NPR

Does anybody have the dream, the ones where you find yourself in a situation where you could have a drink, know you shouldn’t, feel all the guilt associated with having one but find yourself having one anyway, or you doing something and next thing you know you’re having a drink, thinking damn how did that happen, and feeling really guilty about it. When you wake you have this really guilty feeling followed by huge relief when you realise it was just a dream
Used to happen, actually still does every now and then, when I gave up smoking and has a few times now since stopping drinking, had one last night, not great.

About 18 years ago, I had disgraced myself yet again and had once more decided to stop drinking, with some degree of success, but I could feel the internal pressure mounting and was terrified I was going to go down the same sad, pathetic track I had done so many times. But I was resisting the common sense solution of joint a self-held group.

Then in the middle of the night of 10 January, 2004, I had the vividest dream I can ever remember, one in which I had started drinking again and reacted badly when my wife suggested I stop and seek help (all in the dream but it mirrored some actual events in my life). I woke in a cold sweat, feeling so bad that I just wanted to die, still believing it was real rather than a dream..

Then I noticed my wife sleeping peacefully beside me and realised it was a dream. The gasp of relief woke my wife and I contacted the self-help group that day and the rest was history.

Strangely, I have not had any dreams involving drinking since that one.

Jambanja wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:38 pm Does anybody have the dream, the ones where you find yourself in a situation where you could have a drink, know you shouldn’t, feel all the guilt associated with having one but find yourself having one anyway, or you doing something and next thing you know you’re having a drink, thinking damn how did that happen, and feeling really guilty about it. When you wake you have this really guilty feeling followed by huge relief when you realise it was just a dream
Used to happen, actually still does every now and then, when I gave up smoking and has a few times now since stopping drinking, had one last night, not great.

Yes, I had those dreams too. I know exactly what you mean.

Not for a quite a while mind you.

Did you see my question in previous page kiwias?

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:10 am Did you see my question in previous page kiwias?

About the 12 Steps in AA? Yes, I saw it but my self-help group is slightly different to AA in that it has no set routine such as the 12 Steps, so I am not really qualified to discuss it. Sorry about that. Several of the members of our fraternity are in AA and I guess one of them will chip in.

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:13 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:10 am Did you see my question in previous page kiwias?

About the 12 Steps in AA? Yes, I saw it but my self-help group is slightly different to AA in that it has no set routine such as the 12 Steps, so I am not really qualified to discuss it. Sorry about that. Several of the members of our fraternity are in AA and I guess one of them will chip in.

Ah ok, thanks. I had thought you joined AA, though, obviously more these days contributed to it (step 12).

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:15 am

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:13 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:10 am Did you see my question in previous page kiwias?

About the 12 Steps in AA? Yes, I saw it but my self-help group is slightly different to AA in that it has no set routine such as the 12 Steps, so I am not really qualified to discuss it. Sorry about that. Several of the members of our fraternity are in AA and I guess one of them will chip in.

Ah ok, thanks. I had thought you joined AA, though, obviously more these days contributed to it (step 12).

We adhere to very similar principles, without any reference to any higher power. Acceptance of our inability to control or manage our drinking is the starting point and we go include making amends to those we hurt and damaged.

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:15 am

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:13 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:10 am Did you see my question in previous page kiwias?

About the 12 Steps in AA? Yes, I saw it but my self-help group is slightly different to AA in that it has no set routine such as the 12 Steps, so I am not really qualified to discuss it. Sorry about that. Several of the members of our fraternity are in AA and I guess one of them will chip in.

Ah ok, thanks. I had thought you joined AA, though, obviously more these days contributed to it (step 12).

On the day my first granddaughter was born, the concept of alcohol vanished totally, to the degree that I am never conscious of it existing. However, I still attend my group's weekly meetings for two specific reasons: 1) to reassure my wife that I am totally committed to staying sober for the rest of my life, and 2) to be of some help to new members of our group as they struggle through the tough early months, in the same way that the older members helped me in my early days of sobriety -- basically paying forward.

Jambanja wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:38 pm Does anybody have the dream, the ones where you find yourself in a situation where you could have a drink, know you shouldn’t, feel all the guilt associated with having one but find yourself having one anyway, or you doing something and next thing you know you’re having a drink, thinking damn how did that happen, and feeling really guilty about it. When you wake you have this really guilty feeling followed by huge relief when you realise it was just a dream
Used to happen, actually still does every now and then, when I gave up smoking and has a few times now since stopping drinking, had one last night, not great.

Yup, had one the other night and had them 3 or 4 times last time I stopped for a few months. The guilt on waking up is immense, it's so odd.

Before my waffle, here is something I'd highly advocate - an Andrew Huberman podcast on the (negative) effects of alcohol. I'm a MASSIVE fan of his science-based approach to things and would commend his podcasts to anyone. Here's the most relevant one to this thread:

https://hubermanlab.com/what-alcohol-do ... in-health/

This was an eye-opener for me. I'm doing all these things to improve my body, mind and general health yet the simplest change is to not be a "chronic drinker" as he describes (which is someone who drinks on average 1 drink per day, i.e. 7 drinks per week - in any sort of regular pattern, e.g. 3-4 on each of a Fri & Sat or whatever). He is careful to label it as such, and stresses he is not demonising this behaviour as it's probably the typical type of drinker. But its adverse effects are very significant and really woke me up to how much of a poison this shit is.

