NPR

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 10:03 am Hancock making a tasty target - wonder if he'll be hung out to dry?

Cummings says that, when they were trying to set up the test and trace system, Matt Hancock, the health secretary, interfered. He says that was because he wanted officials to focus on work that would help him meet the target for reaching 100,000 tests per day that he had set. He said Hancock should have been sacked for this alone. It was “criminal, disgraceful behaviour that caused serious harm”

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:33 am One might conclude the connection to be some risible governmental policies, which even if implemented well are so stupid any success would be ephemeral. But for too many governments if ephemeral is long enough to get a good headline, say something like 'Get Brexit done', it doesn't matter if much of what follows is dafter than a syphilitic badger

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:35 am There is a report here which compares Civil Services from across the world on 12 areas, how each country scores on each of the 12 areas is shown on page 28, with details for the UK on page 66.

The UK comes top overall, with improvement needed in some areas.

International Civil Service Effectiveness Index 2019

https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/ ... Report.pdf

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:39 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:33 am One might conclude the connection to be some risible governmental policies, which even if implemented well are so stupid any success would be ephemeral. But for too many governments if ephemeral is long enough to get a good headline, say something like 'Get Brexit done', it doesn't matter if much of what follows is dafter than a syphilitic badger

Right, which is why I expanded this to a 20 year timeframe (and could go further). They fail regardless of the merits of the policy itself.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:35 am There is a report here which compares Civil Services from across the world on 12 areas, how each country scores on each of the 12 areas is shown on page 28, with details for the UK on page 66.

The UK comes top overall, with improvement needed in some areas.

International Civil Service Effectiveness Index 2019

https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/ ... Report.pdf

Do we stick this on the fridge next to the reports that placed us world number one for pandemic response?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:42 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:39 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:33 am One might conclude the connection to be some risible governmental policies, which even if implemented well are so stupid any success would be ephemeral. But for too many governments if ephemeral is long enough to get a good headline, say something like 'Get Brexit done', it doesn't matter if much of what follows is dafter than a syphilitic badger

Right, which is why I expanded this to a 20 year timeframe (and could go further). They fail regardless of the merits of the policy itself.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:35 am There is a report here which compares Civil Services from across the world on 12 areas, how each country scores on each of the 12 areas is shown on page 28, with details for the UK on page 66.

The UK comes top overall, with improvement needed in some areas.

International Civil Service Effectiveness Index 2019

https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/ ... Report.pdf

Do we stick this on the fridge next to the reports that placed us world number one for pandemic response?

I don't think that would stop the knee jerk reactions some people have against the Civil Service, it's almost as if it's ideological rather than evidence-based.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:36 am Wonder how Hancock himself will respond to this? Hardly seems the type to launch a stinging riposte but if he leaves it to the PM and other cabinet members to defend him he'll look even more weak.

Back in the hearing Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:44 am

What would you hold up as Civil Service led public policy successes over the last 20 years?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:44 am What would you hold up as Civil Service led public policy successes over the last 20 years?

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:45 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:36 am Wonder how Hancock himself will respond to this? Hardly seems the type to launch a stinging riposte but if he leaves it to the PM and other cabinet members to defend him he'll look even more weak.

....and a bit more pain for him

Back in the hearing Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

He says "Hancock was interfering" with things in government to make sure he hit the target "when the PM was on his death bed".
Cummings says he and Sir Patrick Vallance had to start calling around government officials and saying "do not do what Hancock says," he says Hancock was instructing officials to hold tests back so he could hit his 100,000 target by the end of April.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:45 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:36 am Wonder how Hancock himself will respond to this? Hardly seems the type to launch a stinging riposte but if he leaves it to the PM and other cabinet members to defend him he'll look even more weak.

....and a bit more pain for him

Back in the hearing Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:56 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:45 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:36 am Wonder how Hancock himself will respond to this? Hardly seems the type to launch a stinging riposte but if he leaves it to the PM and other cabinet members to defend him he'll look even more weak.

....and a bit more pain for him

Back in the hearing Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

...........and some more!

