Worcester and Wasps GONE?

[SaintK]

I find this one hard to believe. Well, at least a surprise. HMRC has been repeatedly warned off from enforcing action against various, big name football clubs under the auspices of "too culturally important to the local community".

I guess Wuss rugby isn't owned by a Tory benefactor.

Anyway, how many years have we all being saying rugby is unsustainable in absentia of sugar daddies with limitlessly deep pockets. There is no credible business model.

The Rugby Paper reorting that 2 other clubs are being investigated by HRMC. One in the North and another in the South West of England.

[Raggs]

I find this one hard to believe. Well, at least a surprise. HMRC has been repeatedly warned off from enforcing action against various, big name football clubs under the auspices of "too culturally important to the local community".

I guess Wuss rugby isn't owned by a Tory benefactor.

Anyway, how many years have we all being saying rugby is unsustainable in absentia of sugar daddies with limitlessly deep pockets. There is no credible business model.

The Rugby Paper reorting that 2 other clubs are being investigated by HRMC. One in the North and another in the South West of England.

Gloucester and?

I presume Glaws since I can't imagine the chiefs/bristol/bath are in trouble?

[lemonhead]

Sale, surely?

[Raggs]

Sale, surely?

Sale vs Falcons? I'm not sure who I'd want to call between those two.

[SaintK]

Sale, surely?

Sale vs Falcons? I'm not sure who I'd want to call between those two.

quite!

[Chilli]

Meantime in Other news:

Care to explain?

[I like neeps]

“We appreciate with the war in Ukraine and rise in the cost of living these remain uncertain and challenging times for many.

What has the war in the Ukraine got to do with their unpaid tax bill?

Energy prices are going absolutely crazy and will be unaffordable for a huge amount of sports clubs.

[Biffer]

“We appreciate with the war in Ukraine and rise in the cost of living these remain uncertain and challenging times for many.

What has the war in the Ukraine got to do with their unpaid tax bill?

Energy prices are going absolutely crazy and will be unaffordable for a huge amount of sports clubs.

Evening kickoffs might become a thing of the past.

[Chilli]

“We appreciate with the war in Ukraine and rise in the cost of living these remain uncertain and challenging times for many.

What has the war in the Ukraine got to do with their unpaid tax bill?

Energy prices are going absolutely crazy and will be unaffordable for a huge amount of sports clubs.

Ukraine war started a few months ago.
Tax problems from a few years ago.

[Chilli]

Why not just play rugby during summer?

[Torquemada 1420]

Meantime in Other news:

That's not new news. It's already been agreed that it's happening, they tried to flip it to an away fixture but it wasn't possible.

It was a play on "Other".

Anyway, the problems are mounting because Cov now has played 3 fewer fixtures which is definitely going to result in fixture congestion. With the added complication that EFL rules do not permit you to reschedule your game (except in special circumstances) into blocks of home or away.

[Torquemada 1420]

Meantime in Other news:

Care to explain?

I assume you are aware that Coventry City have been having to postpone games because the pitch is unfit: which they are blaming their landlords for......... who are Wasps.

[sockwithaticket]

Should've made alternative arrangements as they were told to do months beforehand.

[Biffer]

Lots of stuff doing the round about the new owners stripping assets out of the club. No idea how true that is.

[Uncle fester]

Club has already been asset stripped.

[I like neeps]

What has the war in the Ukraine got to do with their unpaid tax bill?

Energy prices are going absolutely crazy and will be unaffordable for a huge amount of sports clubs.

Ukraine war started a few months ago.
Tax problems from a few years ago.

Yeah but because of lost revenue for lockdown made it harder to pay their minimum on the tax bill and with their long term viability in trouble because of energy costs they can't see the point.

[Chilli]

Meantime in Other news:

Care to explain?

I assume you are aware that Coventry City have been having to postpone games because the pitch is unfit: which they are blaming their landlords for......... who are Wasps.

Thanks.

