Came across those a few weeks ago, absolutely brilliant. Just finishing off the India ones, the lucky sods.Brazil wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:14 amIf you've not heard them, the Empire podcasts on the birth of Saudi are very interesting. StJOhn Philby was hugely significant in setting up Saud as King, and tilting the country to the US.
Stop voting for fucking Tories
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
I agree our support for the regime is despicable, but I don't see why Western colonialism is responsible for a place that was subject to 400 years of Islamic empire before independence. And I have met enough Saudis to severely doubt that it would be some sort of cosmopolitan liberal democracy without our involvement.
The West is the dominant force militarily and geopolitically, so it is undoubtedly responsible if it installs and supports a truly troubling regime.robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:05 pmI agree our support for the regime is despicable, but I don't see why Western colonialism is responsible for a place that was subject to 400 years of Islamic empire before independence. And I have met enough Saudis to severely doubt that it would be some sort of cosmopolitan liberal democracy without our involvement.
More fiddling? How do the fuckers avoid more fiddling? Pakistan, Iran, Iraq the list of countries that have been and continue to be fiddled with by the west is VERY long.petej wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:30 amNot convinced more fiddling from the west will help progress those regions though we aren't the only people interfering (eg Russia). It is better if those countries resolve and progress things with less interference. Like Saddam was a nasty prick but did removing him help. Did installing and removing the Taliban in Afghanistan help? Territories/borders have shifted throughout history so any border created is disputable. Humans are just way messier than we like to pretend. With interfering you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I'm not saying they'd be better, saner places without it, but it's disingenuous to say "they should sort their own shit out"
It remains a fact that the Sykes-Picot and the carve up of the Levant has had long standing impacts on the region and international politics as a whole. This is not entirely due to Britain/France given the US increasing interference in the region post WW2 (or pre-WW2 in the case of Saudi) but Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Agreement are two of the most profoundly significant decisions of the last century.robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:05 pmI agree our support for the regime is despicable, but I don't see why Western colonialism is responsible for a place that was subject to 400 years of Islamic empire before independence. And I have met enough Saudis to severely doubt that it would be some sort of cosmopolitan liberal democracy without our involvement.
What responsibility the West still bears as a consequence of those decisions is open to question in my view, and as we get further from the historical events that produced theses states I think realpolitik has far more of a bearing than post-colonial hang ups. I also agree that the States established after the end of Empire have to bear their own responsibility as Empire fades in the rearview mirror, and things like reparations are often a convenient figleaf to excuse more immediate and recent failings.
Don't the Saudis have any agency?epwc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:19 pmThe West is the dominant force militarily and geopolitically, so it is undoubtedly responsible if it installs and supports a truly troubling regime.robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:05 pmI agree our support for the regime is despicable, but I don't see why Western colonialism is responsible for a place that was subject to 400 years of Islamic empire before independence. And I have met enough Saudis to severely doubt that it would be some sort of cosmopolitan liberal democracy without our involvement.
Yes, but if they (the regime) exercise that by being a brutal and oppressive regime based on the unequivocal support they receive from the US/UK then that basically enables what happens. It's not happening in isolation, the Sauds could not have stayed in power for what will soon be 100 years without Western support, so what would you expect to happen? Do you fancy being an objective journalist or protester in Saudi?
If I ever get the time I'll compile a list of all the regimes toppled by Western interference worldwide, in near enough all cases they have been replaced by brutally oppressive regimes that we facilitate. There is no state that is unaffected by external powers (whether it's Russia, China or the West)
Meh, apart from a short battle in 1914 against the Ottoman's no Western country has invaded Saudi Arabia. They were never a colony. They have no claim like India, Caribbean or African nations.epwc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 1:41 pmYes, but if they (the regime) exercise that by being a brutal and oppressive regime based on the unequivocal support they receive from the US/UK then that basically enables what happens. It's not happening in isolation, the Sauds could not have stayed in power for what will soon be 100 years without Western support, so what would you expect to happen? Do you fancy being an objective journalist or protester in Saudi?
If the greedy Arab fucks want to take money from The West and use it to treat their own people like dirt, then that's on them.
