NPR

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:10 pm I also love people trying to pretend the SNP is the establishment.

The Establishment that bullies Westminster into toeing their line, apparently.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:16 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:10 pm I also love people trying to pretend the SNP is the establishment.

The Establishment that bullies Westminster into toeing their line, apparently.

With subservient newspaper editors at their beck and call.

By any reasonable definition the same party clique (yes we know the two most important members fell out) running the devolved government in Scotland (and the husband of the FM controlling the party of government) counts as an establishment. Just because an establishment doesnt have all the powers it wants it doesnt stop it being an establishment.

tc27 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:04 pm By any reasonable definition the same party clique (yes we know the two most important members fell out) running the devolved government in Scotland (and the husband of the FM controlling the party of government) counts as an establishment. Just because an establishment doesnt have all the powers it wants it doesnt stop it being an establishment.

We have very different views of what the establishment means.

How can you not be the establishment if you've been governing a country for over 15 years?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:07 pm How can you not be the establishment if you've been governing a country for over 15 years?

Well, I consider the establishment to be a lot wider than government - schools, judiciary, education, media, finance, civil service. The establishment in the UK to me means all of the people running those an the way that it's incredibly nepotistic as the majority of the people in senior roles went to the same schools and universities, are often married to each other and have other links to each other from their background and experience.

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:14 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:07 pm How can you not be the establishment if you've been governing a country for over 15 years?

Well, I consider the establishment to be a lot wider than government - schools, judiciary, education, media, finance, civil service. The establishment in the UK to me means all of the people running those an the way that it's incredibly nepotistic as the majority of the people in senior roles went to the same schools and universities, are often married to each other and have other links to each other from their background and experience.

Is this not the case within the devolved government as well? Certainly exceptionally strong links between the SNP, universities, senior devolved civil servants, the arts and the charity sector. Don't know so much about the Scottish legal system so can't comment on that front. The fact that there is another establishment down south doesn't preclude that (though how plugged into the wider eco system the Tories of 2023 are is very open to debate).

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:24 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:14 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:07 pm How can you not be the establishment if you've been governing a country for over 15 years?

Well, I consider the establishment to be a lot wider than government - schools, judiciary, education, media, finance, civil service. The establishment in the UK to me means all of the people running those an the way that it's incredibly nepotistic as the majority of the people in senior roles went to the same schools and universities, are often married to each other and have other links to each other from their background and experience.

Is this not the case within the devolved government as well? Certainly exceptionally strong links between the SNP, universities, senior devolved civil servants, the arts and the charity sector. Don't know so much about the Scottish legal system so can't comment on that front. The fact that there is another establishment down south doesn't preclude that (though how plugged into the wider eco system the Tories of 2023 are is very open to debate).

There is a huge power imbalance at play here, and the fact that the SNP have been in government in Scotland for a few years does nothing to change that. There have been accusations of secret service surveillance of SNP leaders and activists in the past, there is the curious case of Willie MacRae, there is the very real suppression of the McCrone Report, there is an ongoing campaign of undermining the devolved parliament as an entity and anyone who supports it or works in it, you'd have to be blind to not see it.

That is The Establishment, even the late Queen talked about "goings on in the bushes" (my term) to which they were not privy. The SNP has nothing like that going on, at least not that we know of....

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:45 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:24 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:14 pm

Well, I consider the establishment to be a lot wider than government - schools, judiciary, education, media, finance, civil service. The establishment in the UK to me means all of the people running those an the way that it's incredibly nepotistic as the majority of the people in senior roles went to the same schools and universities, are often married to each other and have other links to each other from their background and experience.

Is this not the case within the devolved government as well? Certainly exceptionally strong links between the SNP, universities, senior devolved civil servants, the arts and the charity sector. Don't know so much about the Scottish legal system so can't comment on that front. The fact that there is another establishment down south doesn't preclude that (though how plugged into the wider eco system the Tories of 2023 are is very open to debate).

There is a huge power imbalance at play here, and the fact that the SNP have been in government in Scotland for a few years does nothing to change that. There have been accusations of secret service surveillance of SNP leaders and activists in the past, there is the curious case of Willie MacRae, there is the very real suppression of the McCrone Report, there is an ongoing campaign of undermining the devolved parliament as an entity and anyone who supports it or works in it, you'd have to be blind to not see it.

