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Jamie George and Luke Cowan-Dickie were always better, regardless of injuries; Hartley was captain and a proper leader. Taylor was a fine player and wouldn't have let England down.
And then a bunch more, although by that point he was well away from the thoughts of national set up.
Nah, Cowan Dickie earlier on was nowhere near reliable enough in the lineout. But it didn't take him too long to sort that out enough. Taylor got into the saxons a few times I believe, but just kept picking up injuries so could never string together enough to really make a claim for a spot, let alone have a proper run at it.
It seems to me that, for a good while, the players have accepted whatever game plan Eddie puts forward. In that kind of environment, it's easier to do what he says and keep your head down. Eddie has a sharp tongue and he's not afraid to use it. One minute he'll be playing cricket with the guys, then the next he's like a scary headmaster. Everyone has heard the scare stories and you don't want to get on the wrong side of him. I challenged Eddie once and he blew up. Before the 2019 Japan World Cup camp, he went around all the clubs to do one-on-ones with players. During our meeting, he said: 'You're a defensive full-back and I need to work out whether we will take a defensive full-back to the World Cup.'
I'd had one of my best seasons for Quins with really good attacking stats, but Eddie had pigeon-holed me as a defensive full-back. At the end of this meeting, he asked if I had anything I wanted to say. I challenged his comments that I was just a defensive full-back, saying I thought I had been adding value to the attack, with examples and stats from my season, before saying I would take away all of his points and that I would do everything I could to get into the World Cup squad. He did not like that I had contested what he said and went mad. He shouted: 'Well you lost the f****** ball in contact on Saturday, didn't you? That's f****** not good enough. You're not f****** doing everything you can.' Danny Care and Alex Goode both challenged him a couple of years ago and neither of them has played for England since.
Lock/Backrow. 19 years old out of the Tigers Development squad. Good potential from what I've seen this season but not a serious option yet. Would have preferred Willis junior or even Will EvansHal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:04 pm The injury replacement for Jack Willis is George Martin, of Leicester.
I can honestly say I have no idea who he is. At all.
As a member of the Leicester Tigers Under-18 squad that went through the 2017/18 and 2018/19 seasons with an unbeaten record, second-rower George Martin enjoyed a memorable start to his club career.
Born in Nottingham and with a family home in Loughborough, George was a student at Loughborough Grammar and then Melton Brooksby College as he made his way through the Tigers academy.
He was called up to the England Under-18 squad in 2017/18 and then captained the squad in 2018/19 before making his senior club debut in a cup game at Worcester which kicked off the 2019/20 season.
After the resumption of the Covid-hit campaign, he made a big impression during two games in Premiership company before a knee injury ended his season.
Banter selection so Eddie can lecture the journo's about what a clever coach he is.Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:04 pm The injury replacement for Jack Willis is George Martin, of Leicester.
I can honestly say I have no idea who he is. At all.
Strikes me as a choice to hold the tackle bags.SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:22 pmLock/Backrow. 19 years old out of the Tigers Development squad. Good potential from what I've seen this season but not a serious option yet. Would have preferred Willis junior or even Will EvansHal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:04 pm The injury replacement for Jack Willis is George Martin, of Leicester.
I can honestly say I have no idea who he is. At all.As a member of the Leicester Tigers Under-18 squad that went through the 2017/18 and 2018/19 seasons with an unbeaten record, second-rower George Martin enjoyed a memorable start to his club career.
Born in Nottingham and with a family home in Loughborough, George was a student at Loughborough Grammar and then Melton Brooksby College as he made his way through the Tigers academy.
He was called up to the England Under-18 squad in 2017/18 and then captained the squad in 2018/19 before making his senior club debut in a cup game at Worcester which kicked off the 2019/20 season.
After the resumption of the Covid-hit campaign, he made a big impression during two games in Premiership company before a knee injury ended his season.
