lawrence 13. Freeman 14. Daly for his time on the pitch.

[JM2K6]

Daly came on for Slade didn't he?

Yeah, which I assume means we went with 12. Lawrence 13. Freeman 14. Daly for his time on the pitch.

I assumed he went to 13

[Paddington Bear]

Daly clearly has his issues but my goodness that was an excellent line and exactly what we’ve been crying out for from an experienced player off the bench. Adding a winner today to his one in Cardiff 2017 places him into English rugby lore in a way I am deeply happy about

[tc27]

Daly clearly has his issues but my goodness that was an excellent line and exactly what we’ve been crying out for from an experienced player off the bench. Adding a winner today to his one in Cardiff 2017 places him into English rugby lore in a way I am deeply happy about

Yeah really enjoyed how well timed his transfer from keeping the blindside defence honest to being a runner off Smiths shoulder was.

[Ovals]

Daly came on for Slade didn't he?

Yeah, which I assume means we went with 12. Lawrence 13. Freeman 14. Daly for his time on the pitch.

I assumed he went to 13

Daly came on, on the left Wing - that's where he was stationed in the lead up to his try. I think Freeman moved into the centre.

[JM2K6]

Yeah, which I assume means we went with 12. Lawrence 13. Freeman 14. Daly for his time on the pitch.

I assumed he went to 13

Daly came on, on the left Wing - that's where he was stationed in the lead up to his try. I think Freeman moved into the centre.

Cheers

[Deveron Boy]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

[Kawazaki]

Daly clearly has his issues but my goodness that was an excellent line and exactly what we’ve been crying out for from an experienced player off the bench. Adding a winner today to his one in Cardiff 2017 places him into English rugby lore in a way I am deeply happy about

Yep. Daly's maligned by people who don't know a proper player when they see one. Pleased he showed his class today to sit the haters down.

[Kawazaki]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

He's too strong in his criticism but his instincts on MS are proving correct.

[Paddington Bear]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

[Kawazaki]

Blimey, even Marcus Smith's second biggest fanboy reckons Fin has usurped him now...

Fin settles the Smith fly half debate after 15 ice-cold minutes

Fin Smith teed up Tommy Freeman brilliantly to score, played the pass for Elliot Daly’s late try and kicked the winning points; he may have won the battle for the England No10 shirt

https://archive.ph/f15J7

[Slick]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

[dpedin]

Looks like Finn not Marcus as the Smith at 10 going forward? He brought a shape and structure to the English play that Marcus has struggled to bring. He wasnt perfect but looked far more composed there. Not sure Marcus was all that tidy at 15 either, he looked a bit exposed at times with his positioning, etc. Although a better option that Steward there must be other EQ 15s that can be given slot and gain experience? Marcus is now an impact 10/15 off the bench?

If the French hadn't washed their hands in baby oil before the game then we might be having a slightly different discussion, they should have been 20-30 points ahead at half time, however thems the breaks!

[Kawazaki]

Looks like Finn not Marcus as the Smith at 10 going forward? He brought a shape and structure to the English play that Marcus has struggled to bring. He wasnt perfect but looked far more composed there. Not sure Marcus was all that tidy at 15 either, he looked a bit exposed at times with his positioning, etc. Although a better option that Steward there must be other EQ 15s that can be given slot and gain experience? Marcus is now an impact 10/15 off the bench?

If the French hadn't washed their hands in baby oil before the game then we might be having a slightly different discussion, they should have been 20-30 points ahead at half time, however thems the breaks!

Marcus Smith is a very good rugby player, definitely test quality, but he tends to create Marcus Smith moments rather than connected team moments and that's always been the problem because he plays at Flyhalf. He's a much much better fullback than Freddie Steward is though so, if only for that reason alone, he should learn more fullback ploys and stay in the England squad. The trouble is, Elliot Daly is a much better 23 than Marcus is and, if we're being honest, Daly is a better 15 as well - as are, perhaps, 1 or 2 other players not even in the England squad.

[sockwithaticket]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

The difference a narrow win makes. If that game had been yet another close loss his performance would be under a lot more scrutiny.

As it is, English rugby's obsession with the 10 shirt and the euphoria of managing to beat tier 1 opposition mean he's now the second coming of Christ.

[Ovals]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

I really like Finn Smith - but his performance yesterday wasn't that great - he was pretty anonymous for 50/60 minutes before getting it together for the final 20mins or so. How he was awarded PotM, ahead of Curry, was truly odd.

He's got a decent opportunity to nail the position down with the next 3 games against opposition we have a good chance of beating. But, knowing how fickle the supporters and media are, I doubt it will be long before one indifferent performance will see this latest bubble burst. If we lose to the Scots, everyone will forget the golden 20 mins he had in this game.

[Kawazaki]

I'll tell you an England player who is getting on my radar - for all the wrong reasons - Ollie Lawrence. He's a media darling and forum favourite but his workrate is actually quite poor, particularly in defence.