He says "Hancock was interfering" with things in government to make sure he hit the target "when the PM was on his death bed".
Cummings says he and Sir Patrick Vallance had to start calling around government officials and saying "do not do what Hancock says," he says Hancock was instructing officials to hold tests back so he could hit his 100,000 target by the end of April.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:01 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:56 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:45 am
....and a bit more pain for him

...........and some more!

He says "Hancock was interfering" with things in government to make sure he hit the target "when the PM was on his death bed".
Cummings says he and Sir Patrick Vallance had to start calling around government officials and saying "do not do what Hancock says," he says Hancock was instructing officials to hold tests back so he could hit his 100,000 target by the end of April.

Many people pointing out that as well as Hancock the blame for not having a strategy also lies with former Health Sec Jeremy Hunt.

Seriously those two names just show that the Tories could definitely look like they only wanted the DoH to be a failure!

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:55 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:44 am What would you hold up as Civil Service led public policy successes over the last 20 years?

And what be be your recipe for turning it into a success?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:07 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:55 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:44 am What would you hold up as Civil Service led public policy successes over the last 20 years?

And what be be your recipe for turning it into a success?

Various things (not exhaustive and obviously I'm just a bloke on the internet):
1) decentralise the Treasury. It is not an accident that spending is concentrated in London, even when the cost/benefit analysis shows money should be better spent elsewhere. Crucially, this isn't about sending the back office to Newport, decision makers need to live and work outside of London. There's no way the trains between Manchester and Leeds would be as shite as they are if SCS were commuting on them.
2) Greater accountability on results. Harries 'masks don't work' has been promoted. Screw the hierarchy, promote people who get results and sack those who don't.
3) Hire experts on subject areas. We clearly don't have enough (see Heywood unable to find anyone in the CS who understood the oil market during the GFC). Generalists have uses, but reserves of expertise are lacking and this leads to delays, obfuscation and poor outcomes.
4) Pay good CS more! A talented civil servant in their 30s can barely afford a shoebox within London, no wonder they lose talent. Reward success, penalise failure.
5) Stop relying on consultancy firms. They don't have huge expertise on anything, they just outsource decision making. CS should be encouraged to be decisive and use their own initiatives.
6) Clearer, and more public metrics for success.
7) Change of mindset. Objective - sustained economic growth. Crack that and everything becomes easier. There's still a managed decline mentality, a contributor to a wasted decade.

I'd say these are a start.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:11 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:07 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:55 am

And what be be your recipe for turning it into a success?

Various things (not exhaustive and obviously I'm just a bloke on the internet):
1) decentralise the Treasury. It is not an accident that spending is concentrated in London, even when the cost/benefit analysis shows money should be better spent elsewhere. Crucially, this isn't about sending the back office to Newport, decision makers need to live and work outside of London. There's no way the trains between Manchester and Leeds would be as shite as they are if SCS were commuting on them.
2) Greater accountability on results. Harries 'masks don't work' has been promoted. Screw the hierarchy, promote people who get results and sack those who don't.
3) Hire experts on subject areas. We clearly don't have enough (see Heywood unable to find anyone in the CS who understood the oil market during the GFC). Generalists have uses, but reserves of expertise are lacking and this leads to delays, obfuscation and poor outcomes.
4) Pay good CS more! A talented civil servant in their 30s can barely afford a shoebox within London, no wonder they lose talent. Reward success, penalise failure.
5) Stop relying on consultancy firms. They don't have huge expertise on anything, they just outsource decision making. CS should be encouraged to be decisive and use their own initiatives.
6) Clearer, and more public metrics for success.
7) Change of mindset. Objective - sustained economic growth. Crack that and everything becomes easier. There's still a managed decline mentality, a contributor to a wasted decade.

I'd say these are a start.

Fair enough, I was half expecting "privatise it!"

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:07 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:55 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:44 am What would you hold up as Civil Service led public policy successes over the last 20 years?

And what be be your recipe for turning it into a success?

