NPR

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 3:07 pm**

SaintK wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 2:52 pm 28-12 to England A
Should have been more with second half dominance
Fisilau looked very good coming on for Barbeary

Decent win in horrible conditions - suffered from the forwards having white line fever when we should have spun the ball out, having sucked in the Irish defenders. But some very good individual performances - even JVP looked quite bright - and we didn't let them run around us in the wide channels - defence looked well organised in open play - put huge pressure on them without getting too narrow.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 7:10 pm**

Rewatched the game and honestly think some of the criticism is overblown. A forgettable rather than poor performance that involved a lot of character and guts

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:22 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 7:10 pm Rewatched the game and honestly think some of the criticism is overblown. A forgettable rather than poor performance that involved a lot of character and guts

Defence out side was poor in places, but overall a lot of good defending in our 22, pushing the attack back.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:50 pm**

The one out stuff was good, we generally didn't overcommit and kept the one out/pick and drive runners bottled up. It was the wide defence that was the real problem.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:56 pm**

It’s a team that wants to win and play for each other as well, which we shouldn’t take for granted. Excellently led by Itoje who seems to be hitting a better balance of risk reward (and getting the final kicked moved was a phenomenal bit of shithousing).

It wouldn’t change the fact that the attack was considered largely surplus to requirements, but I do wonder how the narrative of this game shifts if we don’t give away a dumb lineout pen after a superb defensive stand c.75 mins, closing out the game and winning 16/19-10

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:13 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:56 pm It’s a team that wants to win and play for each other as well, which we shouldn’t take for granted. Excellently led by Itoje who seems to be hitting a better balance of risk reward (and getting the final kicked moved was a phenomenal bit of shithousing).

It wouldn’t change the fact that the attack was considered largely surplus to requirements, but I do wonder how the narrative of this game shifts if we don’t give away a dumb lineout pen after a superb defensive stand c.75 mins, closing out the game and winning 16/19-10

The midfield and wide defence are still poor, which is gifting teams openings and allowing teams with good backs too much time and space - as we saw with France and Scotland, although at we did close the door a bit in each of those matches

The silver lining I see is that we've not got our fourth* defensive coach in 2 seasons fully in post yet (ignoring whether we think he's the right man for the job) - you'd hope that midfield and wide defence would be addressed, as it's not something we've traditionally been poor at.

* it is four, isn't it? whoever was in at the end of Eddie's reign (and noting he had shedloads such as Gustard and Brett Hodgson), and Sinfield, Felix Jones and now El-Abd under Borthwick

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:20 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:56 pm It’s a team that wants to win and play for each other as well, which we shouldn’t take for granted. Excellently led by Itoje who seems to be hitting a better balance of risk reward (and getting the final kicked moved was a phenomenal bit of shithousing).

Russell should have been allowed to take the kick again, going by the laws of the game and this time from in line to where the try was scored.

The opposing team at a conversion

8.14 All players retire to their try line and do not overstep that line until the kicker moves in any direction to begin their approach to kick. When the kicker does this, they may charge or jump to prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players in these actions.

Sanction: If the opposing team at a conversion attempt infringes but the kick is successful, the goal stands. If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker retakes the conversion and the opposing team is not allowed to charge. When another kick is allowed, the kicker may repeat all the preparations. The kicker may change the type of kick.

The spot Russell kicked from was over a metre in from where vdM scored, Itoje was up in the ref's face whilst the clock was ticking down on Russell.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:34 pm**

Tichtheid wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:20 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:56 pm It’s a team that wants to win and play for each other as well, which we shouldn’t take for granted. Excellently led by Itoje who seems to be hitting a better balance of risk reward (and getting the final kicked moved was a phenomenal bit of shithousing).

Russell should have been allowed to take the kick again, going by the laws of the game and this time from in line to where the try was scored.

The opposing team at a conversion

8.14 All players retire to their try line and do not overstep that line until the kicker moves in any direction to begin their approach to kick. When the kicker does this, they may charge or jump to prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players in these actions.

