NPR

_Os_ wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:12 am It's nonsense intended to win back some Reform gammons. But they're also showing who they are. The military has no capacity to take in 500k-1m people for training per year, the costs of housing and feeding all those people will not be as low as the Tories are claiming either. It costs £50k per year to keep someone in prison, even if the cost is under half that it's still starting at £10bn.

What it's really about is providing an indentured labour force for business and the state. As Big Dog's sister says they must pick fruit on "our fruit farms", I don't remember owning a fruit farm. Obviously the cost is going to be low if a kid has been forced to remain in school until age 18 doing maths (another brilliant Sunak idea) and has their own non-state provided living arrangements. "National service" really means working without pay at some private business for a year or two. This is the sort of thing criminals are made to do as a punishment.

It is disturbing how often all Tory ideas come back to "people must be turned into unpaid labourers with no rights". Free ports were that too. This seems to be their economic model.

We need a national service, we haven't got enough people to pick our fruit

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:23 am

We need a national service, we haven't got enough people to pick our fruit

Yes, because we Brexited and cut off access to cheap EU labour to do it, which we relied upon because supermarkets have screwed producers on price for decades to ensure that customers pay some of the lower food prices in Europe (of course post-Brexit and greed-flation that's gone out of the window).

If we actually paid closer to the production cost of food, and that includes paying domestic workers a wage that allows them to live in this country without being 10 to a caravan, then we'd have much less left over for other stuff. I suppose if you believe in the free market that, in theory, prices of items that aren't as essential of food would have to come down to compensate for customers having less discretionary spending power.

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:23 am

_Os_ wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:12 am It's nonsense intended to win back some Reform gammons. But they're also showing who they are. The military has no capacity to take in 500k-1m people for training per year, the costs of housing and feeding all those people will not be as low as the Tories are claiming either. It costs £50k per year to keep someone in prison, even if the cost is under half that it's still starting at £10bn.

What it's really about is providing an indentured labour force for business and the state. As Big Dog's sister says they must pick fruit on "our fruit farms", I don't remember owning a fruit farm. Obviously the cost is going to be low if a kid has been forced to remain in school until age 18 doing maths (another brilliant Sunak idea) and has their own non-state provided living arrangements. "National service" really means working without pay at some private business for a year or two. This is the sort of thing criminals are made to do as a punishment.

It is disturbing how often all Tory ideas come back to "people must be turned into unpaid labourers with no rights". Free ports were that too. This seems to be their economic model.

Interesting that you bring up Covid. Covid saw the biggest of transfer in Wealth in human history. Small business had to close, Corporations were able to thrive.

Not sure why obviously intelligent people on this bored are somehow in thrall to the establishment whilst also hating it at the same time.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:30 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:23 am

_Os_ wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:12 am It's nonsense intended to win back some Reform gammons. But they're also showing who they are. The military has no capacity to take in 500k-1m people for training per year, the costs of housing and feeding all those people will not be as low as the Tories are claiming either. It costs £50k per year to keep someone in prison, even if the cost is under half that it's still starting at £10bn.

What it's really about is providing an indentured labour force for business and the state. As Big Dog's sister says they must pick fruit on "our fruit farms", I don't remember owning a fruit farm. Obviously the cost is going to be low if a kid has been forced to remain in school until age 18 doing maths (another brilliant Sunak idea) and has their own non-state provided living arrangements. "National service" really means working without pay at some private business for a year or two. This is the sort of thing criminals are made to do as a punishment.

It is disturbing how often all Tory ideas come back to "people must be turned into unpaid labourers with no rights". Free ports were that too. This seems to be their economic model.

Interesting that you bring up Covid. Covid saw the biggest of transfer in Wealth in human history. Small business had to close, Corporations were able to thrive.

Not sure why obviously intelligent people on this bored are somehow in thrall to the establishment whilst also hating it at the same time.

Fully aware of the sickening wealth transfer over that period in which the Tories more than played their part. I'm a socialist, I want it all back and then some. Forcible wealth redistribution.

Ultimately it was just a gonzo version of activity long enabled by the neo-liberal economic consensus in the developed world. That needs to be torn down too. I don't see any political party that has the appetite for that, probably because they know they'd never be allowed to.

For all that her ideas were fucking mental and the opposite of what was required, Truss is right in that she tried to shake things up and was actively conspired against by the markets. Uprising and slaughtering all the financiers, bankers and sundry other parasites that make up the markets increasingly looks like the only way to shake things up without them clicking their mouse buttons to use the imaginary money on their computer screens as a punitive weapon against anyone who thinks concentrating wealth into an ever smaller number of pockets is a bad thing.