That is The Establishment, even the late Queen talked about "goings on in the bushes" (my term) to which they were not privy. The SNP has nothing like that going on, at least not that we know of....

Nobody is disputing the British establishment exists (though I think your definition is getting more towards a murky secret state version than Biffer was), I'm just saying it's pretty obvious there is a Scottish one as well that has major pull in the Scottish media, public sector, arts and education, and the SNP are at the centre of it. The fact that in both a Scottish and British context the establishment of 2023 isn't port soaked old boys doesn't change the fact that it exists.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:54 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:45 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:24 pm

Is this not the case within the devolved government as well? Certainly exceptionally strong links between the SNP, universities, senior devolved civil servants, the arts and the charity sector. Don't know so much about the Scottish legal system so can't comment on that front. The fact that there is another establishment down south doesn't preclude that (though how plugged into the wider eco system the Tories of 2023 are is very open to debate).

There is a huge power imbalance at play here, and the fact that the SNP have been in government in Scotland for a few years does nothing to change that. There have been accusations of secret service surveillance of SNP leaders and activists in the past, there is the curious case of Willie MacRae, there is the very real suppression of the McCrone Report, there is an ongoing campaign of undermining the devolved parliament as an entity and anyone who supports it or works in it, you'd have to be blind to not see it.

That is The Establishment, even the late Queen talked about "goings on in the bushes" (my term) to which they were not privy. The SNP has nothing like that going on, at least not that we know of....

Nobody is disputing the British establishment exists (though I think your definition is getting more towards a murky secret state version than Biffer was), I'm just saying it's pretty obvious there is a Scottish one as well that has major pull in the Scottish media, public sector, arts and education, and the SNP are at the centre of it. The fact that in both a Scottish and British context the establishment of 2023 isn't port soaked old boys doesn't change the fact that it exists.

The media in Scotland is pretty unified in their dislike for the SNP and their opposition to independence.

You'll have to explain to me what you mean by referencing arts and education here as I don't understand the connection to any establishment.

A government that has been in charge will have influence on the public sector, sure, just down to the fact that policy is made in Holyrood, but I'm not sure we're all working on the same definition of The Establishment

A few points


1. My comment was about an establishment within the SNP which I think its fairly uncontroversial? The same clique have being in charge for a long time and have essentially created the modern party. The FM and the CEO of the party are a married couple.

2. However clearly when your in government for 16 years you are an establishment. In the conventional political sense if not some kid of Davick Ick shadowy secret society sense

3. One constant about politics is that everyone thinks the media is biased against them.

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:22 am A few points


1. My comment was about an establishment within the SNP which I think its fairly uncontroversial? The same clique have being in charge for a long time and have essentially created the modern party. The FM and the CEO of the party are a married couple.

2. However clearly when your in government for 16 years you are an establishment. In the conventional political sense if not some kid of Davick Ick shadowy secret society sense

3. One constant about politics is that everyone thinks the media is biased against them.

A couple of questions on your points

1. Was anything I said untrue? If so what?
2. What media outlets, print, online or broadcast in Scotland backed the Yes campaign?

Is Scotland too wee to have its own elite or something? Or are the SNP so ineffective and unpopular that in 15 years of being in government they have not managed to exert any influence on Scottish civil society? That doesn't bode well for the transformative potential of an independent Scotland.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:59 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:22 am A few points


1. My comment was about an establishment within the SNP which I think its fairly uncontroversial? The same clique have being in charge for a long time and have essentially created the modern party. The FM and the CEO of the party are a married couple.

2. However clearly when your in government for 16 years you are an establishment. In the conventional political sense if not some kid of Davick Ick shadowy secret society sense

3. One constant about politics is that everyone thinks the media is biased against them.

A couple of questions on your points

1. Was anything I said untrue? If so what?
2. What media outlets, print, online or broadcast in Scotland backed the Yes campaign?

The media is almost universally pro union or at least anti SNP - absolutely no doubt about that.

However, the SNP have managed to cow them very effectively so that until very recently they rarely got a hard time or were investigated with any real intent.