I've been getting myself in much better shape generally over the last couple of months and this was the final improvement I needed. I don't intend to cut out alcohol completely from my life - I'm fortunate that I can stop, start and stop again easily, but binge drinking and regular ("chronic") drinking have to go. I haven't had a drop since 22nd Aug (in part because I had too heavy a session the Friday night before then) and plan to keep off it for 5 or so weeks. I had a rugby "residential" last weekend and stayed tee total throughout - which was a key test of will power and commitment. I'm pleased to say I didn't flinch and everyone around me was wholly supportive of what I was doing and why. I feel good nearly 2 weeks into it, although I've also been hitting the gym harder as well as tweaking my cold & hot routines before and after exercise quite a bit. (For reference, my new protocol is taking a 5 minute cold shower before gym, then 30-40 minutes of resistance + cardio, then get in the 39C hot tub for 20 mins). I feel amazing after it, make sure I rehydrate and I'm ready to tackle the world from 7am onwards.

I did have a bit of a struggle with my wife - she was saying she wouldn't enjoy a gin & tonic if I wasn't having one etc. A bit of peer pressure from an unexpected source... but I had a Gordons zero and slimline alongside her alcoholic version to "keep her happy" and all was well. I might pick this particular topic up again at some point in the future - there's more to this that needs addressed, I think.

My medium-term aim is not to stay on the wagon forever... I genuinely believe a max of say 7-8 drinks a month is something I can achieve without stressing or over-complicating anything. I have a good pal who does similar: he has a family history of alcohol abuse and is very focused on the slippery slope for him and others. He's very disciplined and doesn't need to cut it out completely, but probably does have that amount of booze in any given month, sometimes less. It's not a target to aim for, rather a cap to be conscious of.

I'm also noticing my weight drop significantly more quickly given my calorie deficit I'm targeting - previously the empty weekend calories from booze were killing it. My target of 15% body fat will be achieved, albeit not any time soon

pjm1

I enjoyed your post and am glad you are able to handle your drinking so you can enjoy a brew but also gain all the benefits of drinking healthily and sensibly. There was a time I would have a twinge of jealousy but that was a long time ago. I know with absolute certainty that this path is not available to me and that is fine. My life of total sobriety is very very sweet.

I’m the same now kiwias. There was a day where I was desperate for the hope I’d be able to come back to a few drinks a week at some point.

That desire has completely left me. At least to me, it now kind of feels like wishing to cut back to 1 pack of cigarettes a month. Rather than just ditching cigarettes. I’m sure that’s a massive false equivalence, but it’s “my lived experience” ( <<<<< now, no-one can discredit it)

However, for me, having that hope back then was a very helpful stepping stone.

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:18 pm I’m the same now kiwias. There was a day where I was desperate for the hope I’d be able to come back to a few drinks a week at some point.

That desire has completely left me. At least to me, it now kind of feels like wishing to cut back to 1 pack of cigarettes a month. Rather than just ditching cigarettes. I’m sure that’s a massive false equivalence, but it’s “my lived experience” ( <<<<< now, no-one can discredit it)

However, for me, having that hope back then was a very helpful stepping stone.

Every new member of my group goes through this phase of hoping they will reach a point of being able to drink sensibly, then they remember the many times that they have tried to control their drinking.

Accepting that this is no longer an option is a crucial step in maintaining their sobriety.

pjm1 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:13 pm Before my waffle, here is something I'd highly advocate - an Andrew Huberman podcast on the (negative) effects of alcohol. I'm a MASSIVE fan of his science-based approach to things and would commend his podcasts to anyone. Here's the most relevant one to this thread:

https://hubermanlab.com/what-alcohol-do ... in-health/

This was an eye-opener for me. I'm doing all these things to improve my body, mind and general health yet the simplest change is to not be a "chronic drinker" as he describes (which is someone who drinks on average 1 drink per day, i.e. 7 drinks per week - in any sort of regular pattern, e.g. 3-4 on each of a Fri & Sat or whatever). He is careful to label it as such, and stresses he is not demonising this behaviour as it's probably the typical type of drinker. But its adverse effects are very significant and really woke me up to how much of a poison this shit is.

That podcast is excellent. I've listened to the first hour so far and it's very informative. I'll finish it tomorrow.

Thanks

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:26 pm

pjm1 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:13 pm Before my waffle, here is something I'd highly advocate - an Andrew Huberman podcast on the (negative) effects of alcohol. I'm a MASSIVE fan of his science-based approach to things and would commend his podcasts to anyone. Here's the most relevant one to this thread:

https://hubermanlab.com/what-alcohol-do ... in-health/

This was an eye-opener for me. I'm doing all these things to improve my body, mind and general health yet the simplest change is to not be a "chronic drinker" as he describes (which is someone who drinks on average 1 drink per day, i.e. 7 drinks per week - in any sort of regular pattern, e.g. 3-4 on each of a Fri & Sat or whatever). He is careful to label it as such, and stresses he is not demonising this behaviour as it's probably the typical type of drinker. But its adverse effects are very significant and really woke me up to how much of a poison this shit is.