Is Coventry City a soccer club?

[I like neeps]

Club has already been asset stripped.

Don't really understand why Sixways is valuable if there's no rugby there? The location sucks for a party/conference event so surely that's not the play. Training grounds that can have houses developed on okay but the stadium and carpark? Just sell them to the new owner of Worcester? Risky.

[Torquemada 1420]

Should've made alternative arrangements as they were told to do months beforehand.

It looks more complex than that. Cov is a tenant and this will depend upon that the tenancy agreement says. I rent a house to you and then tell you 2 months in advance I am hosting a rave there for 2 weeks: you need to find alternative accommodation. Legal?

[Torquemada 1420]

Care to explain?

I assume you are aware that Coventry City have been having to postpone games because the pitch is unfit: which they are blaming their landlords for......... who are Wasps.

Thanks.

Is Coventry City a soccer club?

Sorry. Yes.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/america ... r-AA10MyTo

What is harder to fathom is how the concept of hosting 65 games of rugby sevens in three days for the Commonwealth Games was signed off by the stadium’s landlords, rugby union side Wasps, or its operator, Arena Coventry Ltd, in the first place without appropriate contingencies being made for the new football season.

[Torquemada 1420]

Club has already been asset stripped.

Don't really understand why Sixways is valuable if there's no rugby there? The location sucks for a party/conference event so surely that's not the play. Training grounds that can have houses developed on okay but the stadium and carpark? Just sell them to the new owner of Worcester? Risky.

At a guess, prime development site just off a major junction of the M5?

[inactionman]

At the very least, selling off bits of the club to your own company just before (the threat of) administration/winding up is very poor look.

Regarding Wasp, the chairman's statement claimed that the Commonwealth 7s was signed before Coventry City agreed their tenancy:

The contract to host events for the Commonwealth Games was agreed and signed before CCFC committed to return to play their games at the Arena. They were fully aware of the timetable of events. We were advised that a number of games should be played away from home at the start of the football season to allow sufficient time for the pitch to be prepared, but we were informed by CCFC that this was not possible.

https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/wasps-grou ... e-officer/

There may be a few shenanigans there around what is meant by 'committed to return', of course.

[Raggs]

Should've made alternative arrangements as they were told to do months beforehand.

It looks more complex than that. Cov is a tenant and this will depend upon that the tenancy agreement says. I rent a house to you and then tell you 2 months in advance I am hosting a rave there for 2 weeks: you need to find alternative accommodation. Legal?

I rent you a place to hold your game night, but inform you that someone else has already booked it for a week, so you'll have to find an alternative location for that period...

Commonwealth games had already booked the stadium before the deal with cov city, they came into the tenancy fully aware of what the situation was then.

[Raggs]

At the very least, selling off bits of the club to your own company just before (the threat of) administration/winding up is very poor look.

Regarding Wasp, the chairman's statement claimed that the Commonwealth 7s was signed before Coventry City agreed their tenancy:

The contract to host events for the Commonwealth Games was agreed and signed before CCFC committed to return to play their games at the Arena. They were fully aware of the timetable of events. We were advised that a number of games should be played away from home at the start of the football season to allow sufficient time for the pitch to be prepared, but we were informed by CCFC that this was not possible.

https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/wasps-grou ... e-officer/

There may be a few shenanigans there around what is meant by 'committed to return', of course.

I'd say committed to return is signing the contract. And considering how dodgy and poorly sisu has behaved in the past, I absolutely wouldn't pass up on any other business whilst waiting for them to maybe/maybe not sign.

[inactionman]

At the very least, selling off bits of the club to your own company just before (the threat of) administration/winding up is very poor look.

Regarding Wasp, the chairman's statement claimed that the Commonwealth 7s was signed before Coventry City agreed their tenancy:

The contract to host events for the Commonwealth Games was agreed and signed before CCFC committed to return to play their games at the Arena. They were fully aware of the timetable of events. We were advised that a number of games should be played away from home at the start of the football season to allow sufficient time for the pitch to be prepared, but we were informed by CCFC that this was not possible.

https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/wasps-grou ... e-officer/

There may be a few shenanigans there around what is meant by 'committed to return', of course.