Sanction: If the opposing team at a conversion attempt infringes but the kick is successful, the goal stands. If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker retakes the conversion and the opposing team is not allowed to charge. When another kick is allowed, the kicker may repeat all the preparations. The kicker may change the type of kick.

The spot Russell kicked from was over a metre in from where vdM scored, Itoje was up in the ref's face whilst the clock was ticking down on Russell.

I’m well aware of the law around this, it’s why I’m saying it was a phenomenal piece of shithousing. ‘Up in the ref’s face’ is something of an exaggeration mind

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:55 pm**

Looking at the Scottish thread and this discourse about the conversion, it's starting to get a bit ref blamey. French refs are random and not particularly good, sure we could scour the tape for some instances when England were hard done by too.

It's not the ref's fault Scotland bombed their first half dominance or their kicker missed 3 from 3.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 3:01 pm**

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:55 pm Looking at the Scottish thread and this discourse about the conversion, it's starting to get a bit ref blamey. French refs are random and not particularly good, sure we could scour the tape for some instances when England were hard done by too.

It's not the ref's fault Scotland bombed their first half dominance or their kicker missed 3 from 3.

I really don’t think he was as bad as is being made out and still images are a poor way of understanding what went on in contact situations

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 3:45 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 3:01 pm
sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:55 pm Looking at the Scottish thread and this discourse about the conversion, it's starting to get a bit ref blamey. French refs are random and not particularly good, sure we could scour the tape for some instances when England were hard done by too.

It's not the ref's fault Scotland bombed their first half dominance or their kicker missed 3 from 3.
I really don’t think he was as bad as is being made out and still images are a poor way of understanding what went on in contact situations

In any game, decided by so few points, you can find ref's decisions that would probably have turned the result. But you really shouldn't complain when the win was still so clearly in your own team's power to achieve.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 3:54 pm**

I found some decisions at the breakdown a bit peculiar, but it went for both sides.

I view complaints about 'the ball wasn't grounded' in the same way I view the 'Mark Cueto foot in touch to lose a WC final' and the 'conceding Saffa scrum penalty to lose a WC semi'. The ref was probably right, not enough to say he wasn't, and that's the way it goes.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:04 pm**

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:55 pm Looking at the Scottish thread and this discourse about the conversion, it's starting to get a bit ref blamey. French refs are random and not particularly good, sure we could scour the tape for some instances when England were hard done by too.

It's not the ref's fault Scotland bombed their first half dominance or their kicker missed 3 from 3.

Agree.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:13 pm**

My Scottish family seemed to have taken the defeat in good grace as has in here from what I can tell - faceybook seems to be quite different though with lots of whinging about the ref and non grounding and bias toward England. If Scotland had won, wouldn’t there have been as much red whinging about missed fwd passes in the Scot’s tries ?

Seems easier to ignore anything on social media if it doesn’t have breasts & lingerie, just too myopic and extreme

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:22 pm**

Yeeb wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:13 pm My Scottish family seemed to have taken the defeat in good grace as has in here from what I can tell - faceybook seems to be quite different though with lots of whinging about the ref and non grounding and bias toward England. If Scotland had won, wouldn’t there have been as much red whinging about missed fwd passes in the Scot’s tries ?

Seems easier to ignore anything on social media if it doesn’t have breasts & lingerie, just too myopic and extreme

As you say you can pick apart the ref’s performance from both sides, Ashman double pumps the line out at the start of the passage of play where VdM scores. England got called on that to kill off our chances of beating South Africa.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:28 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:22 pm
Yeeb wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:13 pm My Scottish family seemed to have taken the defeat in good grace as has in here from what I can tell - faceybook seems to be quite different though with lots of whinging about the ref and non grounding and bias toward England. If Scotland had won, wouldn’t there have been as much red whinging about missed fwd passes in the Scot’s tries ?