That podcast is excellent. I've listened to the first hour so far and it's very informative. I'll finish it tomorrow.

Thanks

How are you going with it all, Tichtheid, if you don't mind me asking? And absolutely no problem if you do.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:48 am
How are you going with it all, Tichtheid, if you don't mind me asking? And absolutely no problem if you do.

Off and on, but the trend is definitely towards staying off the sauce for longer periods.

I've learned to not beat myself up for having a few, but I think watching rugby will be a challenge when the season starts. I'm formulating a plan for dismissing the "oh a few with the rugby won't hurt" when it starts in a couple of weeks.

It's strange because when I watch Rugby Championship games on Saturday mornings I never ever have the urge to drink (I don't think I've ever had a drink in the morning), or even watching in the afternoon, I can do that quite happily with a mug of tea.
When I used to go to internationals I never drank before the games, whilst my companions would all be on it from eleven o'clock or earlier.
I did tend to make up for lost time after the match though.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not watching rugby that makes me reach for the Budvar, it's more the Friday night/Saturday night thing.
Even then if I ignore the urge at six pm by seven I've forgotten to get pissed and will quite happily not drink.
It's just that "well, I make that beer o'clock" at six on a Friday that is the final hurdle.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:04 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:48 am
How are you going with it all, Tichtheid, if you don't mind me asking? And absolutely no problem if you do.

Off and on, but the trend is definitely towards staying off the sauce for longer periods.

I've learned to not beat myself up for having a few, but I think watching rugby will be a challenge when the season starts. I'm formulating a plan for dismissing the "oh a few with the rugby won't hurt" when it starts in a couple of weeks.

It's strange because when I watch Rugby Championship games on Saturday mornings I never ever have the urge to drink (I don't think I've ever had a drink in the morning), or even watching in the afternoon, I can do that quite happily with a mug of tea.
When I used to go to internationals I never drank before the games, whilst my companions would all be on it from eleven o'clock or earlier.
I did tend to make up for lost time after the match though.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not watching rugby that makes me reach for the Budvar, it's more the Friday night/Saturday night thing.
Even then if I ignore the urge at six pm by seven I've forgotten to get pissed and will quite happily not drink.
It's just that "well, I make that beer o'clock" at six on a Friday that is the final hurdle.

Yeah, the reason I asked is I thought we are in a fairly similar place, and we are. It was always that 5pm itch that got me although I have to say that is gone now after a couple of months. I have to say that I find AF beer really, really helpful for those rugby moments when at home.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:18 am
Yeah, the reason I asked is I thought we are in a fairly similar place, and we are. It was always that 5pm itch that got me although I have to say that is gone now after a couple of months. I have to say that I find AF beer really, really helpful for those rugby moments when at home.

I'm going to the theatre this Friday, and I actually find it really easy to stay off it at things like that, it's just the rugby at home.

I liked the Peroni 0% that I had over the summer and I like BrewDog Nanny State, I'll get a few in for the rugby season.

The AF wine I tried was rank, I think I'd rather have Ribena.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:10 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:18 am
Yeah, the reason I asked is I thought we are in a fairly similar place, and we are. It was always that 5pm itch that got me although I have to say that is gone now after a couple of months. I have to say that I find AF beer really, really helpful for those rugby moments when at home.

I'm going to the theatre this Friday, and I actually find it really easy to stay off it at things like that, it's just the rugby at home.

I liked the Peroni 0% that I had over the summer and I like BrewDog Nanny State, I'll get a few in for the rugby season.

The AF wine I tried was rank, I think I'd rather have Ribena.

Some other breweries worth looking at: Mash Gang, Brulo, Jumpship, Lowtide, Days, Big Drop, Nirvana. Most a bit difficult to find in shops but online will send them out, the quality has gone through the roof in the last couple of years

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:04 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:48 am
How are you going with it all, Tichtheid, if you don't mind me asking? And absolutely no problem if you do.

Off and on, but the trend is definitely towards staying off the sauce for longer periods.

I've learned to not beat myself up for having a few, but I think watching rugby will be a challenge when the season starts. I'm formulating a plan for dismissing the "oh a few with the rugby won't hurt" when it starts in a couple of weeks.

It's strange because when I watch Rugby Championship games on Saturday mornings I never ever have the urge to drink (I don't think I've ever had a drink in the morning), or even watching in the afternoon, I can do that quite happily with a mug of tea.
When I used to go to internationals I never drank before the games, whilst my companions would all be on it from eleven o'clock or earlier.
I did tend to make up for lost time after the match though.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not watching rugby that makes me reach for the Budvar, it's more the Friday night/Saturday night thing.
Even then if I ignore the urge at six pm by seven I've forgotten to get pissed and will quite happily not drink.
It's just that "well, I make that beer o'clock" at six on a Friday that is the final hurdle.

That sounds pretty familiar / similar... don't have a problem abstaining at all, but once I slide a bit down the slope, it turns into a cliff and I quite happily get plastered. Not helped by two facts: (1) my tolerance is (or was, before this bout of teetotalness) is pretty high; and (2) I drink - generally, not just booze - bloody fast. So, I was finding I downed a few pints or got through most of a bottle of wine before I really start to feel much effect and then before I know it, I'm well on the way to getting properly on the merry bus.

