NPR

SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:19 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:08 pm On an entirely different topic, today I learned that Scotland won a bronze medal in the field hockey tournament in the 1908 Olympics, playing as Scotland.

England got the gold and Ireland the siver

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:12 am Had the boxing on in the background.

The commentators "Carini must be mad about something"... Commentator knows why but rather than treat the audience as grown ups they bring up that Carini is emotional and it could be about losing her Dad after Tokyo. The Italian was heard shouting "It is not right" after the final announcement.

Regardless of what one believes about the rights and the wrongs about who is competing in the boxing, the commentator should be truthful. There is controversary because the IOC have taken over running Olympic boxing from the IBA. The IBA had banned Khelif from the world championships due to not meeting the eligibility criteria to compete in the female boxing category. They are believed to have failed gender tests. The IOC apply a different set of rules and therefore two boxers are allowed to complete.

The IBA are incompetent clowns so their test could have been rubbish but those are the facts, and shouldn't be offensive to anyone if a commentator states them rather then talking absolute bollocks about someones upset about their Dad who died three years ago.

IOC rules on gender eligibility

The advice published by the IOC in 2021 to help give governing bodies support in determining rules around gender eligibility stated that no athlete should be excluded from competing based on an "unverified, alleged or perceived unfair competitive advantage due to their sex variations, physical appearance and/or transgender status."

The IOC document is not legally binding, but it clearly states what it expects from governing bodies responsible for regulating their own sports.

"Athletes should be allowed to compete but unfair advantage needs to be regulated," the IOC document says.

Calculon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:34 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:12 am Had the boxing on in the background.

The commentators "Carini must be mad about something"... Commentator knows why but rather than treat the audience as grown ups they bring up that Carini is emotional and it could be about losing her Dad after Tokyo. The Italian was heard shouting "It is not right" after the final announcement.

Regardless of what one believes about the rights and the wrongs about who is competing in the boxing, the commentator should be truthful. There is controversary because the IOC have taken over running Olympic boxing from the IBA. The IBA had banned Khelif from the world championships due to not meeting the eligibility criteria to compete in the female boxing category. They are believed to have failed gender tests. The IOC apply a different set of rules and therefore two boxers are allowed to complete.

The IBA are incompetent clowns so their test could have been rubbish but those are the facts, and shouldn't be offensive to anyone if a commentator states them rather then talking absolute bollocks about someones upset about their Dad who died three years ago.

Does the IOC even have their own set of rules in place? All i can see is they supply advice, that is very "inclusive", to other sporting bodies

IOC rules on gender eligibility

The advice published by the IOC in 2021 to help give governing bodies support in determining rules around gender eligibility stated that no athlete should be excluded from competing based on an "unverified, alleged or perceived unfair competitive advantage due to their sex variations, physical appearance and/or transgender status."

The IOC document is not legally binding, but it clearly states what it expects from governing bodies responsible for regulating their own sports.

"Athletes should be allowed to compete but unfair advantage needs to be regulated," the IOC document says.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:43 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:34 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:12 am Had the boxing on in the background.

The commentators "Carini must be mad about something"... Commentator knows why but rather than treat the audience as grown ups they bring up that Carini is emotional and it could be about losing her Dad after Tokyo. The Italian was heard shouting "It is not right" after the final announcement.

Regardless of what one believes about the rights and the wrongs about who is competing in the boxing, the commentator should be truthful. There is controversary because the IOC have taken over running Olympic boxing from the IBA. The IBA had banned Khelif from the world championships due to not meeting the eligibility criteria to compete in the female boxing category. They are believed to have failed gender tests. The IOC apply a different set of rules and therefore two boxers are allowed to complete.

The IBA are incompetent clowns so their test could have been rubbish but those are the facts, and shouldn't be offensive to anyone if a commentator states them rather then talking absolute bollocks about someones upset about their Dad who died three years ago.