Seems easier to ignore anything on social media if it doesn’t have breasts & lingerie, just too myopic and extreme

As you say you can pick apart the ref’s performance from both sides, Ashman double pumps the line out at the start of the passage of play where VdM scores. England got called on that to kill off our chances of beating South Africa.

Some folks are calling for the ref to be stood down he was so bad!

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:29 pm**

There's an obvious and fair way to settle all this - let's replay the match.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:34 pm**

SaintK wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:28 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:22 pm
Yeeb wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:13 pm My Scottish family seemed to have taken the defeat in good grace as has in here from what I can tell - faceybook seems to be quite different though with lots of whinging about the ref and non grounding and bias toward England. If Scotland had won, wouldn’t there have been as much red whinging about missed fwd passes in the Scot’s tries ?

Seems easier to ignore anything on social media if it doesn’t have breasts & lingerie, just too myopic and extreme

As you say you can pick apart the ref’s performance from both sides, Ashman double pumps the line out at the start of the passage of play where VdM scores. England got called on that to kill off our chances of beating South Africa.
Some folks are calling for the ref to be stood down he was so bad!

To be fair, I'm sure I muttered plenty worse things about Steve Walsh.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:47 pm**

inactionman wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:34 pm
SaintK wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:28 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:22 pm

As you say you can pick apart the ref’s performance from both sides, Ashman double pumps the line out at the start of the passage of play where VdM scores. England got called on that to kill off our chances of beating South Africa.
Some folks are calling for the ref to be stood down he was so bad!
To be fair, I'm sure I muttered plenty worse things about Steve Walsh.

Warranted, in that case. He's the only ref who we can legitimately call biased after his 'Fucking English cunt' (directed at an Irish player because he's thick as well as a twat) on-field outburst. Big anti-Pom chip on his shoulder.

The worst you can say about French refs is their insouciance and indifference leads to chaos and things being missed, but it typically impacts both sides the same.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 5:05 pm**

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:47 pm
inactionman wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:34 pm
SaintK wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:28 pm
Some folks are calling for the ref to be stood down he was so bad!
To be fair, I'm sure I muttered plenty worse things about Steve Walsh.
Warranted, in that case. He's the only ref who we can legitimately call biased after his 'Fucking English cunt' (directed at an Irish player because he's thick as well as a twat) on-field outburst. Big anti-Pom chip on his shoulder.

The worst you can say about French refs is their insouciance and indifference leads to chaos and things being missed, but it typically impacts both sides the same.

I just don't see the point in moaning about the ref - it has never changed the result and 99% of the time it's just a one eyed view and misses the decisions/errors that went the other way (I always think the ref is biased against us). It also make you look like bad losers - which, in most cases, is exactly what the moaners are. Just move on.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 5:10 pm**

So in conclusion, we have yet again won the moral victory and remain on course for the moral slam.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 5:51 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 5:10 pm So in conclusion, we have yet again won the moral victory and remain on course for the moral slam.

Let’s not make hasty calls here

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:31 pm**

Woodward article on the two Smiths.

https://archive.ph/VcuXg

tl:dr

Marcus is up shit creek as he's not good enough to play at 15 and Fin is a better 10.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 8:51 pm**

Ovals wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 5:05 pm
sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:47 pm
inactionman wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:34 pm

To be fair, I'm sure I muttered plenty worse things about Steve Walsh.
Warranted, in that case. He's the only ref who we can legitimately call biased after his 'Fucking English cunt' (directed at an Irish player because he's thick as well as a twat) on-field outburst. Big anti-Pom chip on his shoulder.

The worst you can say about French refs is their insouciance and indifference leads to chaos and things being missed, but it typically impacts both sides the same.
I just don't see the point in moaning about the ref - it has never changed the result and 99% of the time it's just a one eyed view and misses the decisions/errors that went the other way (I always think the ref is biased against us). It also make you look like bad losers - which, in most cases, is exactly what the moaners are. Just move on.