It's not, unless we drop the pretence that we actually care about human rights or democracy. If the UK and US say tomorrow that we accept that the Saudis operate a brutal and oppressive regime, but we still want to supply them with arms and buy their oil, then maybe. But no, that's not the case at all, we pretend we give a shit, we have the power to modify the behaviour of our partners if we choose to exercise it.
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The thing about criticising Sykes-Picot is that there’s rarely a realistic and *at the time* viable alternative put forward.Brazil wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:33 pmIt remains a fact that the Sykes-Picot and the carve up of the Levant has had long standing impacts on the region and international politics as a whole. This is not entirely due to Britain/France given the US increasing interference in the region post WW2 (or pre-WW2 in the case of Saudi) but Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Agreement are two of the most profoundly significant decisions of the last century.robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:05 pmI agree our support for the regime is despicable, but I don't see why Western colonialism is responsible for a place that was subject to 400 years of Islamic empire before independence. And I have met enough Saudis to severely doubt that it would be some sort of cosmopolitan liberal democracy without our involvement.
What responsibility the West still bears as a consequence of those decisions is open to question in my view, and as we get further from the historical events that produced theses states I think realpolitik has far more of a bearing than post-colonial hang ups. I also agree that the States established after the end of Empire have to bear their own responsibility as Empire fades in the rearview mirror, and things like reparations are often a convenient figleaf to excuse more immediate and recent failings.
On the wider point I agree that this has become a figleaf. It gets a little tedious hearing about how ex-colonial powers are responsible for 21st century ills when you have numerous examples available of ex-colonies dealt poor hands that have made a success of it. Pakistan, to take an example, has been the architect of its own misfortune regardless of outside meddling
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Pakistan is a complete basket case, but it's ridiculous to say there hasn't been outside meddling. The fucker who set the country on the pathway to religious intolerance was installed with the backing of the US:Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:28 pmPakistan, to take an example, has been the architect of its own misfortune regardless of outside meddling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Zia-ul-Haq
I'm not saying that without external involvement they'd be a squeaky clean open society but it's absolute bollocks to say there is no external involvement in Pakistan
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Good job I didn’t say that then!epwc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:41 pmPakistan is a complete basket case, but it's ridiculous to say there hasn't been outside meddling. The fucker who set the country on the pathway to religious intolerance was installed with the backing of the US:Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:28 pmPakistan, to take an example, has been the architect of its own misfortune regardless of outside meddling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Zia-ul-Haq
I'm not saying that without external involvement they'd be a squeaky clean open society but it's absolute bollocks to say there is no external involvement in Pakistan
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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Depends what you define as a success, but my starters for 10 would be:
India
Singapore
Malaysia
South Korea
Vietnam
Ghana
Botswana
Seychelles
UAE
Antigua
Bahamas
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Quite, if you look at corruption:
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023
Or human rights; "Freedom" index:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country
Not many in your list are doing that well....
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All matters of opinion, but I think you’d find yourself in a minority as an Indian if you considered that country not to have made a success of itself, and of course in a massive minority should you think the same of Singapore, its non western attitude to human rights not withstanding.epwc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:04 pmQuite, if you look at corruption:
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023
Or human rights; "Freedom" index:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country
Not many in your list are doing that well....
What links all of the above is being able to massively lift the standard of living of its people in the post-colonial era. South Korea was poorer than much of West Africa after the war, had been rapaciously treated by Japan then pummelled in a brutal war. Look at it today. Vietnam had thirty years of war and has recovered remarkably.
Rejecting your white/non white divide, of course the best example would be Poland.
The point being, malign western influence does not force a country to be a basket case. Pakistan had a bad hand and played it appallingly, because it has had generations of elites who have done stupid shit and show no signs of slowing down.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
I'm not Indian, my parents were born there and then moved penniless to Pakistan as a result of that wonderfully well executed exit from empire in India. But regardless, I'm British, I was born here and have lived my whole life here and have paid taxes here my whole working life.
I do agree that Pakistan has done the worst possible job for itself and it's people but this is due in no small part to the role played by external powers.
Another example is Iran, would it have been a victim of an Islamic revolution if the Shah hadn't been installed?
https://apnews.com/article/ap-was-there ... 0aa3f1f4d7
Just in case you didn't know (although I'm sure you do).
