NPR

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:00 pm So. Where does Eddie go from here? I assume we're too cheap to fire him.

He'll do anything he damn well likes. He literally answers to nobody.

These are the executive members of the RFU;

Chief Executive Officer: Bill Sweeney
Legal and Governance Director: Angus Bujalski
Chief Financial & Operations Officer: Sue Day
Rugby Development Director: Steve Grainger
Chief Commercial Officer: Simon Massie-Taylor
Director of Professional Rugby: Conor O'Shea

None of them manage Jones and Sweeney doesn't know a ruck from a maul.

Yeah it’s the officers of the RFU to blame for those tries being given.

As I say, you can’t read anything into that meme of a game

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:08 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:00 pm So. Where does Eddie go from here? I assume we're too cheap to fire him.

He'll do anything he damn well likes. He literally answers to nobody.

These are the executive members of the RFU;

Chief Executive Officer: Bill Sweeney
Legal and Governance Director: Angus Bujalski
Chief Financial & Operations Officer: Sue Day
Rugby Development Director: Steve Grainger
Chief Commercial Officer: Simon Massie-Taylor
Director of Professional Rugby: Conor O'Shea

None of them manage Jones and Sweeney doesn't know a ruck from a maul.

I assume Eddie actually wants to win matches again though. He's too arrogant to suffer losing for long.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:11 pm Yeah it’s the officers of the RFU to blame for those tries being given.

As I say, you can’t read anything into that meme of a game

Oh come on, the ref was abysmal today but England under Jones are dreadful. He's rugby's Mourinho. He's finished.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:13 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:08 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:00 pm So. Where does Eddie go from here? I assume we're too cheap to fire him.

He'll do anything he damn well likes. He literally answers to nobody.

These are the executive members of the RFU;

Chief Executive Officer: Bill Sweeney
Legal and Governance Director: Angus Bujalski
Chief Financial & Operations Officer: Sue Day
Rugby Development Director: Steve Grainger
Chief Commercial Officer: Simon Massie-Taylor
Director of Professional Rugby: Conor O'Shea

None of them manage Jones and Sweeney doesn't know a ruck from a maul.

I assume Eddie actually wants to win matches again though. He's too arrogant to suffer losing for long.

I want to win the lottery.

He's too arrogant to admit he might be the problem.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:13 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:11 pm Yeah it’s the officers of the RFU to blame for those tries being given.

As I say, you can’t read anything into that meme of a game

Oh come on, the ref was abysmal today but England under Jones are dreadful. He's rugby's Mourinho. He's finished.

I hate how we made the World Cup final and have beaten Australia 5 times in a row

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:21 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:13 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:11 pm Yeah it’s the officers of the RFU to blame for those tries being given.

As I say, you can’t read anything into that meme of a game

Oh come on, the ref was abysmal today but England under Jones are dreadful. He's rugby's Mourinho. He's finished.

I hate how we made the World Cup final and have beaten Australia 5 times in a row

I hate how it looks like Italy will be the only side we beat this 6N - and I hate how turgid our play is and how appalling our discipline is. We're almost unwatchable

Ovals wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:30 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:21 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:13 pm


Oh come on, the ref was abysmal today but England under Jones are dreadful. He's rugby's Mourinho. He's finished.

I hate how we made the World Cup final and have beaten Australia 5 times in a row

I hate how it looks like Italy will be the only side we beat this 6N - and I hate how turgid our play is and how appalling our discipline is. We're almost unwatchable

Fair enough. Just don’t pretend there’s an easy alternative where everything is great

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:35 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:30 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:21 pm

I hate how we made the World Cup final and have beaten Australia 5 times in a row

I hate how it looks like Italy will be the only side we beat this 6N - and I hate how turgid our play is and how appalling our discipline is. We're almost unwatchable

Fair enough. Just don’t pretend there’s an easy alternative where everything is great

England have questions to answer, no doubt. Keeping Eddie Jones answers none of them though.