Is this paraphrasing what you've found? I feel somewhat guilty lumping in my relatively modest challenges alongside others on this thread who are in a tougher place, mentally. At the end of the day, my regular flirtations with the demon drink are really just elective and entirely self-inflicted. I know not everyone is so lucky...

I've also found peer pressure is far less oppressive than it might have been once upon a time. With so many people doing dry Januaries etc., I've not felt any pressure (at least none that I couldn't handle easily) from anyone to "just have the one". Apart from my wife, that is! Even away on a rugby weekend, the lads were top drawer and more than happy for me to do my zero / tonic water thing.

Good luck!

edit: glad you found the podcast interesting. The rest of his stuff is fascinating and a real rabbit hole I've fallen down

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:25 am pjm1

I enjoyed your post and am glad you are able to handle your drinking so you can enjoy a brew but also gain all the benefits of drinking healthily and sensibly. There was a time I would have a twinge of jealousy but that was a long time ago. I know with absolute certainty that this path is not available to me and that is fine. My life of total sobriety is very very sweet.

I'm glad you've taken the post the way it was truly meant. I read, re-read and re-worked it a good few times because I was concerned it might come across as "I'm alright jack". That's not what I was meaning and hope no-one else found it to be self-aggrandising, either. The other thing I had to do was re-parse and re-review my own assessment of "I can stop, start and stop again"... to make sure it was actually true and I wasn't trying to convince myself I don't have "a problem". Of course, on reflection I do have a problem, albeit a different one from some others. My issue - as I laid out to Tichtheid in the post above, is that unless I'm careful, a few drinks quickly turns into shitfaced.

Listening to the podcast I referenced and others, it's clear (and patently obvious to anyone who has imbibed) that alcohol turns your decision making to shit. Among other things. So, I find it far easier to say "no" to having a drink than I do to saying "I'll stop here" after a few. I need to come up with a strategy to catch myself before I slide down that slope... otherwise I'd be better off simply not having any, ever.

Ironically, I'm actually feeling - for the first time since giving up booze last month - a bit crap today. My son's off school with a bug (and suspected concussion, but that's just a rugby issue) and Mrs pjm and daughter are all feeling rubbish with a cold. My weights session today was properly crap and I just feel lethargic. However, I seem to be dealing with it best of all so far, so I do wonder if being booze free for a few weeks now has given me a stronger system to deal with whatever it is. Who knows...

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:53 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:10 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:18 am
Yeah, the reason I asked is I thought we are in a fairly similar place, and we are. It was always that 5pm itch that got me although I have to say that is gone now after a couple of months. I have to say that I find AF beer really, really helpful for those rugby moments when at home.

I'm going to the theatre this Friday, and I actually find it really easy to stay off it at things like that, it's just the rugby at home.

I liked the Peroni 0% that I had over the summer and I like BrewDog Nanny State, I'll get a few in for the rugby season.

The AF wine I tried was rank, I think I'd rather have Ribena.

Some other breweries worth looking at: Mash Gang, Brulo, Jumpship, Lowtide, Days, Big Drop, Nirvana. Most a bit difficult to find in shops but online will send them out, the quality has gone through the roof in the last couple of years

Apols for peppering this thread with multiple posts, but it's easier to reply to each in turn (for me - sorry for the rest of you).

Can I add Brooklyn's "Special Effects" zero to the list. Awesome tipple (had a pint on Saturday in our local) and the first time I had it, I was drinking it all night without realising it was AF. Woke up feeling 100% and a bit confused as to how A happy mistake, if you will...

pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:32 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:53 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:10 am

I'm going to the theatre this Friday, and I actually find it really easy to stay off it at things like that, it's just the rugby at home.

I liked the Peroni 0% that I had over the summer and I like BrewDog Nanny State, I'll get a few in for the rugby season.

The AF wine I tried was rank, I think I'd rather have Ribena.

Some other breweries worth looking at: Mash Gang, Brulo, Jumpship, Lowtide, Days, Big Drop, Nirvana. Most a bit difficult to find in shops but online will send them out, the quality has gone through the roof in the last couple of years

Apols for peppering this thread with multiple posts, but it's easier to reply to each in turn (for me - sorry for the rest of you).

Can I add Brooklyn's "Special Effects" zero to the list. Awesome tipple (had a pint on Saturday in our local) and the first time I had it, I was drinking it all night without realising it was AF. Woke up feeling 100% and a bit confused as to how A happy mistake, if you will...

I have to say I've never been particularly impressed with Brooklyn, although I know others that love them. In saying that, an AF on tap is such a rarity I'd be all over it!

pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:17 pm

That sounds pretty familiar / similar... don't have a problem abstaining at all, but once I slide a bit down the slope, it turns into a cliff and I quite happily get plastered. Not helped by two facts: (1) my tolerance is (or was, before this bout of teetotalness) is pretty high; and (2) I drink - generally, not just booze - bloody fast. So, I was finding I downed a few pints or got through most of a bottle of wine before I really start to feel much effect and then before I know it, I'm well on the way to getting properly on the merry bus.