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:28 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:23 am

We need a national service, we haven't got enough people to pick our fruit

Yes, because we Brexited and cut off access to cheap EU labour to do it, which we relied upon because supermarkets have screwed producers on price for decades to ensure that customers pay some of the lower food prices in Europe (of course post-Brexit and greed-flation that's gone out of the window).

If we actually paid closer to the production cost of food, and that includes paying domestic workers a wage that allows them to live in this country without being 10 to a caravan, then we'd have much less left over for other stuff. I suppose if you believe in the free market that, in theory, prices of items that aren't as essential of food would have to come down to compensate for customers having less discretionary spending power.

6,000,000 Europeans took the option to the right to stay in the UK after Brexit.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:32 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:28 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:23 am

Yes, because we Brexited and cut off access to cheap EU labour to do it, which we relied upon because supermarkets have screwed producers on price for decades to ensure that customers pay some of the lower food prices in Europe (of course post-Brexit and greed-flation that's gone out of the window).

If we actually paid closer to the production cost of food, and that includes paying domestic workers a wage that allows them to live in this country without being 10 to a caravan, then we'd have much less left over for other stuff. I suppose if you believe in the free market that, in theory, prices of items that aren't as essential of food would have to come down to compensate for customers having less discretionary spending power.

6,000,000 Europeans took the option to the right to stay in the UK after Brexit.

And many have since gone home, but that's immaterial because neither they nor the overwhelming majority of those who stayed were fruit and veg pickers

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:32 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:30 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:23 am

Interesting that you bring up Covid. Covid saw the biggest of transfer in Wealth in human history. Small business had to close, Corporations were able to thrive.

Not sure why obviously intelligent people on this bored are somehow in thrall to the establishment whilst also hating it at the same time.

Fully aware of the sickening wealth transfer over that period in which the Tories more than played their part. I'm a socialist, I want it all back and then some. Forcible wealth redistribution.

Ultimately it was just a gonzo version of activity long enabled by the neo-liberal economic consensus in the developed world. That needs to be torn down too. I don't see any political party that has the appetite for that, probably because they know they'd never be allowed to.

For all that her ideas were fucking mental and the opposite of what was required, Truss is right in that she tried to shake things up and was actively conspired against by the markets. Uprising and slaughtering all the financiers, bankers and sundry other parasites that make up the markets increasingly looks like the only way to shake things up without them clicking their mouse buttons to use the imaginary money on their computer screens as a punitive weapon against anyone who thinks concentrating wealth into an ever smaller number of pockets is a bad thing.

It was a world wide wealth transfer, not just the tories.

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:34 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:32 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:28 am

6,000,000 Europeans took the option to the right to stay in the UK after Brexit.

And many have since gone home, but that's immaterial because neither they nor the overwhelming majority of those who stayed were fruit and veg pickers

So on one hand you're a Socialist whilst on the other you see the need for a constant supply of cheap labour?

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:34 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:32 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:30 am

Fully aware of the sickening wealth transfer over that period in which the Tories more than played their part. I'm a socialist, I want it all back and then some. Forcible wealth redistribution.

Ultimately it was just a gonzo version of activity long enabled by the neo-liberal economic consensus in the developed world. That needs to be torn down too. I don't see any political party that has the appetite for that, probably because they know they'd never be allowed to.

For all that her ideas were fucking mental and the opposite of what was required, Truss is right in that she tried to shake things up and was actively conspired against by the markets. Uprising and slaughtering all the financiers, bankers and sundry other parasites that make up the markets increasingly looks like the only way to shake things up without them clicking their mouse buttons to use the imaginary money on their computer screens as a punitive weapon against anyone who thinks concentrating wealth into an ever smaller number of pockets is a bad thing.

It was a world wide wealth transfer, not just the tories.

Hence saying they played their part rather than stating they were solely responsible. Jesus, you pick fights over absolutely everything.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:23 am

We need a national service, we haven't got enough people to pick our fruit

Yes, because we Brexited and cut off access to cheap EU labour to do it, which we relied upon because supermarkets have screwed producers on price for decades to ensure that customers pay some of the lower food prices in Europe (of course post-Brexit and greed-flation that's gone out of the window).

If we actually paid closer to the production cost of food, and that includes paying domestic workers a wage that allows them to live in this country without being 10 to a caravan, then we'd have much less left over for other stuff. I suppose if you believe in the free market that, in theory, prices of items that aren't as essential of food would have to come down to compensate for customers having less discretionary spending power.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:36 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:34 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:32 am

And many have since gone home, but that's immaterial because neither they nor the overwhelming majority of those who stayed were fruit and veg pickers

So on one hand you're a Socialist whilst on the other you see the need for a constant supply of cheap labour?