This is surely obvious now, even to the most blinkered optimist?

I was hoping we might have a conversation as to how Eddie will react to a run of defeats. It's not like he hasn't done it before.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:44 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:35 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:30 pm

I hate how it looks like Italy will be the only side we beat this 6N - and I hate how turgid our play is and how appalling our discipline is. We're almost unwatchable

Fair enough. Just don’t pretend there’s an easy alternative where everything is great

England have questions to answer, no doubt. Keeping Eddie Jones answers none of them though.

This is surely obvious now, even to the most blinkered optimist?

We can all pretend like England were a great side before he took over if you like? Or we can pretend beating Australian means nothing anymore?

I was happy to see that we played more with ball in hand. While we looked fairly rusty at doing so, the signs were there that we still have players capable of it if given the freedom to do so. My fear is that this will reinforce Eddie's apparent notion that we can't be trusted to do more than kick. At the moment we either don't have the cattle or the cattle are too out of form to play the physically dominant way he wants us to, so he needs to work on something else.

Itoje needs dropping, I've said this before, but it really has to happen. Yes he does a lot and can be our best player, but the number of penalties he's giving away individually at the moment is catastrophic. The territory, possession and points they're costing us put his ledger in the red given how much we've been struggling for those things. What better message to the other purveyors of dull disciplinary mistakes than Itoje is droppable?

Conceding that many points to Wales, officiating aside, is a fucking disgrace. That we've been party to such an average team claiming the triple crown is shameful.

There'll be no getting rid of Eddie. It'd be too expensive and there aren't really any alternatives around for hire. Which means strapping in for more of the same I fear. Getting us out of this trough will require sacrificing some of the sacred cows and trying something new, which he hasn't thus far shown the appetite for.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:21 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:13 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:11 pm Yeah it’s the officers of the RFU to blame for those tries being given.

As I say, you can’t read anything into that meme of a game

Oh come on, the ref was abysmal today but England under Jones are dreadful. He's rugby's Mourinho. He's finished.

I hate how we made the World Cup final and have beaten Australia 5 times in a row

It's 7. It'll be interesting to see if they're still our bunnies without the Cheika handicap. They regressed to being a truly awful side under him and frankly beating them became somewhat meaningless as a measure of prowess or progress. I'm on record as thinking New Zeland and South Africa were the only two decent sides we played at the world cup, so that campaign doesn't impress me much even though the performance against the All Blacks is this team's high water mark.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:45 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:44 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:35 pm

Fair enough. Just don’t pretend there’s an easy alternative where everything is great

England have questions to answer, no doubt. Keeping Eddie Jones answers none of them though.

This is surely obvious now, even to the most blinkered optimist?

We can all pretend like England were a great side before he took over if you like? Or we can pretend beating Australian means nothing anymore?

Why are you banging on about stuff from ages ago? It's irrelevant now.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:53 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:45 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:44 pm



England have questions to answer, no doubt. Keeping Eddie Jones answers none of them though.

This is surely obvious now, even to the most blinkered optimist?

We can all pretend like England were a great side before he took over if you like? Or we can pretend beating Australian means nothing anymore?

Why are you banging on about stuff from ages ago? It's irrelevant now.

My point is that we can sack Eddie but we'll keep losing in the 6N and also lose our decent record against the SH teams IMHO.

That's just pure speculation though, what's clear is that the side has regressed terribly and for whatever reasons, likely pure stubbornness, Eddie doesn't seem to want to do anything about it.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:45 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:44 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:35 pm

Fair enough. Just don’t pretend there’s an easy alternative where everything is great

England have questions to answer, no doubt. Keeping Eddie Jones answers none of them though.

This is surely obvious now, even to the most blinkered optimist?

We can all pretend like England were a great side before he took over if you like? Or we can pretend beating Australian means nothing anymore?