And malign Western influence has everything to do with multiple abhorrent regimes in ex colonies.
I do agree that Pakistan has done the worst possible job for itself and it's people but this is due in no small part to the role played by external powers.
Another example is Iran, would it have been a victim of an Islamic revolution if the Shah hadn't been installed?
https://apnews.com/article/ap-was-there ... 0aa3f1f4d7
Just in case you didn't know (although I'm sure you do).
And malign Western influence has everything to do with multiple abhorrent regimes in ex colonies.
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I didn’t suggest you were Indian, I meant it in the same vein as ‘if I were Irish I would not think Jonny Sexton was a wanker’ styling. Appreciate my phrasing could have been better.epwc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:22 pm I'm not Indian, my parents were born there and then moved penniless to Pakistan as a result of that wonderfully well executed exit from empire in India. But regardless, I'm British, I was born here and have lived my whole life here and have paid taxes here my whole working life.
I do agree that Pakistan has done the worst possible job for itself and it's people but this is due in no small part to the role played by external powers.
Another example is Iran, would it have been a victim of an Islamic revolution if the Shah hadn't been installed?
https://apnews.com/article/ap-was-there ... 0aa3f1f4d7
Just in case you didn't know (although I'm sure you do).
And malign Western influence has everything to do with multiple abhorrent regimes in ex colonies.
Iran is an interesting one. The first element being that I appreciate its non-U to point it out, but oil is pretty bloody important. Are you seriously suggesting any major global power at any point in history *would not* have taken steps to secure their supply?
Was there western meddling? Yes. However can you conjure up an Islamic Revolution from thin air? No. Iranians had agency and chose to install then accept and indeed fight for that regime. There’s every chance that a similar chain of events happens regardless.
One thing that comes across a lot in Imperial and Cold War histories is the question of who is using who. To take the British Raj as an example, the wealthy Bengalis who threw in their lot with the East India Company did it from a position of some strength. Faisal, Hussein et al did not join the First World War to save Brave Little Belgium or to ease Britain’s manpower crisis.
Fast forward to today and we still see that the client state (Israel) has an oversized influence on its paymaster and can ignore a lot of its whims. Plenty of third world groups paid lip service to Communism/Christianity/Democracy/Anti-Imperialism for just long enough to get their guns. That’s their agency in action.
There are plenty of examples of states that have gone through the ringer and haven’t ended up or stayed as basket cases. Generally there has been enough of a faction unwilling to accept that status. As I have said already, there is not the willpower among Pakistani elites to make things better, and that is the primary reason why they are where they are.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
No, I'm absolutely not. What I am saying seemingly unsuccessfully is that the West can't have it both ways; fuck over lots of countries for their own purposes resulting in huge damage, large scale deaths and the empowerment of corrupt elites and then say "well it's up to them innit?"Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:38 pm Iran is an interesting one. The first element being that I appreciate its non-U to point it out, but oil is pretty bloody important. Are you seriously suggesting any major global power at any point in history *would not* have taken steps to secure their supply?
The West needs to stop painting itself as this benevolent force for good that is constantly frustrated by the locals.
What did Afghanistan achieve? Loads and loads of Western forces with PTSD and disabilities, multiplied by many 1000s of times for the local population. Almost forgot, the return of the Taliban too.
Iraq? Fuck me, that was brilliant that was. I'm pretty damn sure that Iraq is more dangerous and has suffered more civilian casualties since the allied invasion than under Saddam.
Libya? I know many people of African and Asian descent that lived and worked there before Gaddafi was toppled, they didn't have any issues with the place (granted they were coming from much more corrupt and poorer places)
On that I wholeheartedly agree, but Pakistan is constantly subject to external influences, and all of it's elites are harboured by the West when they need to be.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:38 pmAs I have said already, there is not the willpower among Pakistani elites to make things better, and that is the primary reason why they are where they are.
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I agree with these paragraphs totally. Seeing foreign policy and history as a morality play is silly and leads to silly outcomesepwc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:48 pmPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:38 pm Iran is an interesting one. The first element being that I appreciate its non-U to point it out, but oil is pretty bloody important. Are you seriously suggesting any major global power at any point in history *would not* have taken steps to secure their supply?