Yes, despite what you might think socialists aren't blind or stupid, I see the system we created and how it's reliant on the constant supply of cheap labour and how Brexit was actively harmful to it.

I suggest we need a better, less exploitative system

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:37 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:34 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:32 am

It was a world wide wealth transfer, not just the tories.

Hence saying they played their part rather than stating they were solely responsible. Jesus, you pick fights over absolutely everything.

It was a scam, we were all played. But I'm guessing you were one of those that tutted at people not wearing masks and politicians breaking the rules?

Again, on the one hand you hate the goverment/establishment and yet on the other hand, you are completely in it's thrall

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:39 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:36 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:34 am

So on one hand you're a Socialist whilst on the other you see the need for a constant supply of cheap labour?

Yes, despite what you might think socialists aren't blind or stupid, I see the system we created and how it's reliant on the constant supply of cheap labour and how Brexit was actively harmful to it.

I suggest we need a better, less exploitative system

You moan about Brexit because of labour shortages whilst wanting a less exploitative system? Forgive me if I roll my eyes. You should have been happy that the UK would have to pay better wages and not exploiting people from Europe.

robmatic wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:38 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:23 am

We need a national service, we haven't got enough people to pick our fruit

Yes, because we Brexited and cut off access to cheap EU labour to do it, which we relied upon because supermarkets have screwed producers on price for decades to ensure that customers pay some of the lower food prices in Europe (of course post-Brexit and greed-flation that's gone out of the window).

If we actually paid closer to the production cost of food, and that includes paying domestic workers a wage that allows them to live in this country without being 10 to a caravan, then we'd have much less left over for other stuff. I suppose if you believe in the free market that, in theory, prices of items that aren't as essential of food would have to come down to compensate for customers having less discretionary spending power.

There are other systemic issues with things like fruit picking as well though. Even if the wage is decent, coming off and going back on benefits for seasonal work is a ballache for the available labour force.

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:39 am You should have been happy that the UK would have to pay better wages and not exploiting people from Europe.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:40 am “The new data capture a snapshot of the population of England and Wales on Census day last year – March 21, 2021. They show that there were 3.6 million people born in EU countries and that 3.9 million held EU passports, including 365,000 Irish citizens (who do not need to apply for EUSS) and some EU citizen children born in the UK.”

Not six million.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:40 am “The new data capture a snapshot of the population of England and Wales on Census day last year – March 21, 2021. They show that there were 3.6 million people born in EU countries and that 3.9 million held EU passports, including 365,000 Irish citizens (who do not need to apply for EUSS) and some EU citizen children born in the UK.”

Not six million.

The scheme, which was closed in June 2021, was set up to document the nearly 6 million EU citizens in the UK, ensuring their rights in the post-Brexit landscape

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 12:03 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:40 am “The new data capture a snapshot of the population of England and Wales on Census day last year – March 21, 2021. They show that there were 3.6 million people born in EU countries and that 3.9 million held EU passports, including 365,000 Irish citizens (who do not need to apply for EUSS) and some EU citizen children born in the UK.”

Not six million.

Dont confuse him/her with real actual facts FFS - he/she will blow a fuse!

An estimated 6.1 million individuals had applied to the EU Settlement Scheme by June 2023
Most EU citizens and their family members already living in the UK before the end of free movement were required to apply to the EU Settlement Scheme (EUSS) to continue living in the UK legally after 30 June 2021. (See the ‘Understanding the Policy’ section above for more details.)

One unexpected outcome of this scheme was the high number of people who applied. By the end of June 2023, an estimated 6.1 million people had applied to EUSS. This includes 5.6m EU citizens, 62,000 EEA/Swiss citizens, and 487,000 non-EEA family members. These figures are lower than the 7.4 million applications during the same period, because around 1.1 million people had applied more than once. Indeed, people with pre-settled status are eventually required to apply again in order to secure settled status.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:44 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:39 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:36 am

Yes, despite what you might think socialists aren't blind or stupid, I see the system we created and how it's reliant on the constant supply of cheap labour and how Brexit was actively harmful to it.

I suggest we need a better, less exploitative system

You moan about Brexit because of labour shortages whilst wanting a less exploitative system? Forgive me if I roll my eyes. You should have been happy that the UK would have to pay better wages and not exploiting people from Europe.