Discussing England's record against Australia from 2016-19 is a peculiar line as mitigation for their form during the 6Ns in 2021.

Surely the expectation of Eddie, is the same as it is of every other National coach; to prepare a side for 2023; & develop the players, & tactics to peak at that Tournament ?

Isn't this the core of the criticism of picking Youngs, & Daly; & not developing alternatives to them & Billy V ?

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:07 pm Surely the expectation of Eddie, is the same as it is of every other National coach; to prepare a side for 2023; & develop the players, & tactics to peak at that Tournament ?

Isn't this the core of the criticism of picking Youngs, & Daly; & not developing alternatives to them & Billy V ?

One gets the feeling that he doesn't believe there are any viable alternatives.

Jones is indulging himself at England's expense. He's not acting in his employer's best interests anymore. He's not fulfilling his brief.

Problem is, who on earth does his performance review?

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:41 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:07 pm Surely the expectation of Eddie, is the same as it is of every other National coach; to prepare a side for 2023; & develop the players, & tactics to peak at that Tournament ?

Isn't this the core of the criticism of picking Youngs, & Daly; & not developing alternatives to them & Billy V ?

One gets the feeling that he doesn't believe there are any viable alternatives.

That seems to be a common failing amongst SH coaches in the NH.

Not here to gloat ... honest!

England were very poor again against a mediocre Welsh side, great game to watch though. I honestly can't believe Jones is getting away with being in charge after another debacle. England have a wealth of talent around the premiership yet continue to ignore it and continue to pick guys who are ring rusty and then play a kicking game, badly against Scotland and Wales when both these teams have real talent in their back three. Why? Some other questions:

- why are the Vunipolas picked when both are clearly not match fit and look like they have been on the donuts for the past 9 months? Billy has nothing to offer and must be the slowest 8 I have ever seen, Makko just about manages to scrum ok but neither are fit enough to tackle and get back into defensive line time and time again.
- why not start the best hooker in the league but instead continue to pick a clearly unfit and lacking match hardness George?
- why continue to pick a penalty machine in Itoji - he cost your team the game yesterday?
- why pick Wilson at 6 when he is clearly not good enough at this level?
- Is Youngs the best 9 you have? Surely not?
- Farrell stifles your attack at 12, play him at 10 or not at all!
- Daly is beyond awful and his confidence has collapsed, why continue his pain? You can't pick a 15 just because he kicks the ball a long way with his left boot?

Given the impact of lock down and the interruptions it has caused, and the lack of games at Sarries, surely this was the time to field some of the younger guys who are playing every week for their clubs and are on form at the moment? I would have thought the likes of the Simmons brothers, Dombrandt and Smith at Quins to name just a few should be getting a chance to show what they can do?

Having said all the above, as a Scot, I hope Eddie remains in post for many years and continues to be just as stubborn as he always has been.

Daly continues to steal a living at full back. Two contested high balls in the match, he knocked one on and didn't get within two feet of the other. And let's not forget his crowbar into contact when all he needed to do was offload to May and it would be try time.

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:55 am Not here to gloat ... honest!

England were very poor again against a mediocre Welsh side, great game to watch though. I honestly can't believe Jones is getting away with being in charge after another debacle. England have a wealth of talent around the premiership yet continue to ignore it and continue to pick guys who are ring rusty and then play a kicking game, badly against Scotland and Wales when both these teams have real talent in their back three. Why? Some other questions:

- why are the Vunipolas picked when both are clearly not match fit and look like they have been on the donuts for the past 9 months? Billy has nothing to offer and must be the slowest 8 I have ever seen, Makko just about manages to scrum ok but neither are fit enough to tackle and get back into defensive line time and time again.
- why not start the best hooker in the league but instead continue to pick a clearly unfit and lacking match hardness George?
- why continue to pick a penalty machine in Itoji - he cost your team the game yesterday? 100% agree, however he is the last class lock standing from our star quartet with Kruis overseas and both Lawes and Launchbury injured. I can understand the temptation to hold onto him, especially when the next in line is Charlie "redefining military medium" Ewels.
- why pick Wilson at 6 when he is clearly not good enough at this level?
- Is Youngs the best 9 you have? Surely not? Nope, but Eddie's only just started giving Robson more than 5 minutes per game and ignores the other best scrum half in the league so... *shrugs shoulders*
- Farrell stifles your attack at 12, play him at 10 or not at all! Not at all has always been my preference. He stifles our attack more at 10 than 12, at least in the latter Ford can work around him and he gets a bit more time to make decisions that need to be made quicker from fly half (and thus don't get made). He's bullet proof, though. He will have to break in order to not get picked. Or kick Eddie's dog.
- Daly is beyond awful and his confidence has collapsed, why continue his pain? You can't pick a 15 just because he kicks the ball a long way with his left boot? Malins is clearly the form guy in the squad and there's some decent young bucks coming through plus the option of Watson going to 15 as he often does for Bath. Eddie's taken an outstanding 13 who could do a good job on the wing and ruined him.

Given the impact of lock down and the interruptions it has caused, and the lack of games at Sarries, surely this was the time to field some of the younger guys who are playing every week for their clubs and are on form at the moment? I would have thought the likes of the Simmonds brothers, Dombrandt and Smith at Quins to name just a few should be getting a chance to show what they can do?

Having said all the above, as a Scot, I hope Eddie remains in post for many years and continues to be just as stubborn as he always has been.

For large portions of Eddie's reign since 2017 many of us have felt like the team was winning despite tactics, at various points our players just have been that good. However, a lot of key guys, particularly Sarries players, are nowhere near that kind of form and Eddie either won't drop them or pick someone else. No one knows why, but we all speculate that it's a mixture of stubbornness and an arrogant conviction in his decisions.

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:55 am- why are the Vunipolas picked when both are clearly not match fit and look like they have been on the donuts for the past 9 months? Billy has nothing to offer and must be the slowest 8 I have ever seen, Makko just about manages to scrum ok but neither are fit enough to tackle and get back into defensive line time and time again.

Mako is a bit of a freak in a way that Billy isn't. I'd say he probably is fit enough to do that. He didn't seem to be the problem yesterday. Agreed on Billy, and it's not like he's not had long periods of being pretty shit for England before, either.

- why not start the best hooker in the league but instead continue to pick a clearly unfit and lacking match hardness George?

Christ knows. It's not like our lineout was rock solid, and he offers very little elsewhere at the moment.

- why continue to pick a penalty machine in Itoji - he cost your team the game yesterday?

Because discipline aside (I know, I know) he is head and shoulders above the next best lock, and we've lost Launchbury and Lawes as it is. Genuinely no alternative but to pick him. He just needs to rein it in a bit. Fabulous player otherwise.

- why pick Wilson at 6 when he is clearly not good enough at this level?

Because he's had a fair few games for England where he's been really good, is in excellent club form, and does a lot of the leadership work on and off the pitch apparently. The natural alternatives are either broken, not in Eddie's favour at all, or probably a bit too young at this point.

- Is Youngs the best 9 you have? Surely not?

The problem is Ben Spencer is out of favour for whatever reason, and Robson sucks at being the impact sub. Robson looks good when he can start matches, and Harry Randall seems tailor made for the impact role, but because Robson can't come on and prove Youngs should be dropped, Youngs continues.

- Farrell stifles your attack at 12, play him at 10 or not at all!

His record at 10 is pretty awful compared to Ford's. He's one of our biggest problems - Eddie has invested everything into him. He's our captain. He defines our style of play. He's our defensive leader. And so Eddie cannot look at him objectively.

- Daly is beyond awful and his confidence has collapsed, why continue his pain? You can't pick a 15 just because he kicks the ball a long way with his left boot?