Is this paraphrasing what you've found?

Pretty much yeah. I have a ridiculous tolerance too, which is not good, I always think that having a Keith Richards-like constitution means you can do far more damage to yourself than if you conk out after three drinks.

I went for a pizza with my brother-in-law last week and had two glasses of beer. I had to stop there because I had a long drive the next day. Usually two would turn into a 7 hour session.

YMX and Kiwias were talking about this part, I'm not quite ready to stop completely, I'm still of the opinion that I can have one or two and stop there.
Maybe I'm kidding myself, we'll see.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:43 pm

pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:17 pm

That sounds pretty familiar / similar... don't have a problem abstaining at all, but once I slide a bit down the slope, it turns into a cliff and I quite happily get plastered. Not helped by two facts: (1) my tolerance is (or was, before this bout of teetotalness) is pretty high; and (2) I drink - generally, not just booze - bloody fast. So, I was finding I downed a few pints or got through most of a bottle of wine before I really start to feel much effect and then before I know it, I'm well on the way to getting properly on the merry bus.

Is this paraphrasing what you've found?

Pretty much yeah. I have a ridiculous tolerance too, which is not good, I always think that having a Keith Richards-like constitution means you can do far more damage to yourself than if you conk out after three drinks.

I went for a pizza with my brother-in-law last week and had two glasses of beer. I had to stop there because I had a long drive the next day. Usually two would turn into a 7 hour session.

YMX and Kiwias were talking about this part, I'm not quite ready to stop completely, I'm still of the opinion that I can have one or two and stop there.
Maybe I'm kidding myself, we'll see.

Well in that case, well done on limiting to 2 beers. I find if you can celebrate the small wins, it all builds up to reinforcing the type of behaviours and outcomes you're aiming for.

I'm away on a lads trip to Mallorca at the end of my self-imposed abstinence. I'm realistic that I won't be sticking to just a drink or two each night, but I'm perversely hopeful that I'll get something of a hangover by then so that it self moderates. I'm someone who needs to feel some sort of pain to tell me I'm pushing things too far - which I haven't had on the drink front really that much over the last couple of years.

Mid-Oct I'm then away on a family holiday during the school break. All inclusive but between my drinking reduction plan and also healthy eating (high fibre, high protein) I'm planning on being a really fussy bugger on both fronts. Fingers crossed.

Good luck with your continued self-moderation - it sounds like you and I have similar challenges and approach (including the unanswered question of whether we're actually kidding ourselves...)

pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:51 pm I find if you can celebrate the small wins, it all builds up to reinforcing the type of behaviours and outcomes you're aiming for.

This is definitely true. My main interest in life is music, one teacher I came across is a guy called Dan Crary, he's a guitarist. He has also taught academic subjects at university and has buddies in the psychology department, I learned an important point from him;

It was thought that people who didn't achieve what they might did so because they didn't set goals for themselves. In fact the opposite was true, but the goals they set were so high that it was impossible to achieve - I might say I'm going to play a piece by Paganini and I'll do it by next Tuesday. Well, next Tuesday comes around and of course I can't play it, so I've failed and if I keep doing that it reinforces failure, it becomes a pattern.

What Crary says to do it to learn a tiny part of the Paganini, learn to play it well. Then learn the next tiny part and so on. He also says that telling someone close to you that you've achieved this will reinforce the "win". That winning behaviour becomes a habit.

I think it's applicable here because we can say, "I won't drink today".

I'm not going to say that I'll never drink again, that's the whole Paganini.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:23 pm

pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:51 pm I find if you can celebrate the small wins, it all builds up to reinforcing the type of behaviours and outcomes you're aiming for.

This is definitely true. My main interest in life is music, one teacher I came across is a guy called Dan Crary, he's a guitarist. He has also taught academic subjects at university and has buddies in the psychology department, I learned an important point from him;

It was thought that people who didn't achieve what they might did so because they didn't set goals for themselves. In fact the opposite was true, but the goals they set were so high that it was impossible to achieve - I might say I'm going to play a piece by Paganini and I'll do it by next Tuesday. Well, next Tuesday comes around and of course I can't play it, so I've failed and if I keep doing that it reinforces failure, it becomes a pattern.

What Crary says to do it to learn a tiny part of the Paganini, learn to play it well. Then learn the next tiny part and so on. He also says that telling someone close to you that you've achieved this will reinforce the "win". That winning behaviour becomes a habit.

I think it's applicable here because we can say, "I won't drink today".

I'm not going to say that I'll never drink again, that's the whole Paganini.

Love it!

pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:28 pm

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:25 am pjm1

I enjoyed your post and am glad you are able to handle your drinking so you can enjoy a brew but also gain all the benefits of drinking healthily and sensibly. There was a time I would have a twinge of jealousy but that was a long time ago. I know with absolute certainty that this path is not available to me and that is fine. My life of total sobriety is very very sweet.