“I feel like I’m 35,” laughs 24-year-old Will Evans, as he enters the Zoom meeting with a spectacular shiner around his left eye.
“It doesn’t really hurt because my shoulder feels worse.”
Three days after the thunderous scrap with Leicester Tigers and their pack of monsters, the legacy of battle remains brutally evident.
Evans is a juvenile in rugby terms, but as one of England’s premier forwards and most effective jackalers, he knows his body will take an almighty pummelling. It has forced the Harlequins flanker to change how he navigates the seething waters of the breakdown. And after such profoundly distressing tales of former players in early middle-age suffering grave neurological decline, he thinks about what may await him in the years ahead.
“I don’t care about my shoulders or my knees,” Evans tells RugbyPass. “It’s more: am I going to be a vegetable by the time I’m 50?
“There’s a great amount of data; we are wearing chips in our gumshields that monitor G-force, so we are getting looked after the best we possibly could be in the whole history of rugby. I have to put some faith in the people behind the scenes, but I do worry sometimes what I’m going to be like when I’m slightly older.
“If you’re making 20 tackles a weekend, it can’t be good for, firstly, your head, and the rest of your body.”
To Evans, none of this outweighs his love for the game. The Clamp, as he is known by some of the Quins boys, has won more turnovers than anybody else in the eight rounds of Premiership rugby to date. He is magnificent over ball, a scythe in defence and beginning to flex his attacking muscles in a team that looks unburdened these past few weeks.
Evans is fascinating company on the sport, lucid and considered on some of its most vexing issues. He speaks about the sheer bulk of today’s players and how he felt playing speedbump to Tomas Lavanini, one of the largest mammals he has ever encountered, on Saturday; the heinous misfortune of Jack Willis, the league’s ultimate jackal; the price he may pay for years of toil in rugby’s most fraught position; and the changes the sport must enforce to attract new viewers and captivate those it already has.
“Players have to become more skilful,” he says. “You see tries from the 1980s and 90s where locks are off-loading. You just don’t see that much anymore because the scrum-half passes you the ball and you carry it, purely because people are so big now that it’s horrible to defend against.
“It’s very painful when someone weighing 130kg runs as hard as they can at someone else. At the moment it suits you carrying ball at 130kg and then box-kicking and hopefully winning it back 30m further down the pitch. The laws will have to facilitate any change in size and skill level of the players.
“It’s just a toss-up between: do fans want a fast, flowing game or the animal inside us? Do they want us smashing each other and physicality being through the roof? You can’t have both to the max, you can have a certain level of each one and it’s about finding the right balance, in my opinion.”
When it comes to the desperate case of Willis, Evans draws on his own transformative experience. Playing for Leicester Tigers four years ago, he was trapped in a similarly perilous spot, and while his ankle was not as severely damaged as Willis’ knee, he resolved to drastically alter the way he pilfers ball.
Evans reckons the croc-roll that did for Willis must be outlawed – or at least hugely adapted and regulated. He can live with the mighty collisions and cop being “absolutely demolished” so long as the clean-out is a fair one.
“Us jackalers have to firstly accept that we’re going to be on the end of massive collisions, probably higher than anything else you get in the game, and then adjust our own technique to stop us getting injured,” Evans says.
“Jack Willis had an amazing year last season, the records he got will probably never be broken ever – 45 turnovers. However, the jackal position where he goes so wide is quite compromising to his joints – his knees and his ankles.
“I was out for about eight weeks with my injury, so it wasn’t horrendous, but I was like, I can’t let this happen again if I want to be playing for a long time. I moved my legs narrower so that I could prolong my career, basically.
“You can rearrange your feet if you’re narrower and someone is rolling you, you can maybe take a step to the right or left. Whereas if you’re wide, that’s you done. Your feet are in the ground and there is no way you can readjust them. Or you can just roll out and take it and think, right, I might miss out on three jackals a year, but I’m going to make so many more because I’m not injured.”