He's there because he was originally brought in to add more pace and creativity. He continues to be there because Eddie is stubborn, hates dropping players who are being publicly criticised, had a bad experience when he promoted George Furbank too soon, and he hates picking players who the media are calling for (i.e. Max Malins). This problem isn't going to go away, there's a crop of good young 15s coming through who are already better at playing fullback than Daly is.

Given the impact of lock down and the interruptions it has caused, and the lack of games at Sarries, surely this was the time to field some of the younger guys who are playing every week for their clubs and are on form at the moment? I would have thought the likes of the Simmons brothers, Dombrandt and Smith at Quins to name just a few should be getting a chance to show what they can do?

Sam Simmonds has been told by Eddie that he doesn't suit Eddie's gameplan and there's no place for him in the squad - doesn't matter how well he plays. Dombrandt is far from the finished article and I'd rather see him play in a side with an attacking mindset rather than whatever England are trying to do right now. Smith is sustaining excellent performances and realistically if we were to switch to a more attacking game it should be a shootout between him and Ford, with Joe Simmonds being a more obvious pick for an Exeter-style continuity gameplan. Both Joe and Marcus are capable of playing differently to their nature though, as they've proven already. But Farrell is the issue here - we're committed to playing him in the side come what may, and Slade is the preferred 13, so we have a midfield of players who don't threaten to tear teams open on their own or score many tries but are picked for passing and kicking reasons. The balance continues to be wonky.

Having said all the above, as a Scot, I hope Eddie remains in post for many years and continues to be just as stubborn as he always has been.

As it should be!

Beautiful try from Tom James

It gladdens my heart to see Saints destroying sides in the scrum again. It's been a while.

And the second.....

Look like a completely different team to most of last year

Who is this James fella and where have you been hiding him?

Proctor seems impossible to tackle.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:26 pm Who is this James fella and where have you been hiding him?

Proctor seems impossible to tackle.

Signed from Doncaster Knights

Advantages/penalties for backs being offside at the lineout seem to be on the rise. An interesting development and a welcome one if it maintains more space.

How long before we're all clamouring for Freeman to wear the England 15 shirt?

Freeman already looks a better fullback than Daly. Hopefully Eddie will keep his grubby paws off and not ruin him.

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:29 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:26 pm Who is this James fella and where have you been hiding him?

Proctor seems impossible to tackle.

Signed from Doncaster Knights

Recently or has he just had to wait patiently for an opportunity?

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:21 pm And the second.....

Look like a completely different team to most of last year

Playing miles better without their "star" players.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:31 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:29 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:26 pm Who is this James fella and where have you been hiding him?

Proctor seems impossible to tackle.

Signed from Doncaster Knights

Recently or has he just had to wait patiently for an opportunity?

During the off-season.

Oxbow wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:30 pm Freeman already looks a better fullback than Daly. Hopefully Eddie will keep his grubby paws off and not ruin him.

No love for Furbank...........

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:36 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:31 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:29 pm

Signed from Doncaster Knights

Recently or has he just had to wait patiently for an opportunity?

During the off-season.

Ta

Freeman, Parton, Steward all suggest we're not just pinning our future hopes on Malins, which is great news.

Bath being shite is very amusing.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:36 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:21 pm And the second.....

Look like a completely different team to most of last year

Playing miles better without their "star" players.

Missing Biggar and Lawes. Lawes has been injured most of the season, so it's only really one player difference from where we have been

Sorry - and Mitchell, but he's been playing well anyway

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:37 pm

Oxbow wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:30 pm Freeman already looks a better fullback than Daly. Hopefully Eddie will keep his grubby paws off and not ruin him.

No love for Furbank...........

Picked too soon for England, form went to shite. I'd rather not see that happen again.

Been a weird game, this. Saints have butchered a few tries, and Bath have somehow taken the lead. Ben Spencer putting in a cracking display off the bench, finally shaking off the malaise that saw him play like shite for several weeks.