I think any lack of holding to account is more Dow. To our media being fucking shit. Pro union politicians often get a free ride in interviews, where they're challenged on irrelevant things instead of what actually matters.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 3:21 pm I think any lack of holding to account is more Dow. To our media being fucking shit. Pro union politicians often get a free ride in interviews, where they're challenged on irrelevant things instead of what actually matters.

Yup, that’s fair. Although the mob has definitely shut down a lot of debate and dissent, particularly amongst business

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:59 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:22 am A few points


1. My comment was about an establishment within the SNP which I think its fairly uncontroversial? The same clique have being in charge for a long time and have essentially created the modern party. The FM and the CEO of the party are a married couple.

2. However clearly when your in government for 16 years you are an establishment. In the conventional political sense if not some kid of Davick Ick shadowy secret society sense

3. One constant about politics is that everyone thinks the media is biased against them.

A couple of questions on your points

1. Was anything I said untrue? If so what?
2. What media outlets, print, online or broadcast in Scotland backed the Yes campaign?

TO be honest I am struggling to find stuff to verify - I mean the Queen allegedly saying something? The McCrone report was a memo that was published after a FOI request - doesnt sound like a very good establishment stich up?

As I understand it the broadcast media aren't allowed an editorial line although a hate mob was sent to the BBC after Nick Robinson asked Salmond some awkward questions (two years before Trumpism).

Regarding newspapers - Google is struggling - from this it looks like the front pages of the Scottish papers are fairly neutral: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/187 ... sults-day/

The Glasgow-based Sunday Mail came close to endorsing a yes vote as it criticised Better Together, accusing the "dismal" pro-UK campaign of "baffling complacency" and seeing "only a bleak and terrible blackness rolling over an independent Scotland".

Arguing that yes voters were justified in viewing the referendum as a protest vote against the Westminster government, it declined to tell its readers how to vote but stated: "Yes or no, Scotland is moving on to where we are meant to be. And you know what? We'll be fine."

So far among the Scotland-based titles only the Sunday Herald has explicitly backed a yes vote, in a front-page editorial in May. It followed that on the final weekend of campaigning with a special supplement illustrated with 1,000 selfies taken by readers, urging people to vote yes with the words "now is the time … you are the generation."

Its closest rival, the Edinburgh-based Scotland on Sunday (SoS) took the opposite stance, arguing that the UK parties' pledge of greater powers for Holyrood were attractive and meaningful. Following the no stance taken last week by its stablemate The Scotsman, SoS said Scotland's failings could not be blamed on others.

I think any lack of holding to account is more Dow. To our media being fucking shit. Pro union politicians often get a free ride in interviews, where they're challenged on irrelevant things instead of what actually matters.

Pro Union politicians in Scotland are in opposition. The Nationalists are in government and have being for 16 years - they are going to get asked harder questions by the press because they have the power even if you really think they have a record beyond that is reproach.

tc27 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:04 pm
TO be honest I am struggling to find stuff to verify - I mean the Queen allegedly saying something?

That remark from me was to establish the fact that there is a secret service, or other nefarious powers at work in the UK and no amount of rolling eye emojis and comparisons to David Ike's lizard people will change that, the Queen would never be quoted first hand with something like that, it came from Paul Burrell who said that the Queen had told him he was in danger

In his first interview since being acquitted of stealing Diana's personal treasures, Mr Burrell said that the Queen had urged him to be vigilant. "There are powers at work in this country about which we have no knowledge," he said she had told him.

It was the Queen's intervention, recollecting that she had spoken to him, which forced the trial's collapse last week. Mr Burrell had told her of his intention to hold some of Diana's papers for safekeeping.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/nov ... .monarchy1

The McCrone report was a memo that was published after a FOI request - doesnt sound like a very good establishment stich up?

Dennis Healy on the subject, "I think we did underplay the value of the oil to the country because of the threat of [Scottish] nationalism... I think they [Westminster politicians] are concerned about Scotland taking the oil, I think they are worried stiff about it."

The document, which was classified as "Secret", was released under FOI, yes, it was only a few months after the full FOI legislation came into being, some five years after the Act has passed through the Houses of Parliament, more than forty years after the report was written.