I'm glad you've taken the post the way it was truly meant. I read, re-read and re-worked it a good few times because I was concerned it might come across as "I'm alright jack". That's not what I was meaning and hope no-one else found it to be self-aggrandising, either. The other thing I had to do was re-parse and re-review my own assessment of "I can stop, start and stop again"... to make sure it was actually true and I wasn't trying to convince myself I don't have "a problem". Of course, on reflection I do have a problem, albeit a different one from some others. My issue - as I laid out to Tichtheid in the post above, is that unless I'm careful, a few drinks quickly turns into shitfaced.

Listening to the podcast I referenced and others, it's clear (and patently obvious to anyone who has imbibed) that alcohol turns your decision making to shit. Among other things. So, I find it far easier to say "no" to having a drink than I do to saying "I'll stop here" after a few. I need to come up with a strategy to catch myself before I slide down that slope... otherwise I'd be better off simply not having any, ever.

Ironically, I'm actually feeling - for the first time since giving up booze last month - a bit crap today. My son's off school with a bug (and suspected concussion, but that's just a rugby issue) and Mrs pjm and daughter are all feeling rubbish with a cold. My weights session today was properly crap and I just feel lethargic. However, I seem to be dealing with it best of all so far, so I do wonder if being booze free for a few weeks now has given me a stronger system to deal with whatever it is. Who knows...

Your post was excellent. The comment about alcohol turning the decision-making capacity to shit reminds me of a question my son asked me after he accompanied me to my group meeting on one of his visits to my home in Japan. We were having dinner on the way home and he asked me if I did not have a stop switch the way he did, a voice that told him that he had had enough for the night and it was time to switch to juice or water.

I said that when I was still drinking, I was usually aware of the voice but another voice telling me I could stop after just one more drink was always the one I listened to, and from then on, there were no more voices. Now, the only voice I listen to is the one telling me "JUST DON'T FUCKING DRINK!!!!"

Hi all I know this an anonymous forum but can I say the stories you have all shared have been inspiring to read. Not in a sports commentator meaning of the word, but in an actually motivating to change life's circumstances.

For me I've been toying with not drinking for a long time. I know that once I get pass a couple, only everyone else leaving will stop me knocking back beer/wine/cocktails- although I did catch myself 'just having a night cap at home after that.

It all came to a head when I realized how bad my decisions were, I had a work function for 6 hours at a bar, spent up a heap of money and then drove home - how I didn't kill someone else or myself I have no idea.

The worst thing is the effect this is having on these around me. I have a wife and kid with another on the way. My wife has said since the last night out that if a late night like that happens again she's out of here.

Reading these stories on here has helped me realise, I don't need to 'cut back' because I can't. Only two weeks in but teetotal for now. I haven't got myself into the idea of never drinking again, or drinking again in a certain time period. I have no idea what this journey will be, I just know that at the moment if it involves booze I will lose pretty much everything. The last few boozy sessions I haven't just had hangovers but near panic attacks worrying about my complete lack of control the previous night.

Finding it tricky to explain to my wife my happiness at making it through social situations without having a drink, it scares her that I'm in a worse state mentally than she thought

Anyway that's my spiel for now, will drop in here to read but may not post much. I have a couple good mates who've I've shared how far I was slipping but it helps to have this kind of rant from my phone, so thank you all.

Monkey Magic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:55 am Hi all I know this an anonymous forum but can I say the stories you have all shared have been inspiring to read. Not in a sports commentator meaning of the word, but in an actually motivating to change life's circumstances.

For me I've been toying with not drinking for a long time. I know that once I get pass a couple, only everyone else leaving will stop me knocking back beer/wine/cocktails- although I did catch myself 'just having a night cap at home after that.

It all came to a head when I realized how bad my decisions were, I had a work function for 6 hours at a bar, spent up a heap of money and then drove home - how I didn't kill someone else or myself I have no idea.

The worst thing is the effect this is having on these around me. I have a wife and kid with another on the way. My wife has said since the last night out that if a late night like that happens again she's out of here.

Reading these stories on here has helped me realise, I don't need to 'cut back' because I can't. Only two weeks in but teetotal for now. I haven't got myself into the idea of never drinking again, or drinking again in a certain time period. I have no idea what this journey will be, I just know that at the moment if it involves booze I will lose pretty much everything. The last few boozy sessions I haven't just had hangovers but near panic attacks worrying about my complete lack of control the previous night.

Finding it tricky to explain to my wife my happiness at making it through social situations without having a drink, it scares her that I'm in a worse state mentally than she thought

Anyway that's my spiel for now, will drop in here to read but may not post much. I have a couple good mates who've I've shared how far I was slipping but it helps to have this kind of rant from my phone, so thank you all.

Thanks, and well done for posting MM.

This is the crucial line for me:

Reading these stories on here has helped me realise, I don't need to 'cut back' because I can't.

That was the major realisation for me. After 5 months off, and a planned come back to drinking, I found myself 4 months later back in the same position and had to admit once and for all I can't keep it sensible. As I've said before, I wasn't a passed out in the gutter drunk, but was drinking enough, and often enough, that it was affecting every facet of my life negatively. As a few have said, I don't think you need to get your head around not drinking ever again at this stage - if I'm honest I still haven't - but each week that goes by at the moment it seems less and less likely that I'll go back.