Various things (not exhaustive and obviously I'm just a bloke on the internet):
1) decentralise the Treasury. It is not an accident that spending is concentrated in London, even when the cost/benefit analysis shows money should be better spent elsewhere. Crucially, this isn't about sending the back office to Newport, decision makers need to live and work outside of London. There's no way the trains between Manchester and Leeds would be as shite as they are if SCS were commuting on them.
2) Greater accountability on results. Harries 'masks don't work' has been promoted. Screw the hierarchy, promote people who get results and sack those who don't.
3) Hire experts on subject areas. We clearly don't have enough (see Heywood unable to find anyone in the CS who understood the oil market during the GFC). Generalists have uses, but reserves of expertise are lacking and this leads to delays, obfuscation and poor outcomes.
4) Pay good CS more! A talented civil servant in their 30s can barely afford a shoebox within London, no wonder they lose talent. Reward success, penalise failure.
5) Stop relying on consultancy firms. They don't have huge expertise on anything, they just outsource decision making. CS should be encouraged to be decisive and use their own initiatives.
6) Clearer, and more public metrics for success.
7) Change of mindset. Objective - sustained economic growth. Crack that and everything becomes easier. There's still a managed decline mentality, a contributor to a wasted decade.

I'd say these are a start.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:48 pm The civil service did used to have loads of expertise, but they were all gotten rid of as a cost-cutting exercise, a whole generation were chucked out.
One of the problems facing the Civil Service when Blair came as PM was that no one knew how to spend the money properly

Macca wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:05 pm You hear that?

That's the sound of Matt Hancock going under the bus.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:38 am


Well, we all know "but the economy..."

Slick wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:32 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:07 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 11:55 am

And what be be your recipe for turning it into a success?

Various things (not exhaustive and obviously I'm just a bloke on the internet):
1) decentralise the Treasury. It is not an accident that spending is concentrated in London, even when the cost/benefit analysis shows money should be better spent elsewhere. Crucially, this isn't about sending the back office to Newport, decision makers need to live and work outside of London. There's no way the trains between Manchester and Leeds would be as shite as they are if SCS were commuting on them.
2) Greater accountability on results. Harries 'masks don't work' has been promoted. Screw the hierarchy, promote people who get results and sack those who don't.
3) Hire experts on subject areas. We clearly don't have enough (see Heywood unable to find anyone in the CS who understood the oil market during the GFC). Generalists have uses, but reserves of expertise are lacking and this leads to delays, obfuscation and poor outcomes.
4) Pay good CS more! A talented civil servant in their 30s can barely afford a shoebox within London, no wonder they lose talent. Reward success, penalise failure.
5) Stop relying on consultancy firms. They don't have huge expertise on anything, they just outsource decision making. CS should be encouraged to be decisive and use their own initiatives.
6) Clearer, and more public metrics for success.
7) Change of mindset. Objective - sustained economic growth. Crack that and everything becomes easier. There's still a managed decline mentality, a contributor to a wasted decade.

I'd say these are a start.

Good post. Have highlighted where I strongly agree. Also, hire on merit and make getting rid of waste easier.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:32 pm Chances of Cummings doing anything to upset Sunak seem to be diminishing if he's not going to mention Sunak's prime role in bringing in the anti-lockdown fuckwits to talk to the PM.

Macca wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:05 pm You hear that?

That's the sound of Matt Hancock going under the bus.

Cummings says Boris Johnson was told he should keep Matt Hancock as health secretary so that he could sack him when the public inquiry happened.
He says his own view was that waiting was a mistake, because keeping Hancock in place would give him more time to mess things up.

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:55 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:32 pm Chances of Cummings doing anything to upset Sunak seem to be diminishing if he's not going to mention Sunak's prime role in bringing in the anti-lockdown fuckwits to talk to the PM.

Why would he want to cheese off the next PM?

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 3:10 pm "Control the shopping trolley" sounds like a genuine Johnson-ism




Meanwhile I can't see anything said about Gove yet

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 3:10 pm "Control the shopping trolley" sounds like a genuine Johnson-ism




Meanwhile I can't see anything said about Gove yet

He says the Chancellor was "at his wit's end about the shopping trolley," referring to his earlier comments describing the prime minister as a "shopping trolley" who went from one side to the other.