Another question on this, suppose for a second that rather than, as quoted in Wiki

The document gave a favourable projection for the economy of an independent Scotland with a "chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe". It also noted that the Common Market or EEC meant that Scotland could pivot away from the rest of UK (if required) for trade.

Suppose for a second the report had said that there was around ten years worth of oil and gas and it would barely be worth extracting, do you think that would have been published?





I'll not bother with the MAGA comparison, I can't be arsed.

tc27 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:04 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:59 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:22 am A few points


1. My comment was about an establishment within the SNP which I think its fairly uncontroversial? The same clique have being in charge for a long time and have essentially created the modern party. The FM and the CEO of the party are a married couple.

2. However clearly when your in government for 16 years you are an establishment. In the conventional political sense if not some kid of Davick Ick shadowy secret society sense

3. One constant about politics is that everyone thinks the media is biased against them.

A couple of questions on your points

1. Was anything I said untrue? If so what?
2. What media outlets, print, online or broadcast in Scotland backed the Yes campaign?

TO be honest I am struggling to find stuff to verify - I mean the Queen allegedly saying something? The McCrone report was a memo that was published after a FOI request - doesnt sound like a very good establishment stich up?

As I understand it the broadcast media aren't allowed an editorial line although a hate mob was sent to the BBC after Nick Robinson asked Salmond some awkward questions (two years before Trumpism).

Regarding newspapers - Google is struggling - from this it looks like the front pages of the Scottish papers are fairly neutral: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/187 ... sults-day/

The Glasgow-based Sunday Mail came close to endorsing a yes vote as it criticised Better Together, accusing the "dismal" pro-UK campaign of "baffling complacency" and seeing "only a bleak and terrible blackness rolling over an independent Scotland".

Arguing that yes voters were justified in viewing the referendum as a protest vote against the Westminster government, it declined to tell its readers how to vote but stated: "Yes or no, Scotland is moving on to where we are meant to be. And you know what? We'll be fine."

So far among the Scotland-based titles only the Sunday Herald has explicitly backed a yes vote, in a front-page editorial in May. It followed that on the final weekend of campaigning with a special supplement illustrated with 1,000 selfies taken by readers, urging people to vote yes with the words "now is the time … you are the generation."

Its closest rival, the Edinburgh-based Scotland on Sunday (SoS) took the opposite stance, arguing that the UK parties' pledge of greater powers for Holyrood were attractive and meaningful. Following the no stance taken last week by its stablemate The Scotsman, SoS said Scotland's failings could not be blamed on others.

I think any lack of holding to account is more Dow. To our media being fucking shit. Pro union politicians often get a free ride in interviews, where they're challenged on irrelevant things instead of what actually matters.

Pro Union politicians in Scotland are in opposition. The Nationalists are in government and have being for 16 years - they are going to get asked harder questions by the press because they have the power even if you really think they have a record beyond that is reproach.

To be so poorly informed about the McCrone report to just say 'looks like it's available' when it was restricted for forty years tells us a lot about how you look at the debate.

Bloody hell!! This sounded fun?

At Tuesday’s first televised debate, after five fairly bland party hustings, the message the three prospective first ministers screamed loud and clear at Scotland was: “We are a party at war with ourselves.”
Those viewers more familiar with the disciplined, “family hold back” approach to public disagreement within the SNP would have been forgiven for adjusting their television sets as the often ferocious STV debate progressed.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ ... ed-debate

One for the history buffs, The Declaration of Arbroath is going on display at the Chambers St museum in the summer


https://www.nms.ac.uk/exhibitions-event ... -arbroath/

Anyone voted today..or if you could how would you have voted?

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:23 pm Anyone voted today..or if you could how would you have voted?

Voted Forbes . In hope more than expectation

Dogbert wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:00 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:23 pm Anyone voted today..or if you could how would you have voted?

Voted Forbes . In hope more than expectation

Forbes in the most convincing.

Think she's got a great chance with the second preference votes.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:23 pm Anyone voted today..or if you could how would you have voted?

Can’t vote, you’ll be surprised to learn, but I hope it’s Forbes, for good reasons.

Just watched the leadership debate on BBC. Jesus Christ.

Forbes is so far ahead of the other two it’s excruciating.

I’d never heard Regan before, how on Earth has she become an MSP??!! A 6th form debating team wouldn’t have her.