I'd say committed to return is signing the contract. And considering how dodgy and poorly sisu has behaved in the past, I absolutely wouldn't pass up on any other business whilst waiting for them to maybe/maybe not sign.

Pretty much - wouldn't surprise me if Sisu were holding out for terms of desperation from Wasps, dragging it out until the 11th hour.

[I like neeps]

Club has already been asset stripped.

Don't really understand why Sixways is valuable if there's no rugby there? The location sucks for a party/conference event so surely that's not the play. Training grounds that can have houses developed on okay but the stadium and carpark? Just sell them to the new owner of Worcester? Risky.

At a guess, prime development site just off a major junction of the M5?

There's virtually no development around there though, doesn't seem very prime to me.

[Brazil]

Is it in the Golden Triangle or whatever the name is for optimum freight delivery times? Doesn't sound good for Wuss, it must be said.

[Torquemada 1420]

Should've made alternative arrangements as they were told to do months beforehand.

It looks more complex than that. Cov is a tenant and this will depend upon that the tenancy agreement says. I rent a house to you and then tell you 2 months in advance I am hosting a rave there for 2 weeks: you need to find alternative accommodation. Legal?

I rent you a place to hold your game night, but inform you that someone else has already booked it for a week, so you'll have to find an alternative location for that period...

Commonwealth games had already booked the stadium before the deal with cov city, they came into the tenancy fully aware of what the situation was then.

Your example is a poor one. Venue hosting and long term occupancy leases are entirely different things. Anyway, the a priori agreement with the CW Games is irrelevant if the tenancy agreement does not permit Wasps to sublet or if it fails to make mention of it at all**.
** unless Wasps can prove implied contract terms.

I have no skin in this but for Wasps sake, they had better be right because Cov is facing the prospect of significant external bills in the way of fines from the EFL and litigation from the teams who have suffered pps. There is already talk of Cov's opponents being awarded the points
- which will not sit well with other Championship teams if that results in someone else losing out at season's end
- and if Cov. is relegated as a result, there will be the costs associated with lost income in a drop to L1

[Torquemada 1420]

There's virtually no development around there though, doesn't seem very prime to me.

I drove past it on the way to Brockhampton Estate not that long ago and it looked like a lot of tin shacks to me. Maybe not on the scale of DIRFT (M1), but pretty obvious.

[Raggs]

It looks more complex than that. Cov is a tenant and this will depend upon that the tenancy agreement says. I rent a house to you and then tell you 2 months in advance I am hosting a rave there for 2 weeks: you need to find alternative accommodation. Legal?

I rent you a place to hold your game night, but inform you that someone else has already booked it for a week, so you'll have to find an alternative location for that period...

Commonwealth games had already booked the stadium before the deal with cov city, they came into the tenancy fully aware of what the situation was then.

Your example is a poor one. Venue hosting and long term occupancy leases are entirely different things. Anyway, the a priori agreement with the CW Games is irrelevant if the tenancy agreement does not permit Wasps to sublet or if it fails to make mention of it at all**.
** unless Wasps can prove implied contract terms.

I have no skin in this but for Wasps sake, they had better be right because Cov is facing the prospect of significant external bills in the way of fines from the EFL and litigation from the teams who have suffered pps. There is already talk of Cov's opponents being awarded the points
- which will not sit well with other Championship teams if that results in someone else losing out at season's end
- and if Cov. is relegated as a result, there will be the costs associated with lost income in a drop to L1

I did also point out to you, when you posted the image in the first place, that it's already been resolved between ccfc and wasps...

[Torquemada 1420]

I did also point out to you, when you posted the image in the first place, that it's already been resolved between ccfc and wasps...