That's a tough one re the wife not understanding where you are. I'll leave that to someone better qualified that me to answer that. I was lucky in that my wife was also a fairly big boozer who has managed to cut back easily but realised early that probably wasn't an option for me. Maybe an open conversation that shows how much of a struggle it is for you and that even so you are doing it for her and the kids.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:45 am

Monkey Magic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:55 am Hi all I know this an anonymous forum but can I say the stories you have all shared have been inspiring to read. Not in a sports commentator meaning of the word, but in an actually motivating to change life's circumstances.

For me I've been toying with not drinking for a long time. I know that once I get pass a couple, only everyone else leaving will stop me knocking back beer/wine/cocktails- although I did catch myself 'just having a night cap at home after that.

It all came to a head when I realized how bad my decisions were, I had a work function for 6 hours at a bar, spent up a heap of money and then drove home - how I didn't kill someone else or myself I have no idea.

The worst thing is the effect this is having on these around me. I have a wife and kid with another on the way. My wife has said since the last night out that if a late night like that happens again she's out of here.

Reading these stories on here has helped me realise, I don't need to 'cut back' because I can't. Only two weeks in but teetotal for now. I haven't got myself into the idea of never drinking again, or drinking again in a certain time period. I have no idea what this journey will be, I just know that at the moment if it involves booze I will lose pretty much everything. The last few boozy sessions I haven't just had hangovers but near panic attacks worrying about my complete lack of control the previous night.

Finding it tricky to explain to my wife my happiness at making it through social situations without having a drink, it scares her that I'm in a worse state mentally than she thought

Anyway that's my spiel for now, will drop in here to read but may not post much. I have a couple good mates who've I've shared how far I was slipping but it helps to have this kind of rant from my phone, so thank you all.

Thanks, and well done for posting MM.

This is the crucial line for me:

Reading these stories on here has helped me realise, I don't need to 'cut back' because I can't.

That was the major realisation for me. After 5 months off, and a planned come back to drinking, I found myself 4 months later back in the same position and had to admit once and for all I can't keep it sensible. As I've said before, I wasn't a passed out in the gutter drunk, but was drinking enough, and often enough, that it was affecting every facet of my life negatively. As a few have said, I don't think you need to get your head around not drinking ever again at this stage - if I'm honest I still haven't - but each week that goes by at the moment it seems less and less likely that I'll go back.

That's a tough one re the wife not understanding where you are. I'll leave that to someone better qualified that me to answer that. I was lucky in that my wife was also a fairly big boozer who has managed to cut back easily but realised early that probably wasn't an option for me. Maybe an open conversation that shows how much of a struggle it is for you and that even so you are doing it for her and the kids.

Thanks Slick

On the wife front, there's a fair amount going on in our life so can understand the added pressure of trying process this as well being a slower process.

And the near 20 years we've known each other I've always been a drinker who had massive nights but always a 'fun' drinker. The last 18 months that has really changed for me but might not have been as noticeable for others, except the last few months for her where I've gone to work then suddenly a drink at work turns into 1am and she has been stuck at home looking after our kid

MM

I really liked your posts for the awareness of your situation you expressed. You are without doubt at a significant turning point in your life, and that of your wife and family, but I would not generate unnecessary pressure on yourself of thinking in terms of the rest of your life.

Your focus right now needs to be on getting through this day, then the next, then the next. As they say, one day at a time .

I also loved the comments about your wife’s reactions. Don’t beat yourself up about trying to ensure she understands the internal workings of your mind, at a time when you yourself do not totally understand it.

She will see the benefits of you not drinking and will come to terms with it. Even if you do not attend a self help group such as AA, I would suggest that your wife will find it incredibly helpful to attend meetings of Al-Anon, the AA meeting for family members of alcoholics.

Hang around in here whenever you want, mate, you are always welcome.
Best of luck.

Wow, MM... what a candid and sobering (!) post. Thank you for taking the time and backbone to post - it helps everyone.

I'll leave others better qualified to comment on the booze aspects. The part that struck me was your wife's reaction and your understandable concerns about her attitude to your change of lifestyle. I remember when our first kid came along, my wife felt like her whole life had turned upside down (to be fair, it had and I felt pretty similar!) Everything was different and whilst she was delighted with our change, she did actually go through a touch of PND. It's more common than many think. Even after she got back on an even keel, her judgement about the family dynamic was quite different from mine. I had life more or less back as normal - back to work, socialising with friends and getting the bonus of coming home and enjoying the new family life. Contrastingly, she was not back to work (and would not be any time soon), had to "deal" with baby stuff while I was away and whenever she met up with friends, it was baby talk everywhere. There was no escape.

I can't remember what it was, but there was one incident years ago in the middle of that when I just didn't get why she was being so irrational about something. It turns out she felt like all the (family) pressure was on her, I got to swan off to work and social stuff and she had to carry the family on her own. It wasn't fair, but it was her perspective.

I wonder if there might be an element of similar perception bias for your situation, MM? My solution was to talk, understand her pressures and reassure that I was there for her and support. By contextualising your choice on the basis of being more present to help with family stuff, give her time out and allow her to go out for nights out, you might be able to get her perception to shift to positivity. You'll be able to drive her to and from events where she can get a bit merry with friends... focus on the positives for her and how your life choices are all about family and "evening up" the childcare responsibilities because you understand how tough it must be for her.