I’m not moaning about the ref on Saturday but I also think there is a big difference in saying the ref got some calls wrong (of course they fucking did, it’s never going to be perfect and mad to think it would be) and calling a ref biased, which I just don’t think any are.

Also worth saying, I don’t think that’s what you meant anyway

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 9:02 pm**

I'd hate to play wing for this team because your job is either kick chasing or auxiliary forward on the crash.

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 10:57 am**

Exeter Chiefs giving the salary cap a bashing
Australian centre Len Ikitau to join them imidiately after the Lions tests
Joseph Dweba, Springbok hooker to join for the start of next season. Which is probably why Frost is moving on.

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 11:13 am**

SaintK wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 10:57 am Exeter Chiefs giving the salary cap a bashing
Australian centre Len Ikitau to join them imidiately after the Lions tests
Joseph Dweba, Springbok hooker to join for the start of next season. Which is probably why Frost is moving on.

I'd assumed Chiefs are a way off the cap at the moment? They lost a load of players over the last few seasons - some B&I lions included - and largely replaced them via academy.

A fair few Aussies linked to or joining Chiefs, they've got Sio and I heard Heaven (who plays in Oz) is also joining - he's also a hooker but is a fair bit younger than Dweba so would presumably be going as second-fiddle. I'd also heard some talk of Cowan-Dickie going back, which was probably just Exeter fans adding two and two to make 5, and in any case you'd think signing Dweba would kybosh that.

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:42 pm**

Kawazaki wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:31 pm Woodward article on the two Smiths.

https://archive.ph/VcuXg

tl:dr

Marcus is up shit creek as he's not good enough to play at 15 and Fin is a better 10.

I'd have to say I'm not sold on Marcus at 15, but if Clive thinks it's a bad idea it's probably worth giving it a few more games, especially if Furbank is still out

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:44 pm**

Kawazaki wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:31 pm Woodward article on the two Smiths.

https://archive.ph/VcuXg

tl:dr

Marcus is up shit creek as he's not good enough to play at 15 and Fin is a better 10.

I don't think it took Woodentop to explain this to the world. It's quite clear that Fin has one massive advantage: he can tackle. Marcus at 15 is actually a worse option than Steward.

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:48 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:44 pm
Kawazaki wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:31 pm Woodward article on the two Smiths.

https://archive.ph/VcuXg

tl:dr

Marcus is up shit creek as he's not good enough to play at 15 and Fin is a better 10.
I don't think it took Woodentop to explain this to the world. It's quite clear that Fin has one massive advantage: he can tackle. Marcus at 15 is actually a worse option than Steward.

I think Borthwick was hoping that Marcus would be a Willie Le Roux-style 15, joining the line at 10 regularly and being a second play-maker. Might work with another backline, but the current England mid-field is treacle.

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:13 pm**

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:48 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:44 pm
Kawazaki wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:31 pm Woodward article on the two Smiths.

https://archive.ph/VcuXg

tl:dr

Marcus is up shit creek as he's not good enough to play at 15 and Fin is a better 10.
I don't think it took Woodentop to explain this to the world. It's quite clear that Fin has one massive advantage: he can tackle. Marcus at 15 is actually a worse option than Steward.
I think Borthwick was hoping that Marcus would be a Willie Le Roux-style 15, joining the line at 10 regularly and being a second play-maker. Might work with another backline, but the current England mid-field is treacle.

Saviour Borthwick is about to deliver on the demand from his masters of 4/5 wins in the 6N. Hilarious that they probably set that "knowing" he'd fail and so have the excuse to get rid of him.

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:26 pm**

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:48 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:44 pm
Kawazaki wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:31 pm Woodward article on the two Smiths.

https://archive.ph/VcuXg

tl:dr

Marcus is up shit creek as he's not good enough to play at 15 and Fin is a better 10.
I don't think it took Woodentop to explain this to the world. It's quite clear that Fin has one massive advantage: he can tackle. Marcus at 15 is actually a worse option than Steward.
I think Borthwick was hoping that Marcus would be a Willie Le Roux-style 15, joining the line at 10 regularly and being a second play-maker. Might work with another backline, but the current England mid-field is treacle.

