NPR

Without the points deducation, Sarries ended up a mid-table side, out of the playoffs.

Those 17 players - which is everyone who left for the season, not just those that got binned after their rampant cheating was exposed, and is partly countered by the six they signed, including megabucks Lions Elliot Daly - barely impacted the squad: only Tolofua, Liam Williams, and Joe Gray would've been having any serious game time. The loanees were a bigger problem, but bizarrely despite this appalling decimation of poor little Saracens, their squad still ended up with 8-9 Lions, a world cup winner, and a heap of other internationals.

A Saracens loan player talking up how world class their players are says nothing about the impact of money; the fact that Saracens can afford to keep a team stuffed with world class talent is precisely what money brings.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:33 pm The second half of the season just gone is very difficult to extrapolate anything useful from (for anyone, not just Saracens), given the extent of squad rotation and fairly regular A team v B team match ups. Leicester, for example, knowing they were safe, seemed to be chucking out sides no one could reasonably expect to win apparently so that Borthwick could see fringe and youth players he knew nothing about in match conditions.

Quite a few games were played after the fine and before Covid.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:40 pm

A Saracens academy player talking up how world class their players are says nothing about the impact of money; the fact that Saracens can afford to keep a team stuffed with world class talent is precisely what a top academy brings.

FTFY

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:01 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:33 pm The second half of the season just gone is very difficult to extrapolate anything useful from (for anyone, not just Saracens), given the extent of squad rotation and fairly regular A team v B team match ups. Leicester, for example, knowing they were safe, seemed to be chucking out sides no one could reasonably expect to win apparently so that Borthwick could see fringe and youth players he knew nothing about in match conditions.

Quite a few games were played after the fine and before Covid.

And a lot of players in your figure of 17 would have still been with the club during that time, hence why I focused on the restart period.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:03 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:40 pm

A Saracens academy player talking up how world class their players are says nothing about the impact of money; the fact that Saracens can afford to keep a team stuffed with world class talent is precisely what a top academy brings.

FTFY

We're back to you pretending huge swathes of the team were developed by the Sarries academy and that experienced top-level internationals don't cost anything if they are academy players I see

zzzz

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:29 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:03 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:40 pm

A Saracens academy player talking up how world class their players are says nothing about the impact of money; the fact that Saracens can afford to keep a team stuffed with world class talent is precisely what a top academy brings.

FTFY

We're back to you pretending huge swathes of the team were developed by the Sarries academy and that experienced top-level internationals don't cost anything if they are academy players I see

zzzz

Conclusion: developing superior English test standard players in-house is a mug's game.

You can do it, but expect to make sacrifices elsewhere and not be able to buy in world class players as you see fit on top of it.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:51 pm You can do it, but expect to make sacrifices elsewhere and not be able to buy in world class players as you see fit on top of it.

If the Quins academy ever starts producing world class players then let me know how your theory goes.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:02 pm Basically I'm saying the scoreline flattered Ireland, not that it was closer than it appeared.

It did flatter us but England didn't really create much with all that dominance. Is that the gameplan Eddie plans to use against the SH teams?

Away from the endless Saracens bantz, I see England have culled the squad.

BACKS

Elliot Daly (Saracens, 45 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 86 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 70 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 53 caps)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 59 caps)
Dan Robson (Wasps, 5 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 32 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 44 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 102 caps)

FORWARDS

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 26 caps)
Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 21 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 52 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 41 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 67 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 38 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 20 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 54 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 62 caps)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 1 cap)

So probably the same pack and forwards bench with LCD for Dunn and maybe Marler in the mix to give Mako a rest. Backs depends on whether we rush Watson back so he can injure himself again, meaning it's either Ford, Farrell and Slade or JJ or Farrell, Slade JJ.

Youngs to still be starting when the heat death of the Sun occurs.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:03 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:51 pm You can do it, but expect to make sacrifices elsewhere and not be able to buy in world class players as you see fit on top of it.

If the Quins academy ever starts producing world class players then let me know how your theory goes.

Produced enough to legally win a title and a heap of quality internationals - odd choice to try and swipe at us but hey

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:08 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:02 pm Basically I'm saying the scoreline flattered Ireland, not that it was closer than it appeared.

It did flatter us but England didn't really create much with all that dominance. Is that the gameplan Eddie plans to use against the SH teams?