Yousaf just talks garbage and contradicts himself constantly, nothing serious about him at all. I can’t even begin to see why he is the favourite amongst fellow SNP MSP’s, he will so obviously deliver nothing close to a majority. There just must be something else going on

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:05 pm Just watched the leadership debate on BBC. Jesus Christ.

Forbes is so far ahead of the other two it’s excruciating.

I’d never heard Regan before, how on Earth has she become an MSP??!! A 6th form debating team wouldn’t have her.

Yousaf just talks garbage and contradicts himself constantly, nothing serious about him at all. I can’t even begin to see why he is the favourite amongst fellow SNP MSP’s, he will so obviously deliver nothing close to a majority. There just must be something else going on

Am I mistaken in recalling that the SNP wanted a second vote on the Brexit deal so it was funny to hear them all say they wouldn't hold one on any Independence deal.

On second thoughts, as I have said before, none of this is funny.

Bloody hell.

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:05 pm Just watched the leadership debate on BBC. Jesus Christ.

Forbes is so far ahead of the other two it’s excruciating.

I’d never heard Regan before, how on Earth has she become an MSP??!! A 6th form debating team wouldn’t have her.

Yousaf just talks garbage and contradicts himself constantly, nothing serious about him at all. I can’t even begin to see why he is the favourite amongst fellow SNP MSP’s, he will so obviously deliver nothing close to a majority. There just must be something else going on

My SNP friends on Facebook are outraged about the possibility of the 'bigot' Forbes winning.

tc27 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:41 pm

Bloody hell.

We are a banana republic in all but name until the get Sturgeon and Murrell out of the picture.

robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:21 am

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:05 pm Just watched the leadership debate on BBC. Jesus Christ.

Forbes is so far ahead of the other two it’s excruciating.

I’d never heard Regan before, how on Earth has she become an MSP??!! A 6th form debating team wouldn’t have her.

Yousaf just talks garbage and contradicts himself constantly, nothing serious about him at all. I can’t even begin to see why he is the favourite amongst fellow SNP MSP’s, he will so obviously deliver nothing close to a majority. There just must be something else going on

My SNP friends on Facebook are outraged about the possibility of the 'bigot' Forbes winning.

But secretly voting for her.

The SNP leadership (establishment if you will) really did not want to admit it has lost 30,000 members.

The longer this goes on the more you wonder what the fuck is actually going on within the SNP. Angus Robertson or even Sweeney could have had this on a plate but walked away. Sturgeons resignation still makes no sense...but she's desperate to get Humza in place.

I am not given to conspiracy theories but would not be surprised if something really bad is waiting to emerge.

tc27 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:02 pm The SNP leadership (establishment if you will) really did not want to admit it has lost 30,000 members.

Murray Foote has now resigned saying he was given false information from HQ.

I have to say, I was expecting a degree of chaos but this is incredible. Sturgeon’s legacy is in absolute ruins

Murrell gone.

The whole rotten edifice is now collapsing. It really is incredible..even London based journalists starting to pick up this now

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:04 am

The longer this goes on the more you wonder what the fuck is actually going on within the SNP. Angus Robertson or even Sweeney could have had this on a plate but walked away. Sturgeons resignation still makes no sense...but she's desperate to get Humza in place.

I am not given to conspiracy theories but would not be surprised if something really bad is waiting to emerge.

Is Humza too ambitious and thick to realise he is maybe being set up as a patsy.

This is strangely quiet considering the absolute shitshow that is going on. Has Humza come up with a new number 1 priority yet today.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:52 pm This is strangely quiet considering the absolute shitshow that is going on. Has Humza come up with a new number 1 priority yet today.

It’s fucking appalling, no wonder they are keeping quiet

Genuine question, would any of our SNP supporting friends on here like to offer an opinion from that point of view?

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:04 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:52 pm This is strangely quiet considering the absolute shitshow that is going on. Has Humza come up with a new number 1 priority yet today.

It’s fucking appalling, no wonder they are keeping quiet

Genuine question, would any of our SNP supporting friends on here like to offer an opinion from that point of view?

One of my close mates, who is probably the only independence supporting one, is not going to vote. It will be interesting to see if many follow his lead and what the turnout will be.