Apologies. Did not see that. Nor have I read that anywhere other than Cov will aim to be back in action (at home) at the end of August whilst Wasps (it seems) will be paying to fix the pitch.

a) This still does not get Cov off the hook with EFL or the non-fulfilment fixture clubs.
b) It doesn't mean the work will work in time for the scheduled August date and nor does it mean the pitch will then hold up for the rest of the season: Winter looming.
c) The fact that Wasps appear to be paying to fix the pitch looks like an admission of liability from where I stand!

So, FWIW, I don't think this saga has concluded just yet.

{EDIT}
Here is the official statement from EFL
The primary objective for the EFL is to get Coventry City playing at the CBS Arena as soon as the pitch is in a safe condition for the participants. It is only then that the League will consider the collective circumstances of each postponement before determining what course of action could be taken in accordance with the regulations.

[Paddington Bear]

It’s pretty astonishing that the unsustainably of the rugby model and the pie in the sky predictions of growth from unions, clubs and professional investors have been ridiculed by your average rugby fan for years, yet the people running it and putting in the cash seem to be completely surprised.

Pro rugby has completely wrecked the game as a pastime and I suspect will lead to it pretty much dying completely over the next few decades. We all saw this coming

On this I went up to A&C on President's Day earlier this year and was genuinely staggered to learn that Beaconsfield were only putting out their 2s for either the second or third time that season. Another local club is down to one side and talking to a player from another big side at Lord's he said verbatim 'I'm hopeful we'll play most of our 2s games this season'. Doubt that this is unique to Bucks.

[Torquemada 1420]

It’s pretty astonishing that the unsustainably of the rugby model and the pie in the sky predictions of growth from unions, clubs and professional investors have been ridiculed by your average rugby fan for years, yet the people running it and putting in the cash seem to be completely surprised.

Pro rugby has completely wrecked the game as a pastime and I suspect will lead to it pretty much dying completely over the next few decades. We all saw this coming

On this I went up to A&C on President's Day earlier this year and was genuinely staggered to learn that Beaconsfield were only putting out their 2s for either the second or third time that season. Another local club is down to one side and talking to a player from another big side at Lord's he said verbatim 'I'm hopeful we'll play most of our 2s games this season'. Doubt that this is unique to Bucks.

Can only report the same at my end of Bucks bordering into Northants. However, the reverse seems to be true in France where there has been a widening attraction amongst the poorer classes in city areas and a big upswing in girls playing. That was an untapped area and might offer some hope of salvation in Eng where, still, too few working class kids get anywhere near the game.

[mos_eisely_]

The asset stripping of Worcester by its directors has begun

[SaintK]

Ollie Lawrence summing it up nicely

[Iain(bobbity)]

Is it in the Golden Triangle or whatever the name is for optimum freight delivery times? Doesn't sound good for Wuss, it must be said.

I'd have thought it's pretty much in there, yes.

Would be an interesting planning situation though, that side of the Sixways roundabout/A449 only really has Warriors land (stadium, David Lloyd gym) and a small highways depot. Apart from that it's training pitches, WCRFC and agricultural land really.

The other side of the roundabout though, down the Pershore road, is rapidly being built on. Huge units gone up over the last few years, more being built now.

edit - Comment on twitter about the stadium being in Wychavon council not Worcester city seems to be accurate. The A449/M5 marks the boundary, hence the area to the south-west of the stadium being in Worcester city and therefore more developed. All the new units on the Pershore road are in Wychavon though.

[Torquemada 1420]

Is it in the Golden Triangle or whatever the name is for optimum freight delivery times? Doesn't sound good for Wuss, it must be said.

I'd have thought it's pretty much in there, yes.

Would be an interesting planning situation though, that side of the Sixways roundabout/A449 only really has Warriors land (stadium, David Lloyd gym) and a small highways depot. Apart from that it's training pitches, WCRFC and agricultural land really.