Presumably. He sure loves him some kick and defend - it used to be the go-to away from home but apparently he wants it for all occasions now. It's pretty grim, but I think everyone watching that match would say that the kicking game itself probably isn't a problem, it's when to kick and how bad Youngs and Farrell can be.

I have no problem with a kicking game that's well executed and well thought-out. Our whitewashing of Australia seemed to be that (my memory isn't what it used to be). Right now we're kicking the leather off it regardless of whether it means we miss opportunities, and the halfbacks are killing us with their general play. But hey, Eddie loves these guys so it's on him if they play poorly and continue to get kicked.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:28 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:03 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:51 pm You can do it, but expect to make sacrifices elsewhere and not be able to buy in world class players as you see fit on top of it.

If the Quins academy ever starts producing world class players then let me know how your theory goes.

Produced enough to legally win a title and a heap of quality internationals - odd choice to try and swipe at us but hey

You should look up Quins history. Probably the least amateur club in the old amateur era.

And they still won fuck all.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:31 am

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:08 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:02 pm Basically I'm saying the scoreline flattered Ireland, not that it was closer than it appeared.

It did flatter us but England didn't really create much with all that dominance. Is that the gameplan Eddie plans to use against the SH teams?

Presumably. He sure loves him some kick and defend - it used to be the go-to away from home but apparently he wants it for all occasions now. It's pretty grim, but I think everyone watching that match would say that the kicking game itself probably isn't a problem, it's when to kick and how bad Youngs and Farrell can be.

I have no problem with a kicking game that's well executed and well thought-out. Our whitewashing of Australia seemed to be that (my memory isn't what it used to be). Right now we're kicking the leather off it regardless of whether it means we miss opportunities, and the halfbacks are killing us with their general play. But hey, Eddie loves these guys so it's on him if they play poorly and continue to get kicked.

And I'm not having a go. Ireland aren't exactly babas-like in their approach so wouldn't really have much to stand on anyway.

Suppose the law changes have made holding onto the ball much riskier and kicking pays I guess.

Thing is I'm sure like a lot of you I watched four games of test rugby last weekend. Let's discount Wales v Georgia as Wales B vs a tier 2 team in a storm isn't necessarily representative.
In three games between sides who all went into their matches considering themselves well matched there were four tries.
Aus v Argentina - one clear cut opportunity I can remember for Petaia, from a kick chase
England v Ireland - Jonny May with an outstanding piece of individual skill from a broken up turnover, a free ball cross kick and then a clever chip from Burns. England otherwise didn't look too threatening and Ireland were dominated.
France v Scotland - France score one clever try that they nearly cocked up, Scotland could have played another 80 minutes and not scored.

This starts to look to me like Eddie is recognising the reality of test rugby at the moment, rather than being obstructively negative. Unless and until they change the laws to reduce subs/force people to commit to rucks, defence will dominate.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:47 am Thing is I'm sure like a lot of you I watched four games of test rugby last weekend. Let's discount Wales v Georgia as Wales B vs a tier 2 team in a storm isn't necessarily representative.
In three games between sides who all went into their matches considering themselves well matched there were four tries.
Aus v Argentina - one clear cut opportunity I can remember for Petaia, from a kick chase
England v Ireland - Jonny May with an outstanding piece of individual skill from a broken up turnover, a free ball cross kick and then a clever chip from Burns. England otherwise didn't look too threatening and Ireland were dominated.
France v Scotland - France score one clever try that they nearly cocked up, Scotland could have played another 80 minutes and not scored.

This starts to look to me like Eddie is recognising the reality of test rugby at the moment, rather than being obstructively negative. Unless and until they change the laws to reduce subs/force people to commit to rucks, defence will dominate.

I have been thinking along similar lines but will wait until I have seen George Ford at 10 - Faz was really pretty poor. I’d like to see improvement at 9, of course, but that is perhaps less likely.

15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 45 caps)
14. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 53 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 32 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 86 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 59 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 70 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 102 caps)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 62 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 52 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 38 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 41 caps)
5. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 67 caps)
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 26 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 20 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 54 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 21 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
21. Jack Willis (Wasps, 1 cap)
22. Dan Robson (Wasps, 5 caps)
23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 44 caps)

Ford back at 10

Earl AND Willis on the bench.

6-2 split on the bench...Rassie left an impression I guess.