Does the IOC even have their own set of rules in place? All i can see is they supply advice, that is very "inclusive", to other sporting bodies

IOC rules on gender eligibility

The advice published by the IOC in 2021 to help give governing bodies support in determining rules around gender eligibility stated that no athlete should be excluded from competing based on an "unverified, alleged or perceived unfair competitive advantage due to their sex variations, physical appearance and/or transgender status."

The IOC document is not legally binding, but it clearly states what it expects from governing bodies responsible for regulating their own sports.

"Athletes should be allowed to compete but unfair advantage needs to be regulated," the IOC document says.

Fucking BBC doesn't even mention what the issue is, just that he failed eligibility rules. pathetic.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:08 pm More broadly on this topic, the IOC and other major sporting bodies addressing the topic of intersex athletes is well overdue. They just brushed it under the carpet with Caster Semenya, and they’ll probably do it again here. Despite the fact that it gives them a natural science basis to define who qualifies as a woman in sport.

petej wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:13 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:08 pm More broadly on this topic, the IOC and other major sporting bodies addressing the topic of intersex athletes is well overdue. They just brushed it under the carpet with Caster Semenya, and they’ll probably do it again here. Despite the fact that it gives them a natural science basis to define who qualifies as a woman in sport.

It is really not very hard. They are just being gutless. Mens sport is open category and women's sport is a closed category to those with xx chromosomes. These individuals trans or intersex always appear to opt for women's sport precisely because it is an advantage.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 2:28 pm

petej wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:13 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:08 pm More broadly on this topic, the IOC and other major sporting bodies addressing the topic of intersex athletes is well overdue. They just brushed it under the carpet with Caster Semenya, and they’ll probably do it again here. Despite the fact that it gives them a natural science basis to define who qualifies as a woman in sport.

It is really not very hard. They are just being gutless. Mens sport is open category and women's sport is a closed category to those with xx chromosomes. These individuals trans or intersex always appear to opt for women's sport precisely because it is an advantage.

Which level of sport do you start testing at? Have you ever had your chromosomal make up checked? Played any sport?

There are XX intersex conditions as well, which of these are you including or do you just think those are ok?

And well done on eliding trans and intersex there, precisely the point I was making about the two things being blended into one when they’re often very different circumstances.

Edit, also are you allowing women into men’s gymnastic competitions if you’re just saying men’s competitions are no open? Or diving?

Calculon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:02 pm make testing a requirement for olympic participation.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:29 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:02 pm make testing a requirement for olympic participation.

This

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:33 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:29 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:02 pm make testing a requirement for olympic participation.

This

Isn't an intersex boxer likely to do more damage to an opponent far under Olympic standard?

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:33 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:29 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:02 pm make testing a requirement for olympic participation.

This

Isn't an intersex boxer likely to do more damage to an opponent far under Olympic standard?

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 2:28 pm

petej wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:13 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:08 pm More broadly on this topic, the IOC and other major sporting bodies addressing the topic of intersex athletes is well overdue. They just brushed it under the carpet with Caster Semenya, and they’ll probably do it again here. Despite the fact that it gives them a natural science basis to define who qualifies as a woman in sport.

It is really not very hard. They are just being gutless. Mens sport is open category and women's sport is a closed category to those with xx chromosomes. These individuals trans or intersex always appear to opt for women's sport precisely because it is an advantage.

Which level of sport do you start testing at? Have you ever had your chromosomal make up checked? Played any sport?

There are XX intersex conditions as well, which of these are you including or do you just think those are ok?

And well done on eliding trans and intersex there, precisely the point I was making about the two things being blended into one when they’re often very different circumstances.

Edit, also are you allowing women into men’s gymnastic competitions if you’re just saying men’s competitions are no open? Or diving?

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:38 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:33 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:29 pm

This

Isn't an intersex boxer likely to do more damage to an opponent far under Olympic standard?

Exactly.

The number and variety of conditions involved here automatically precludes simple black and white decisions.