The West needs to stop painting itself as this benevolent force for good that is constantly frustrated by the locals.
What did Afghanistan achieve? Loads and loads of Western forces with PTSD and disabilities, multiplied by many 1000s of times for the local population. Almost forgot, the return of the Taliban too.
Iraq? Fuck me, that was brilliant that was. I'm pretty damn sure that Iraq is more dangerous and has suffered more civilian casualties since the allied invasion than under Saddam.
Libya? I know many people of African and Asian descent that lived and worked there before Gaddafi was toppled, they didn't have any issues with the place (granted they were coming from much more corrupt and poorer places)
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Apropos of nowt really, but his name came up. Saddam Hussein was in the Premier League of bad people - name any of the worst bad people from history and Saddam Hussein was in the same ball park.
This doesn't excuse anything, it's not an apology for anything, it doesn't ignore who put him there or kept him there, it just is.
This doesn't excuse anything, it's not an apology for anything, it doesn't ignore who put him there or kept him there, it just is.
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What's the alternative ?Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:01 pmI agree with these paragraphs totally. Seeing foreign policy and history as a morality play is silly and leads to silly outcomesepwc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:48 pmPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:38 pm Iran is an interesting one. The first element being that I appreciate its non-U to point it out, but oil is pretty bloody important. Are you seriously suggesting any major global power at any point in history *would not* have taken steps to secure their supply?
The West needs to stop painting itself as this benevolent force for good that is constantly frustrated by the locals.
What did Afghanistan achieve? Loads and loads of Western forces with PTSD and disabilities, multiplied by many 1000s of times for the local population. Almost forgot, the return of the Taliban too.
Iraq? Fuck me, that was brilliant that was. I'm pretty damn sure that Iraq is more dangerous and has suffered more civilian casualties since the allied invasion than under Saddam.
Libya? I know many people of African and Asian descent that lived and worked there before Gaddafi was toppled, they didn't have any issues with the place (granted they were coming from much more corrupt and poorer places)
.... just ignore any pretense of morality completely ?
i.e. become Vladimir Putin, & say there is no morality that I subscribe to, & I just do what makes me happy, & fuck the rest of you !
The issue wasn't morality, it was the self-delusion that what they pursued as policy had any basis is their declared morality. The West has been just as bad as Putin throughout the Cold War, but just did a better job on PR !
There's a great picture of George H Fucking Bush sucking off Saddam, while GHWB was the CIA Director.
Now as CIA Director, there is no doubt that he knew what a repugnant piece of shit Saddam was, but to the US eyes, he was their piece of shit; because as long as Saddam was using WMDs against the Iranians, he was their boy !
Saddam wasn't unique, he was the rule; Noriega, Marcos, Papa Doc ...... all cunts, just different degrees
It's not as if the non-morality version of policy has been an extraordinary success so far, so why not try the morality version; it can hardly be worse, can it ?
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Foreign policy as a morality play was liberal interventionism, in its various forms justifying colonial expansion all the way to the Iraq War. Arming the Mujahideen had moral overtones in the Cold War ffs. So I don’t accept it hasn’t been tried, it’s more that it doesn’t work. And of course what is moral is a relative concept that is up for debatefishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:06 pmWhat's the alternative ?Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:01 pmI agree with these paragraphs totally. Seeing foreign policy and history as a morality play is silly and leads to silly outcomesepwc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:48 pm
The West needs to stop painting itself as this benevolent force for good that is constantly frustrated by the locals.
What did Afghanistan achieve? Loads and loads of Western forces with PTSD and disabilities, multiplied by many 1000s of times for the local population. Almost forgot, the return of the Taliban too.
Iraq? Fuck me, that was brilliant that was. I'm pretty damn sure that Iraq is more dangerous and has suffered more civilian casualties since the allied invasion than under Saddam.
Libya? I know many people of African and Asian descent that lived and worked there before Gaddafi was toppled, they didn't have any issues with the place (granted they were coming from much more corrupt and poorer places)
.... just ignore any pretense of morality completely ?
i.e. become Vladimir Putin, & say there is no morality that I subscribe to, & I just do what makes me happy, & fuck the rest of you !