Quite like the look of that side

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:17 am Quite like the look of that side

Youngs will fuck up any space Ford needs to create anything by taking an age meerkating before he finally decides to pass the ball, and when he does pass it will be either by his bootlaces or over his head.

I think our bench backrow is better than the likely starting Welsh one (no Navidi or Tipuric).

Yes I know this is setting up a unlikely and plucky Welsh win but still.

ASMO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:19 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:17 am Quite like the look of that side

Youngs will fuck up any space Ford needs to create anything by taking an age meerkating before he finally decides to pass the ball, and when he does pass it will be either by his bootlaces or over his head.

Youngs has to be priced in, I think we all agree we'd rather see someone else in that jersey.
I'm less convinced than most here that Ford is a creative genius, but certainly it's a backline that gives us a better chance of attacking rugby should the situation develop.

Surprised how young that squad is.
Only 3 at 30 and over

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:27 am

ASMO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:19 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:17 am Quite like the look of that side

Youngs will fuck up any space Ford needs to create anything by taking an age meerkating before he finally decides to pass the ball, and when he does pass it will be either by his bootlaces or over his head.

Youngs has to be priced in, I think we all agree we'd rather see someone else in that jersey.
I'm less convinced than most here that Ford is a creative genius, but certainly it's a backline that gives us a better chance of attacking rugby should the situation develop.

Youngs hasn't looked that bad AND Robson hasn't looked an improvement. So where to go isn't clear if wanting to move away from Youngs.

We could just bite the bullet and start the same someone for 10-15 games that isn't Youngs, but that's a huge chunk of the WC cycle gone if it doesn't work, and we might want to look at another starting hooker, and maybe players like Willis and Lawrence, and then maybe Cokanasiga or Thorley. It seems an awful lot of players on not a lot of caps for someone who might never be more than 3-4 games from the sack to pick.

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:24 am I think our bench backrow is better than the likely starting Welsh one (no Navidi or Tipuric).

Yes I know this is setting up a unlikely and plucky Welsh win but still.

This is a horrendous game. Wales have been total dogshit and we've been fairly decent - should that continue we ought to paste them. Of course we all know it doesn't work like that and this has all the hallmarks of Max Boyce's next song. Their players haven't all become useless overnight and they still can turn it on, if they're going to they'll do it Saturday. Pivac most likely fighting for his job as well.

I guess it's not a bad afternoon for the pubs to be closed.

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:14 am 6-2 split on the bench...Rassie left an impression I guess.

Is Earl covering centre or wing? You'd think wing with that many centres in the starting XV

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:33 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:27 am

ASMO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:19 am

Youngs will fuck up any space Ford needs to create anything by taking an age meerkating before he finally decides to pass the ball, and when he does pass it will be either by his bootlaces or over his head.

Youngs has to be priced in, I think we all agree we'd rather see someone else in that jersey.
I'm less convinced than most here that Ford is a creative genius, but certainly it's a backline that gives us a better chance of attacking rugby should the situation develop.

Youngs hasn't looked that bad AND Robson hasn't looked an improvement. So where to go isn't clear if wanting to move away from Youngs.

We could just bite the bullet and start the same someone for 10-15 games that isn't Youngs, but that's a huge chunk of the WC cycle gone if it doesn't work, and we might want to look at another starting hooker, and maybe players like Willis and Lawrence, and then maybe Cokanasiga or Thorley. It seems an awful lot of players on not a lot of caps for someone who might never be more than 3-4 games from the sack to pick.

I think the most plausible reason to have Youngs in the side is the combined 170+ caps at 9 and 10 has to be an advantage, combined with the fact Eddie knows he will execute his gameplan. I'd love for Spencer to be heading to France in 2023 with 30-40 caps under his belt, seems pretty unrealistic from here. I suppose Youngs will probably make it there.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:47 am
France v Scotland - France score one clever try that they nearly cocked up, Scotland could have played another 80 minutes and not scored.

And they wouldn't have scored that if Price hadn't run out of the line to try and get to Dupont

JJ on the wing worries me. He's a superb outside centre but he is at best a bit part, injury cover wing. If we had a full back who was reliable in defence and under the high ball (did Daly catch any last match), I'd be less worried, but the positioning required to play wing isn't something you can learn as you go along at Test level.