This all goes back to the idea that sex is 100% binary. That’s factually untrue and some people are very uncomfortable with that.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:38 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:33 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:29 pm

This

Isn't an intersex boxer likely to do more damage to an opponent far under Olympic standard?

Exactly.

The number and variety of conditions involved here automatically precludes simple black and white decisions.

This all goes back to the idea that sex is 100% binary. That’s factually untrue and some people are very uncomfortable with that.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 2:28 pm

petej wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:13 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:08 pm More broadly on this topic, the IOC and other major sporting bodies addressing the topic of intersex athletes is well overdue. They just brushed it under the carpet with Caster Semenya, and they’ll probably do it again here. Despite the fact that it gives them a natural science basis to define who qualifies as a woman in sport.

It is really not very hard. They are just being gutless. Mens sport is open category and women's sport is a closed category to those with xx chromosomes. These individuals trans or intersex always appear to opt for women's sport precisely because it is an advantage.

Which level of sport do you start testing at? Have you ever had your chromosomal make up checked? Played any sport?

There are XX intersex conditions as well, which of these are you including or do you just think those are ok?

And well done on eliding trans and intersex there, precisely the point I was making about the two things being blended into one when they’re often very different circumstances.

Edit, also are you allowing women into men’s gymnastic competitions if you’re just saying men’s competitions are no open? Or diving?

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:46 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:38 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:33 pm

Isn't an intersex boxer likely to do more damage to an opponent far under Olympic standard?

Exactly.

The number and variety of conditions involved here automatically precludes simple black and white decisions.

This all goes back to the idea that sex is 100% binary. That’s factually untrue and some people are very uncomfortable with that.

It’s not factually untrue.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 5:11 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:46 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:38 pm

Exactly.

The number and variety of conditions involved here automatically precludes simple black and white decisions.

This all goes back to the idea that sex is 100% binary. That’s factually untrue and some people are very uncomfortable with that.

It’s not factually untrue.

Aye it is.

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:46 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:38 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:33 pm

Isn't an intersex boxer likely to do more damage to an opponent far under Olympic standard?

Exactly.

The number and variety of conditions involved here automatically precludes simple black and white decisions.

This all goes back to the idea that sex is 100% binary. That’s factually untrue and some people are very uncomfortable with that.

It’s not factually untrue.

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:03 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 5:11 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:46 pm

It’s not factually untrue.

Aye it is.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36543364/

Calculon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:26 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:46 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:38 pm

Exactly.

The number and variety of conditions involved here automatically precludes simple black and white decisions.

This all goes back to the idea that sex is 100% binary. That’s factually untrue and some people are very uncomfortable with that.

It’s not factually untrue.

Sex in mammals is not 100% binary but it is overwhelmingly so and the very rare exceptions do not negate the concept of sex as binary, and should also not serve as an excuse to allow intersex athletes to compete in the female category

Calculon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:26 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:46 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:38 pm

Exactly.

The number and variety of conditions involved here automatically precludes simple black and white decisions.

This all goes back to the idea that sex is 100% binary. That’s factually untrue and some people are very uncomfortable with that.

It’s not factually untrue.

Sex in mammals is not 100% binary but it is overwhelmingly so and the very rare exceptions do not negate the concept of sex as binary, and should also not serve as an excuse to allow intersex athletes to compete in the female category

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 7:12 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:26 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:46 pm

It’s not factually untrue.

Sex in mammals is not 100% binary but it is overwhelmingly so and the very rare exceptions do not negate the concept of sex as binary, and should also not serve as an excuse to allow intersex athletes to compete in the female category

This

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:22 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:19 am

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:12 am Had the boxing on in the background.

The commentators "Carini must be mad about something"... Commentator knows why but rather than treat the audience as grown ups they bring up that Carini is emotional and it could be about losing her Dad after Tokyo. The Italian was heard shouting "It is not right" after the final announcement.