The change in approach has, emphatically, worked. Evans is blooming now, in his second year at The Stoop, although he does not feel a massively improved player than the young flanker emerging at Tigers. Quins have simply given him the elixir of opportunity.
“I tore my hair out a bit at Leicester,” he says. “I didn’t know what else I could do. And I got a lot of stick for being injured a lot, but if you look at my actual record in my last season where I only played about 10 games, I was available to play 85 per cent of the time and never really got a look-in.
“This year I’ve been able to play more and try different stuff knowing that if I didn’t have my best game, I’d at least be on the bench again. Trying new stuff and just having a consistent run has really helped me.”
That said, life at Quins has brought its own maddening angst, the wild inconsistencies in performances and results and the premature exit of the coach who signed him. Paul Gustard is widely regarded as a defensive genius, but in aiming to instil that ferocity, perhaps detracted from his team’s obvious swagger.
Since Gustard’s departure last month, Quins have won all three of their matches, battering the Tigers, putting Bath away at The Rec, and shellacking Wasps with a club-record 49-point haul on the road.
“It’s been so frustrating the past couple of years,” Evans says. “We’d have a really good win and the next performance we wouldn’t come out of the blocks. Knowing we had such good players who could change a game like that, you’d come off the pitch scratching your head going, ‘How… I don’t really understand why we’re in this predicament.’
“What you’ve seen over the last three games is the amount if possession we’ve had has been more than in previous games. We’d be having probably 40% of ball on average and as amazing a defence coach as Guzzy is, at some stage, if you give teams that much ball, they’re going to break you down. But now we’re getting above 50%, giving teams less time to attack us.
“And secondly I think our maul defence really let us down at the start of the year. But we’ve managed to turn a corner on that and come up with a system so that when teams kick to the corner, they’re not going over without having five or six goes at it.
“We focused on Quins throwing the ball around, having elaborate players making elaborate plays. We’ve coached it the past three games, really concentrated on our attack and you’re seeing the fruits of it now. We’ve got some world-class people who are incredible at throwing the ball around and speed of ball has improved a lot, not necessarily being in really good shape but just playing the ball away even though we’re not quite ready, to get defences on the back foot.”
Willis is out, Sam Underhill is out, and Evans is the form fetcher in the Premiership playing for a side unshackled. He was a luminary of England’s Under-20 squad, winning the 2016 Junior World Championship final and being named in the competition dream team. Eddie Jones included him in his elite player squad later that year.
Jones has not been in touch since Willis went down and on Thursday, called up Leicester’s 19-year-old tyro, George Martin, and in truth, Evans tries manfully not to think about the prospect of the phone ringing. In his younger days, he would saddle himself with the yoke of Test rugby to such an extent that his enthusiasm for the sport soured. It did not so much affect his play as shred his mental health.
“I actually really don’t like talking about [playing for England] purely because when I was younger, I thought about it so much that it made me miserable, really unhappy, and made me fall out of love with the game,” he says. “I put far too much pressure on myself.
“When I was coming through, England didn’t really have a seven. They were predominantly playing James Haskell and Chris Robshaw. Underhill was in Wales, Tom Curry was younger than me. Seeing other lads come through who were younger than me going on to play for England just made me really depressed.
“I’ve only just got over it really, the fact that maybe it’ll never happen. It was around the age of 23 that I was like, just enjoy playing rugby with your mates, and what’s the worst that can happen. Now, I just love playing for Harlequins and putting in good performances with my mates. I’ve put that to bed.”
The game is ruthless in so many ways. Evans bears a little trepidation over what rugby has become, but he has learned to master his trade. Even if it means a few more black eyes.