Just my 2p.

Quite a story MM.

I was fortunate I spoke to someone about it, as my anxiety hit the roof from drinking. She coached me with CBT.

One key thing for me at the start of the journey was to capture (writing it all down) how I felt right now about the effects of drinking was having on me, both emotionally and physically - work/family/health. I’m pleased I did as it’s a shock sometimes reading back on it. And that provides a little bit of steel.

The other things to be aware of are urges which will happen time to time. But like a wave they will go.
The other part is the triggers of these urges. Could be a time of the day. A certain location. It’s your mind and body thinking - right it’s now normally alcohol time. These will create the urges, so it is a good plan to change behaviour to avoid the triggers. Mine were quite noticeable. A knot feeling in my gut.

Breathing exercises are a god send. And I never though much of the idea. But if you’re feeling a bit anxiety ridden or having an urge, spend 5+ mins doing a breathing exercise.

I quite like the calm app in the App Store - the breathing exercises are good. It’s got free parts. And usually a free trial for the full pack. I paid for year sub.
https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/calm-slee ... d571800810

I should add, the app above is good, but if honest I don’t do the meditation parts of it. The American lady on it, her accent is a bit annoying.



I sometimes feel when I read back what I write above about my experiences and lessons I encountered, I can’t but help feel like it comes across in a patronising way. I’m really not meaning it to be, so sorry if it comes over like that.



Because this thread is pinned, sadly I don’t see some of the new entries. However, I only just discovered you can subscribe to a thread.

Click on the spanner/tools item at the top of this thread, and click subscribe. And apparently you get notifications- like when someone quotes your post.

Hopefully it works !

Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:45 pm
I sometimes feel when I read back what I write above about my experiences and lessons I encountered, I can’t but help feel like it comes across in a patronising way. I’m really not meaning it to be, so sorry if it comes over like that.

This is raw stuff, I think it takes a lot to admit the beast is getting the better of you/one and I don't think it could ever be thought of as patronising to relate such vulnerability and how you overcame it.

I've found your posts to be very helpful.

Thanks mate, that means a lot.

Thanks YMX and pjm1.

Pjm1 I think that is a big part of it, feeling she is carrying the family can, so have already started looking to address that sort if stuff as you've said

There’s some really interesting stuff here and two things particularly struck a chord with me - tolerance and escalation.
Reading through and considering this is a rugby bored I have a suspicion this may be related to the company that a lot of us keep.

How much I drink has been on my mind for a while but Saturday night brought it into focus. We had a largeish party where we had a smattering of all our combined friendship groups. Everyone there drinks but it was very much evident that the guys I know through cricket and rugby were drinking at probably double the rate of everyone else. A few of my fiancee’s friends stayed over afterwards and they absolutely could not believe that after the amount I had drunk I was up at 8, cleaning up and with barely any ill effects. I’d have probably considered that a badge of honour at 21, but now it’s a bit of a wake up call.

Again, these people drink, but they don’t ‘drink’. What’s considered normal in men’s sports environments is actually not normal at all. Probably obvious but it never really occurred to me before.

Like a lot of people on here, I’m perfectly capable of not drinking or having a casual drink or two. My challenge is that if there is any potential for escalation I am the first in line and am capable of *really* escalating.
Tolerance comes in at this stage. If bad things happen when I drink too much I’m sure I’d have stopped. I drunk drove once when I was 19 and hand on heart have never done so again. I got beaten up once on a night out and again, it was absolutely not my fault, I was wearing the same shirt as someone who had got too close to a drugged up man’s gf and he decked me from behind.
Broadly, I’ve never had to worry overly about being very drunk because I’m a happy drunk and once I’ve had way too much I go to sleep. So a confrontation with this has never been forced.

Other reasons for looking at this? As alluded to earlier I’m getting married next year and the future Mrs PB deserves better than being married to a heavy drinker. A significant chunk of her family are Glaswegian and probably unsurprisingly there are some absolute horror stories from there with drink. So when I’m waking up on a mate’s sofa Sunday morning as we’ve decided to drink whisky and watch the ‘03 World Cup final/‘05 Ashes back on youtube after the clubhouse has closed, she’s reminded of people picked out of the Clyde, bankruptcies and parallel lives.
I owe it to her to sort this out and am attempting to start now.
My aim is to reset my relationship with drink. I enjoy a pint or a glass of wine but would like a couple to genuinely mean that, with a rare exception. My aim is to not have a drink until I go to Twickenham in the autumn, there’s zero danger of me not drinking there but my hope is that managing other social events and a holiday without alcohol in the mean time will allow me to not give up but be able to genuinely drink in moderation. Maybe, as a few have alluded to on here, that will prove a forlorn hope.

Good luck PB.

I know there are differing political views on this bored but this topic is beyond that, we're all the same in this room.

I don't think there is one overnight fix for a remodelling of one's relationship with alcohol, it may take a long time to get to where we want to be.
Personally I find that the longer I stay off, the less I want to drink, but the reverse is also true, getting pissed one night can easily lead to a week/fortnight on it.