Ok, that's my mistake, I forgot that you have zero reading comprehension. I'm going back to my resolution not to engage you.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 12:45 pm Military accommodation is already criminally substandard so where are all these extra troops going to be trained and billeted considering many barracks have been shut? That's assuming of course that capita gets them through the gate because they can't do it very well with volunteers presently. Thank fuck I'm out (not that I think it'll come to fruition).

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:42 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:37 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:34 am

Hence saying they played their part rather than stating they were solely responsible. Jesus, you pick fights over absolutely everything.

It was a scam, we were all played. But I'm guessing you were one of those that tutted at people not wearing masks and politicians breaking the rules?

Again, on the one hand you hate the goverment/establishment and yet on the other hand, you are completely in it's thrall

You are weirdly conflating very different things

One can be reviled by the government handing out billions and billions to mates and donors for non-functional PPE and a broken track and trace system while participating in public health measures to try and ensure more people don't contract a potentially life-threatening illness. Scorn for those who eschewed measures that, when followed, were as effective as we could hope for absent a vaccine is not being in thrall to the establishment.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 12:56 pm

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 12:45 pm Military accommodation is already criminally substandard so where are all these extra troops going to be trained and billeted considering many barracks have been shut? That's assuming of course that capita gets them through the gate because they can't do it very well with volunteers presently. Thank fuck I'm out (not that I think it'll come to fruition).

The Military component is only there for the gammons who don't read past the headline. What 18 year old is going to choose a year as a squaddie, versus 12 weekends ?, & that is assuming that there's any way of enforcing the 12 weekends !

It's a pathetic attempt to win over voters that the clearly don't think have the wits to see that the policy is nonsense.

when do we get guns?

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 1:32 pmNext it'll be a peerage for Farage if we win.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:42 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:37 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:34 am

Hence saying they played their part rather than stating they were solely responsible. Jesus, you pick fights over absolutely everything.

It was a scam, we were all played. But I'm guessing you were one of those that tutted at people not wearing masks and politicians breaking the rules?

Again, on the one hand you hate the goverment/establishment and yet on the other hand, you are completely in it's thrall

You are weirdly conflating very different things

One can be reviled by the government handing out billions and billions to mates and donors for non-functional PPE and a broken track and trace system while participating in public health measures to try and ensure more people don't contract a potentially life-threatening illness. Scorn for those who eschewed measures that, when followed, were as effective as we could hope for absent a vaccine is not being in thrall to the establishment.

sefton wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 5:04 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:42 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 11:37 am

It was a scam, we were all played. But I'm guessing you were one of those that tutted at people not wearing masks and politicians breaking the rules?

Again, on the one hand you hate the goverment/establishment and yet on the other hand, you are completely in it's thrall

You are weirdly conflating very different things

One can be reviled by the government handing out billions and billions to mates and donors for non-functional PPE and a broken track and trace system while participating in public health measures to try and ensure more people don't contract a potentially life-threatening illness. Scorn for those who eschewed measures that, when followed, were as effective as we could hope for absent a vaccine is not being in thrall to the establishment.

It’s not a conflation, it’s New World Order, poor fucking DAC is leading you to the water of enlightenment but you won’t drink it.

vball wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 8:55 am I like the idea. Perhaps not the National Service bit but spending 12 weekends working in the community. Other countries can do it so why not UK?
Of course needs thought through more with the devil loitering about in the details but I think it has some merit.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 8:03 am More National Sevice details emerge, only those who have done their bit will be able to work in the public sector. Would you like to know more?

(I'm not the first person to make this connection)

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 9:05 am

vball wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 8:55 am I like the idea. Perhaps not the National Service bit but spending 12 weekends working in the community. Other countries can do it so why not UK?
Of course needs thought through more with the devil loitering about in the details but I think it has some merit.

How about people do it before they retire? Or, controversially, people just get on and volunteer in their local community’s clubs and societies? They’d be welcome with open arms.

Fundamentally we need a bigger and better military. The starting point though has to be having large enough stockpiles of kit and ammunition to actually fight a war, alongside an increase in the size of the professional force back up from historic lows. The military would have no use for a massive cohort and they’d end up drilling with brooms or something. The whole thing would be a total joke within weeks

sefton wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 9:26 am

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 8:03 am More National Sevice details emerge, only those who have done their bit will be able to work in the public sector. Would you like to know more?

(I'm not the first person to make this connection)

It’s looking more bonkers with every passing minute, now there’s the suggestion that they’ll fine the parents of 18 yr olds who don’t take up this wonderful offer of mandatory volunteering. You’d almost think this policy was made up on Saturday and written on the back of a packets of fags.

sturginho wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 10:04 am Presumably Sunak won't be sending his kids to do their national service