I have no doubt a lot of this happened, but the 'I challenged his comments' leaves a lot of scope as to how the conversation went downhill. Much like how when a 1 star trip advisor review slates the customer service, you don't automatically blame the waiter.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:14 pm Found a transcript of Brown's Daily Heil column on reddit, this was kind of interesting
It seems to me that, for a good while, the players have accepted whatever game plan Eddie puts forward. In that kind of environment, it's easier to do what he says and keep your head down. Eddie has a sharp tongue and he's not afraid to use it. One minute he'll be playing cricket with the guys, then the next he's like a scary headmaster. Everyone has heard the scare stories and you don't want to get on the wrong side of him. I challenged Eddie once and he blew up. Before the 2019 Japan World Cup camp, he went around all the clubs to do one-on-ones with players. During our meeting, he said: 'You're a defensive full-back and I need to work out whether we will take a defensive full-back to the World Cup.'
I'd had one of my best seasons for Quins with really good attacking stats, but Eddie had pigeon-holed me as a defensive full-back. At the end of this meeting, he asked if I had anything I wanted to say. I challenged his comments that I was just a defensive full-back, saying I thought I had been adding value to the attack, with examples and stats from my season, before saying I would take away all of his points and that I would do everything I could to get into the World Cup squad. He did not like that I had contested what he said and went mad. He shouted: 'Well you lost the f****** ball in contact on Saturday, didn't you? That's f****** not good enough. You're not f****** doing everything you can.' Danny Care and Alex Goode both challenged him a couple of years ago and neither of them has played for England since.
Oh yeah, "What the fuck are you talking about you Aussie dwarf?!" will register very differently to "Eddie, could we do this instead?" and this is just the bare bones of one side of the story.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:25 amI have no doubt a lot of this happened, but the 'I challenged his comments' leaves a lot of scope as to how the conversation went downhill. Much like how when a 1 star trip advisor review slates the customer service, you don't automatically blame the waiter.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:14 pm Found a transcript of Brown's Daily Heil column on reddit, this was kind of interesting
It seems to me that, for a good while, the players have accepted whatever game plan Eddie puts forward. In that kind of environment, it's easier to do what he says and keep your head down. Eddie has a sharp tongue and he's not afraid to use it. One minute he'll be playing cricket with the guys, then the next he's like a scary headmaster. Everyone has heard the scare stories and you don't want to get on the wrong side of him. I challenged Eddie once and he blew up. Before the 2019 Japan World Cup camp, he went around all the clubs to do one-on-ones with players. During our meeting, he said: 'You're a defensive full-back and I need to work out whether we will take a defensive full-back to the World Cup.'
I'd had one of my best seasons for Quins with really good attacking stats, but Eddie had pigeon-holed me as a defensive full-back. At the end of this meeting, he asked if I had anything I wanted to say. I challenged his comments that I was just a defensive full-back, saying I thought I had been adding value to the attack, with examples and stats from my season, before saying I would take away all of his points and that I would do everything I could to get into the World Cup squad. He did not like that I had contested what he said and went mad. He shouted: 'Well you lost the f****** ball in contact on Saturday, didn't you? That's f****** not good enough. You're not f****** doing everything you can.' Danny Care and Alex Goode both challenged him a couple of years ago and neither of them has played for England since.
Shame about Freeman's injury, he looked like he could add something a bit different to that backline.Saint wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:16 pm Saints team to face Exeter:
15 Ahsee Tuala
14 Matt Proctor
13 Rory Hutchinson
12 Piers Francis
11 Ollie Sleightholme
10 George Furbank
9 Alex Mitchell
1 Alex Waller (co-capt)
2 Sam Matavesi
3 Ehren Painter
4 David Ribbans
5 Api Ratuniyarawa
6 Nick Isiekwe
7 Lewis Ludlam (co-capt)
8 Shaun Adendorff
Replacements:
16 Reece Marshall
17 Nick Auterac
18 Paul Hill
19 Alex Coles
20 Tom Wood
21 Henry Taylor
22 Harry Mallinder
23 Taqele Naiyaravoro
Not available due to injury:
Owen Franks (foot), Tommy Freeman (ankle), Teimana Harrison (hand), Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (achilles), Emmanuel Iyogun (ankle), and Kayde Sylvester (achilles).