Regardless of what one believes about the rights and the wrongs about who is competing in the boxing, the commentator should be truthful. There is controversary because the IOC have taken over running Olympic boxing from the IBA. The IBA had banned Khelif from the world championships due to not meeting the eligibility criteria to compete in the female boxing category. They are believed to have failed gender tests. The IOC apply a different set of rules and therefore two boxers are allowed to complete.

The IBA are incompetent clowns so their test could have been rubbish but those are the facts, and shouldn't be offensive to anyone if a commentator states them rather then talking absolute bollocks about someones upset about their Dad who died three years ago.

From what little is actually stated about this, it sounds as if Khelif has an intersex condition, rather than being a trans athlete.

One of the small percentage of people that contradicts the rather dumb idea that everyone is either a man or a woman, and there’s no other possibility.

Sounds like men and intersex fighters still shouldn't be in the ring battering women.

Calculon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 5:24 am (but presumable not the female athletes that have to compete against non-females.)

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:32 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:30 am

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:27 am
Intersex - 46XY DSD being the common one and likely in this case - still means full male development during puberty. They are male with all the strength advantages of that. Boxing is the sport where this is the most dangerous as punching power is where the difference between males and females is the greatest.

Yeah, I’m not defending their participation here, I’m just highlighting that most coverage of this has been incredibly lazy and as such SM has assumed they’re trans. And as you’ll know, people are very often unaware of it themselves.

Calling the coverage lazy is putting a VERY generous spin on it.

I'd call it deliberately misleading.

Calculon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 5:24 am Nah, that’s a pretty weak statement

Their passports says they’re female and they’ve been boxing as females for a while so what can we do, hey - and besides we have to respect the human rights of these athletes (but presumable not the female athletes that have to compete against non-females.)

and we also can’t change eligibility criteria mid competition (true, they should have realized this shit storm was going to happen well before the Olympics), and the last paragraph is just saying we told the boxing federations to sort it out before the next games otherwise boxing won’t be included (so we are addressing the issue and it won’t happen again)

bok_viking wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:14 am Maybe the best would be that they just do the same as they do with Paralympics sports, have different classes that athletes compete in.
But when it comes to sports that depends on strength, I cannot see how anyone can think it is ok that someone that grew up as a male during their teen years does not have an advantage over those who were born female no matter how long they identify as female afterwards. Even the treatments they undergo will never fully erase the changes muscles underwent during the male puberty time.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:32 am

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:32 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:30 am

Yeah, I’m not defending their participation here, I’m just highlighting that most coverage of this has been incredibly lazy and as such SM has assumed they’re trans. And as you’ll know, people are very often unaware of it themselves.

Calling the coverage lazy is putting a VERY generous spin on it.

I'd call it deliberately misleading.

It goes back to the Caster saga. Is it right that intimate details of her medical condition and body get plastered on media for three world to see?

It's certainly not right that the DAC's of the world get to set the agenda on this.

Probably unpopular slant in this, maybe Carini is soft as wet shite?

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:39 am

bok_viking wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:14 am Maybe the best would be that they just do the same as they do with Paralympics sports, have different classes that athletes compete in.
But when it comes to sports that depends on strength, I cannot see how anyone can think it is ok that someone that grew up as a male during their teen years does not have an advantage over those who were born female no matter how long they identify as female afterwards. Even the treatments they undergo will never fully erase the changes muscles underwent during the male puberty time.

She was born a woman and grew up a woman and identifies as a woman because she is one. This is not a self ID thing. She is not trans. There isn't even any evidence she's intersex.

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:03 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:39 am

bok_viking wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:14 am Maybe the best would be that they just do the same as they do with Paralympics sports, have different classes that athletes compete in.
But when it comes to sports that depends on strength, I cannot see how anyone can think it is ok that someone that grew up as a male during their teen years does not have an advantage over those who were born female no matter how long they identify as female afterwards. Even the treatments they undergo will never fully erase the changes muscles underwent during the male puberty time.