The issue wasn't morality, it was the self-delusion that what they pursued as policy had any basis is their declared morality. The West has been just as bad as Putin throughout the Cold War, but just did a better job on PR !
There's a great picture of George H Fucking Bush sucking off Saddam, while GHWB was the CIA Director.
Now as CIA Director, there is no doubt that he knew what a repugnant piece of shit Saddam was, but to the US eyes, he was their piece of shit; because as long as Saddam was using WMDs against the Iranians, he was their boy !
Saddam wasn't unique, he was the rule; Noriega, Marcos, Papa Doc ...... all cunts, just different degrees
It's not as if the non-morality version of policy has been an extraordinary success so far, so why not try the morality version; it can hardly be worse, can it ?
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Tyrants have been fucking over their own people and neighbours for millennia. It's not always The West that was responsible:
The 10 Most Brutal Dictators in History
Ivan the Terrible
Vlad the Impaler
Pol Pot
Leopold II
Adolf Hitler
Joseph Stalin
Genghis Khan
Mao Zedong
Idi Amin
Saddam Hussein
Only the last two benefitted wholly from The West support.
In Africa before the Whites even arrived in 1652, the Zulus treated the tribes they conquered and assimilated like dirt.
In Europe we called the dictators Kings and Queens to try to give them a sheen of respectability.
Those who filled the vacuum left by Colonialism or who profited from oil in the Middle East in the last 50 years, have to look at their own leaders alongside "The Whites" for their current hardships.
People always fuck over each other. It's human nature.
- fishfoodie
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I'd love to see what metrics they used to compile that list, because I've a feeling they pulled the numbers from their arses if the Mao & Stalin as less brutal than VladSandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 10:43 amTyrants have been fucking over their own people and neighbours for millennia. It's not always The West that was responsible:
The 10 Most Brutal Dictators in History
Ivan the Terrible
Vlad the Impaler
Pol Pot
Leopold II
Adolf Hitler
Joseph Stalin
Genghis Khan
Mao Zedong
Idi Amin
Saddam Hussein
Only the last two benefitted wholly from The West support.
In Africa before the Whites even arrived in 1652, the Zulus treated the tribes they conquered and assimilated like dirt.
In Europe we called the dictators Kings and Queens to try to give them a sheen of respectability.
Those who filled the vacuum left by Colonialism or who profited from oil in the Middle East in the last 50 years, have to look at their own leaders alongside "The Whites" for their current hardships.
People always fuck over each other. It's human nature.
Having sold only a couple of thousand in hardback, for some delusional reason she thinks she's going to sell lots more of her ridiculous book in paperback!!!!
I am amazed the delusional woman hasn't been sectioned yet
I am amazed the delusional woman hasn't been sectioned yet
I wonder who will be leasding them into the next election?
There were 131,680 eligible electors. Turnout was 72.8%.
Kemi Badenoch received 53,806 votes
Robert Jenrick received 41,388 votes
There were 655 rejected ballots.
66,288 electors voted online and 29,621 electors voted by post.
- Uncle fester
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You do know that Pol Pot came to power as a direct result of the Western meddling in Vietnam?Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 10:43 amTyrants have been fucking over their own people and neighbours for millennia. It's not always The West that was responsible:
The 10 Most Brutal Dictators in History
Ivan the Terrible
Vlad the Impaler
Pol Pot
Leopold II
Adolf Hitler
Joseph Stalin
Genghis Khan
Mao Zedong
Idi Amin
Saddam Hussein
Only the last two benefitted wholly from The West support.
In Africa before the Whites even arrived in 1652, the Zulus treated the tribes they conquered and assimilated like dirt.
In Europe we called the dictators Kings and Queens to try to give them a sheen of respectability.
Those who filled the vacuum left by Colonialism or who profited from oil in the Middle East in the last 50 years, have to look at their own leaders alongside "The Whites" for their current hardships.
People always fuck over each other. It's human nature.
To this day, the Vietnamese are sore about the bad press they got for removing a genuinely genocidal prick from power.