Eddie has; & always had; a chip on his shoulder, that you can see from Space. I think a lot of it has to do with his coping mechanism, for dealing with the abuse he copped, growing up as a mixed race kid.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:25 amI have no doubt a lot of this happened, but the 'I challenged his comments' leaves a lot of scope as to how the conversation went downhill. Much like how when a 1 star trip advisor review slates the customer service, you don't automatically blame the waiter.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:14 pm Found a transcript of Brown's Daily Heil column on reddit, this was kind of interesting
It seems to me that, for a good while, the players have accepted whatever game plan Eddie puts forward. In that kind of environment, it's easier to do what he says and keep your head down. Eddie has a sharp tongue and he's not afraid to use it. One minute he'll be playing cricket with the guys, then the next he's like a scary headmaster. Everyone has heard the scare stories and you don't want to get on the wrong side of him. I challenged Eddie once and he blew up. Before the 2019 Japan World Cup camp, he went around all the clubs to do one-on-ones with players. During our meeting, he said: 'You're a defensive full-back and I need to work out whether we will take a defensive full-back to the World Cup.'
I'd had one of my best seasons for Quins with really good attacking stats, but Eddie had pigeon-holed me as a defensive full-back. At the end of this meeting, he asked if I had anything I wanted to say. I challenged his comments that I was just a defensive full-back, saying I thought I had been adding value to the attack, with examples and stats from my season, before saying I would take away all of his points and that I would do everything I could to get into the World Cup squad. He did not like that I had contested what he said and went mad. He shouted: 'Well you lost the f****** ball in contact on Saturday, didn't you? That's f****** not good enough. You're not f****** doing everything you can.' Danny Care and Alex Goode both challenged him a couple of years ago and neither of them has played for England since.
I can buy most of that, but Mike Brown isn’t exactly uncomplicated either, which is my point.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:26 pmEddie has; & always had; a chip on his shoulder, that you can see from Space. I think a lot of it has to do with his coping mechanism, for dealing with the abuse he copped, growing up as a mixed race kid.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:25 amI have no doubt a lot of this happened, but the 'I challenged his comments' leaves a lot of scope as to how the conversation went downhill. Much like how when a 1 star trip advisor review slates the customer service, you don't automatically blame the waiter.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:14 pm Found a transcript of Brown's Daily Heil column on reddit, this was kind of interesting
He strikes me as being someone who always takes challenges to his authority, as some kind of criticism of himself; & this is why he sticks with decisions that have been challenged; even when the criticism is correct; & often doubles down (e. g. 150 Cap Ben Youngs).
You'd need to be a hostage negotiator to talk yourself back into his good graces, after he's decided your a trouble maker.
Fair pointPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:13 amI can buy most of that, but Mike Brown isn’t exactly uncomplicated either, which is my point.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:26 pmEddie has; & always had; a chip on his shoulder, that you can see from Space. I think a lot of it has to do with his coping mechanism, for dealing with the abuse he copped, growing up as a mixed race kid.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:25 am
I have no doubt a lot of this happened, but the 'I challenged his comments' leaves a lot of scope as to how the conversation went downhill. Much like how when a 1 star trip advisor review slates the customer service, you don't automatically blame the waiter.
He strikes me as being someone who always takes challenges to his authority, as some kind of criticism of himself; & this is why he sticks with decisions that have been challenged; even when the criticism is correct; & often doubles down (e. g. 150 Cap Ben Youngs).
You'd need to be a hostage negotiator to talk yourself back into his good graces, after he's decided your a trouble maker.
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:01 pm Eddie does love him a lock than plays averagely at 6.
I suppose better him holding tackle bags than Dombrandt or Simmonds watching as Lawes slowly bends over the breakdown like a giraffe lowering itself to drink.
I'm now picturing Lawes trotting with ball in hand like...