She was born a woman and grew up a woman and identifies as a woman because she is one. This is not a self ID thing. She is not trans. There isn't even any evidence she's intersex.

Do we know that? Or is it just that the evidence isn't in the public domain? Certainly the Italian fighter seemed to think there was something dodgy (she shouted "it's not right") - though she might not be the most objective witness, to be fair.

I wonder if the IOC might have unwittingly left themselves open to legal action here. Pure speculation, but I would imagine that boxers have an understanding (or signed waiver?) that they allow themselves to be assaulted by their opponents (by legal definition), but does that understanding extend to a female being assaulted by someone who is genetically male? If the two boxers in question are indeed 46XY, then it could be argued that the IOC have been negligent in allowing this situation that the IBA has already dealt with. This is not athletics, it's well known that boxing can cause serious trauma, so allowing genetic males to fight females could represent a significant risk that the IOC did not plan for.

And yes, this is viewing gender as 100% binary (I'm sure some will remind me that's not the case), but I'm talking about the potential for legal action. Caster Semenya's case highlights that the courts are more likely to have a definitive view.

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:03 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:39 am

bok_viking wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:14 am Maybe the best would be that they just do the same as they do with Paralympics sports, have different classes that athletes compete in.
But when it comes to sports that depends on strength, I cannot see how anyone can think it is ok that someone that grew up as a male during their teen years does not have an advantage over those who were born female no matter how long they identify as female afterwards. Even the treatments they undergo will never fully erase the changes muscles underwent during the male puberty time.

She was born a woman and grew up a woman and identifies as a woman because she is one. This is not a self ID thing. She is not trans. There isn't even any evidence she's intersex.

Do we know that? Or is it just that the evidence isn't in the public domain? Certainly the Italian fighter seemed to think there was something dodgy (she shouted "it's not right") - though she might not be the most objective witness, to be fair.

I wonder if the IOC might have unwittingly left themselves open to legal action here. Pure speculation, but I would imagine that boxers have an understanding (or signed waiver?) that they allow themselves to be assaulted by their opponents (by legal definition), but does that understanding extend to a female being assaulted by someone who is genetically male? If the two boxers in question are indeed 46XY, then it could be argued that the IOC have been negligent in allowing this situation that the IBA has already dealt with. This is not athletics, it's well known that boxing can cause serious trauma, so allowing genetic males to fight females could represent a significant risk that the IOC did not plan for.

And yes, this is viewing gender as 100% binary (I'm sure some will remind me that's not the case), but I'm talking about the potential for legal action. Caster Semenya's case highlights that the courts are more likely to have a definitive view.

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:40 am

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:32 am

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:32 am
Calling the coverage lazy is putting a VERY generous spin on it.

I'd call it deliberately misleading.

It goes back to the Caster saga. Is it right that intimate details of her medical condition and body get plastered on media for three world to see?

It's certainly not right that the DAC's of the world get to set the agenda on this.

Probably unpopular slant in this, maybe Carini is soft as wet shite?

Unpopular? Maybe. Pretty daft? She's an Olympic boxer who has also won medals at the Worlds, so you can probably answer that yourself.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:38 am
In any other scenario, a boxer who quits at the start of the fight after a regulation punch from an opponent not known for their power would be viewed with incredible suspicion, and yet here we are. Have people seen the "fight"? It's astonishing.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:56 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:38 am
In any other scenario, a boxer who quits at the start of the fight after a regulation punch from an opponent not known for their power would be viewed with incredible suspicion, and yet here we are. Have people seen the "fight"? It's astonishing.

You're not wrong here, JM. I watched it later and the Italian bird quit faster than Paula Radcliff when the going got a little warm. Full Italian WWII-surrender mode.
It wasn't a battering at all.

The other fighter looks rather blokey vs the cuter Italian and the media have gone to town as usual.