Have we ever been not-treacle ?

France would just shrug and put a winger or centre in at fullback and see how that goes , as they have a freer mentality and don’t pigeon hole players by position so much. Players like steward or slade would never have been capped had they been French .

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 3:15 pm**

Yeeb wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:26 pm
Sandstorm wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:48 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:44 pm

I don't think it took Woodentop to explain this to the world. It's quite clear that Fin has one massive advantage: he can tackle. Marcus at 15 is actually a worse option than Steward.
I think Borthwick was hoping that Marcus would be a Willie Le Roux-style 15, joining the line at 10 regularly and being a second play-maker. Might work with another backline, but the current England mid-field is treacle.
Have we ever been not-treacle ?

France would just shrug and put a winger or centre in at fullback and see how that goes , as they have a freer mentality and don’t pigeon hole players by position so much. Players like steward or slade would never have been capped had they been French .

In fairness though they tried this against us not so long ago and we stuck 40 past them

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 3:22 pm**

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 3:15 pm
Yeeb wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:26 pm
Sandstorm wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:48 pm

I think Borthwick was hoping that Marcus would be a Willie Le Roux-style 15, joining the line at 10 regularly and being a second play-maker. Might work with another backline, but the current England mid-field is treacle.
Have we ever been not-treacle ?

France would just shrug and put a winger or centre in at fullback and see how that goes , as they have a freer mentality and don’t pigeon hole players by position so much. Players like steward or slade would never have been capped had they been French .
In fairness though they tried this against us not so long ago and we stuck 40 past them

2019 full back was Ramos or Médard both played regularly at full back

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 4:21 pm**

laurent wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 3:22 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 3:15 pm
Yeeb wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:26 pm

Have we ever been not-treacle ?

France would just shrug and put a winger or centre in at fullback and see how that goes , as they have a freer mentality and don’t pigeon hole players by position so much. Players like steward or slade would never have been capped had they been French .
In fairness though they tried this against us not so long ago and we stuck 40 past them
2019 full back was Ramos or Médard both played regularly at full back

It was Huget who was utterly hopeless

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 5:15 pm**

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 9:04 pm**

Yeeb wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:26 pm
Sandstorm wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:48 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 12:44 pm

I don't think it took Woodentop to explain this to the world. It's quite clear that Fin has one massive advantage: he can tackle. Marcus at 15 is actually a worse option than Steward.
I think Borthwick was hoping that Marcus would be a Willie Le Roux-style 15, joining the line at 10 regularly and being a second play-maker. Might work with another backline, but the current England mid-field is treacle.
Have we ever been not-treacle ?

France would just shrug and put a winger or centre in at fullback and see how that goes , as they have a freer mentality and don’t pigeon hole players by position so much. Players like steward or slade would never have been capped had they been French .

England are still traumatised by the Ugo Monye to 15 experiment.

/shudder

Posted: **Wed Feb 26, 2025 9:28 pm**

Off the back of an emergency appearance at full back for Quins against a French team, I seem to recall, where he caught a few deep balls and ran them back hard and fast a couple of times. Because he was a strong, quick winger and there wasn't much kick chase from the French.

Was that England match when they played in the purple kit or the one.before? I was at the purple kit match and the most fun anyone had alll day was turning the purple cards Nike had handed out to get a free advertising mosaic into paper aeroplanes and seeing how far they went.

Posted: **Wed Feb 26, 2025 9:35 pm**

Saw this I wonder how much shit the Irish on the board would have made if an English international had inadvertently gouged one of their players causing a career ending injury.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... q1w11egz1o

Posted: **Thu Feb 27, 2025 8:29 am**

petej wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2025 9:35 pm Saw this I wonder how much shit the Irish on the board would have made if an English international had inadvertently gouged one of their players causing a career ending injury.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... q1w11egz1o

Not much. It was a freak accident and the player doesn’t blame Lowe.

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