The other side of the roundabout though, down the Pershore road, is rapidly being built on. Huge units gone up over the last few years, more being built now.

edit - Comment on twitter about the stadium being in Wychavon council not Worcester city seems to be accurate. The A449/M5 marks the boundary, hence the area to the south-west of the stadium being in Worcester city and therefore more developed. All the new units on the Pershore road are in Wychavon though.

Must be the bit I could see from M5 exit.

[Slick]

It’s pretty astonishing that the unsustainably of the rugby model and the pie in the sky predictions of growth from unions, clubs and professional investors have been ridiculed by your average rugby fan for years, yet the people running it and putting in the cash seem to be completely surprised.

Pro rugby has completely wrecked the game as a pastime and I suspect will lead to it pretty much dying completely over the next few decades. We all saw this coming

On this I went up to A&C on President's Day earlier this year and was genuinely staggered to learn that Beaconsfield were only putting out their 2s for either the second or third time that season. Another local club is down to one side and talking to a player from another big side at Lord's he said verbatim 'I'm hopeful we'll play most of our 2s games this season'. Doubt that this is unique to Bucks.

That's not good to hear. It was only a couple of years ago that they were running a 3rd's and a massive vets team. I was speaking to a guy from Musselburgh RC yesterday and he was saying they now have a 2nd's and a 3rd that plays occasionally, jointly, with another local club. This is a Prem team. Also saw a thing a couple of weeks ago about the numbers in NZ being massively down. It's worldwide and I'm convinced it's the slow death of rugby, thanks to idiotic professionalism.

[Torquemada 1420]

It’s pretty astonishing that the unsustainably of the rugby model and the pie in the sky predictions of growth from unions, clubs and professional investors have been ridiculed by your average rugby fan for years, yet the people running it and putting in the cash seem to be completely surprised.

Pro rugby has completely wrecked the game as a pastime and I suspect will lead to it pretty much dying completely over the next few decades. We all saw this coming

On this I went up to A&C on President's Day earlier this year and was genuinely staggered to learn that Beaconsfield were only putting out their 2s for either the second or third time that season. Another local club is down to one side and talking to a player from another big side at Lord's he said verbatim 'I'm hopeful we'll play most of our 2s games this season'. Doubt that this is unique to Bucks.

That's not good to hear. It was only a couple of years ago that they were running a 3rd's and a massive vets team. I was speaking to a guy from Musselburgh RC yesterday and he was saying they now have a 2nd's and a 3rd that plays occasionally, jointly, with another local club. This is a Prem team. Also saw a thing a couple of weeks ago about the numbers in NZ being massively down. It's worldwide and I'm convinced it's the slow death of rugby, thanks to idiotic professionalism.

My only caveat to this would be the COVID effect. 2 years away from any activity is likely to result in a decline in nos. which might be distorting the picture.

[Paddington Bear]

On this I went up to A&C on President's Day earlier this year and was genuinely staggered to learn that Beaconsfield were only putting out their 2s for either the second or third time that season. Another local club is down to one side and talking to a player from another big side at Lord's he said verbatim 'I'm hopeful we'll play most of our 2s games this season'. Doubt that this is unique to Bucks.

That's not good to hear. It was only a couple of years ago that they were running a 3rd's and a massive vets team. I was speaking to a guy from Musselburgh RC yesterday and he was saying they now have a 2nd's and a 3rd that plays occasionally, jointly, with another local club. This is a Prem team. Also saw a thing a couple of weeks ago about the numbers in NZ being massively down. It's worldwide and I'm convinced it's the slow death of rugby, thanks to idiotic professionalism.

My only caveat to this would be the COVID effect. 2 years away from any activity is likely to result in a decline in nos. which might be distorting the picture.

I'd imagine a lot of guys in their 30s & 40s found that once you stop playing it's hard to get going again. So I don't hold out hope those numbers will bounce back, suspect this is a 'new normal'. Of course once you reach this level of numbers all it takes is a few front row injuries and you can't put out a 1st XV.