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- Location: Sector 2814
Starmer must be laughing his arse off. Jenrick at least has a low cunning which means he might have held up at the dispatch box, but they've chosen the paper-skinned culture warrior who has iron clad belief in her own stupidity.SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 11:16 am I wonder who will be leasding them into the next election?There were 131,680 eligible electors. Turnout was 72.8%.
Kemi Badenoch received 53,806 votes
Robert Jenrick received 41,388 votes
There were 655 rejected ballots.
66,288 electors voted online and 29,621 electors voted by post.
Naturally, J K Rowling has celebrated and called out David Tennant, who I am sure is particularly concerned about the tweets of the mould addled rabbit hole descender.
- fishfoodie
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Has any Party Leader ever been suspended from the House for arguing with the Speaker ?Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:15 pmStarmer must be laughing his arse off. Jenrick at least has a low cunning which means he might have held up at the dispatch box, but they've chosen the paper-skinned culture warrior who has iron clad belief in her own stupidity.SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 11:16 am I wonder who will be leasding them into the next election?There were 131,680 eligible electors. Turnout was 72.8%.
Kemi Badenoch received 53,806 votes
Robert Jenrick received 41,388 votes
There were 655 rejected ballots.
66,288 electors voted online and 29,621 electors voted by post.
Naturally, J K Rowling has celebrated and called out David Tennant, who I am sure is particularly concerned about the tweets of the mould addled rabbit hole descender.
.... if not I foresee another first for Bad Enoch
America and Thatcher have a lot to answer for.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:54 pmYou do know that Pol Pot came to power as a direct result of the Western meddling in Vietnam?Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 10:43 amTyrants have been fucking over their own people and neighbours for millennia. It's not always The West that was responsible:
The 10 Most Brutal Dictators in History
Ivan the Terrible
Vlad the Impaler
Pol Pot
Leopold II
Adolf Hitler
Joseph Stalin
Genghis Khan
Mao Zedong
Idi Amin
Saddam Hussein
Only the last two benefitted wholly from The West support.
In Africa before the Whites even arrived in 1652, the Zulus treated the tribes they conquered and assimilated like dirt.
In Europe we called the dictators Kings and Queens to try to give them a sheen of respectability.
Those who filled the vacuum left by Colonialism or who profited from oil in the Middle East in the last 50 years, have to look at their own leaders alongside "The Whites" for their current hardships.
People always fuck over each other. It's human nature.
To this day, the Vietnamese are sore about the bad press they got for removing a genuinely genocidal prick from power.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2 ... pot-a-hand
A bit suspicious of John Pilger who was a big Putin brown noser but that could be because he went senile in his later years.C69 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 1:56 pmAmerica and Thatcher have a lot to answer for.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:54 pmYou do know that Pol Pot came to power as a direct result of the Western meddling in Vietnam?Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 10:43 am
Tyrants have been fucking over their own people and neighbours for millennia. It's not always The West that was responsible:
The 10 Most Brutal Dictators in History
Ivan the Terrible
Vlad the Impaler
Pol Pot
Leopold II
Adolf Hitler
Joseph Stalin
Genghis Khan
Mao Zedong
Idi Amin
Saddam Hussein
Only the last two benefitted wholly from The West support.
In Africa before the Whites even arrived in 1652, the Zulus treated the tribes they conquered and assimilated like dirt.
In Europe we called the dictators Kings and Queens to try to give them a sheen of respectability.
Those who filled the vacuum left by Colonialism or who profited from oil in the Middle East in the last 50 years, have to look at their own leaders alongside "The Whites" for their current hardships.
People always fuck over each other. It's human nature.
To this day, the Vietnamese are sore about the bad press they got for removing a genuinely genocidal prick from power.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2 ... pot-a-hand
- fishfoodie
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Well if she just gives jobs to the MPs that voted for her from the 1st round, she probably won't have enough numbers to fill all the shadow positions.
[Edit] Yep ! She got 22 MPs who voted for her in the 1st round, & there are 26 Cabinet posts, 27 if you include the PM
Last edited by fishfoodie on Mon Nov 04, 2024 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Hal Jordan
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Another Cabinet of None of The Talents.