It also nullifies JJ's best strengths, his outside break at 13 and his excellent defence.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:42 am JJ on the wing worries me. He's a superb outside centre but he is at best a bit part, injury cover wing. If we had a full back who was reliable in defence and under the high ball (did Daly catch any last match), I'd be less worried, but the positioning required to play wing isn't something you can learn as you go along at Test level.

It also nullifies JJ's best strengths, his outside break at 13 and his excellent defence.

I agree - I think Wales will kick the leather off the ball too.

I've never quite been convinced by a Ford-Farrell-Slade midfield. I feel like more of a strike runner is required at 13 with that 10-12 combo. Would've been interesting to see if Lawrence got the nod were he fit.

Only 2 back replacements always worries me a bit, feels like tempting fate, but I suppose Earl could do a job in the backline if required.

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:03 am Ford back at 10

He'll still be under orders to put boot to ball like that's the stat he's getting paid for, but there is a much greater chance of us seeing some actual rugby while he's playing.

Eddie Jones has been in charge of England now for 57 test matches and, without checking, I'm fairly certain that Youngs has been picked in all of them. Most of that time, the England match fee has been £23,000 so Youngs has grossed about £1.3million from England in the Eddie Jones era.

No wonder he describes him as the best coach he's ever had.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:26 pm Eddie Jones has been in charge of England now for 57 test matches and, without checking, I'm fairly certain that Youngs has been picked in all of them. Most of that time, the England match fee has been £23,000 so Youngs has grossed about £1.3million from England in the Eddie Jones era.

No wonder he describes him as the best coach he's ever had.

45 wins for the clueless coach in that time

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:30 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:26 pm Eddie Jones has been in charge of England now for 57 test matches and, without checking, I'm fairly certain that Youngs has been picked in all of them. Most of that time, the England match fee has been £23,000 so Youngs has grossed about £1.3million from England in the Eddie Jones era.

No wonder he describes him as the best coach he's ever had.

45 wins for the clueless coach in that time

Losing on average a game every 5 matches in a 6 Nations competition is a bummer.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:45 am I've never quite been convinced by a Ford-Farrell-Slade midfield. I feel like more of a strike runner is required at 13 with that 10-12 combo. Would've been interesting to see if Lawrence got the nod were he fit.

Only 2 back replacements always worries me a bit, feels like tempting fate, but I suppose Earl could do a job in the backline if required.

How often do England have moments where there’s room for an entire backline? Scrums aside (where they're happy to win pens), don’t they often have forwards hitting up in midfield with backs more likely to get an out the back pass (better for speed than power) or using the outer third?

I’m no fan of the pod system but wonder if there’s no desire for a bosher if forwards are mostly doing that instead?

Niegs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:10 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:45 am I've never quite been convinced by a Ford-Farrell-Slade midfield. I feel like more of a strike runner is required at 13 with that 10-12 combo. Would've been interesting to see if Lawrence got the nod were he fit.

Only 2 back replacements always worries me a bit, feels like tempting fate, but I suppose Earl could do a job in the backline if required.

How often do England have moments where there’s room for an entire backline? Scrums aside (where they're happy to win pens), don’t they often have forwards hitting up in midfield with backs more likely to get an out the back pass (better for speed than power) or using the outer third?

I’m no fan of the pod system but wonder if there’s no desire for a bosher if forwards are mostly doing that instead?

Strike runner to my mind can either be bosh or pace. I think pace definitely offsets Ford-Farrell and Slade, for all his qualities, doesn't really offer that.

At the moment there are very few occasions when England are going particularly wide, but earlier in the reign with Ford-Farrell-JJ we went wide, wide a lot. It's not something beyond this team and I wonder if part of the forward dominance approach is centred around the midfield choices as much as emotional scarring from South Africa bumming us up front.

Rugby fans in the North can be grateful to the absolute shitshow and incompetence displayed by their governments in relation to Covid 19. Imagine being fleeced a pound of flesh to watch the turgid dross that will be served up during English v Wales. Soul destroying. No wonder you are all so angry and depressed. Should be Bleaky not Blighty.

Green light echo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:05 am Rugby fans in the North can be grateful to the absolute shitshow and incompetence displayed by their governments in relation to Covid 19. Imagine being fleeced a pound of flesh to watch the turgid dross that will be served up during English v Wales. Soul destroying. No wonder you are all so angry and depressed. Should be Bleaky not Blighty.

Thanks for your best wishes. Now fuck off twat!