Worcester and Wasps GONE?

[Margin__Walker]

Lot's of signs of financial distress with talk of late payment of player wages and suppliers. Now this, which looks pretty dire

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ing-order/

Worcester Warriors have been hit by a winding-up petition from HM Revenue & Customs over an unpaid tax bill, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The taxman is seeking the Premiership club’s liquidation at a court hearing that could take place within weeks unless the club settles the debt.
Worcester said: “Worcester Warriors, along with many other businesses and most sports clubs have found the past two years extremely challenging owing to the Covid-19 pandemic and the rise in the cost of living.

“We retained our staff but lost income during the various lockdowns during which the overwhelming majority of matches were played behind closed doors. We returned to normal operations 12 months ago carrying a tax liability to HMRC. From the outset, we have worked closely and openly with HMRC on a plan to clear these liabilities and a Time to Pay (TTP) arrangement has been in place.

“The club owners and board are fully committed to preserving top-flight professional rugby in Worcester and have been working on solutions to secure the financial future of Worcester Warriors and to pay outstanding tax owed to HMRC. A solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. Unfortunately, there have been unavoidable delays beyond the club’s control to the final tasks required to complete the funding.

“Having kept HMRC fully apprised of the situation we are disappointed that they have taken the decision to issue a winding-up petition. The club’s directors are in continuing dialogue with HMRC in an attempt to find a speedy and satisfactory resolution.

“We have also been in communication with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, Sport England, Premiership Rugby and the RFU [Rugby Football Union] regarding this matter.”

HMRC declined to comment.

News of the winding-up petition comes two months after Worcester were late paying their players’ May salaries.

The club said at the time: “A short delay in paying a small number of players was caused by a short-term cashflow issue that has now been resolved.

“Warriors, like most major sports clubs and businesses, saw income streams severely affected during the various lockdowns caused by Covid-19.

“We appreciate with the war in Ukraine and rise in the cost of living these remain uncertain and challenging times for many.

“As a club and business we are very grateful to the support, understanding and loyalty of our bankers, suppliers, commercial partners, supporters and staff during this period.

“We will continue to diversify the range of activities at Sixways to generate more non-rugby matchday revenue.

“We are also working on plans for a major project to develop the whole Sixways site which we believe will secure the long-term future of Warriors as a sustainable Premiership rugby club.”

Telegraph Sport has also been told Worcester took out a multi-million-pound loan last year under the Government’s Covid-19 Sport’ Winter Survival Package, in which £88m was made available to Premiership teams.

A charge was placed on clubs in a bid to safeguard those long-term loans in the event they failed to repay them.

[Tichtheid]

Can we have vd Merwe, Sutherland and McCallum back then?

[Margin__Walker]

Can we have vd Merwe, Sutherland and McCallum back then?

Wouldn't rule it out. Short of an investor stepping in, I can't really see how they get themselves out of this.

We'll see though.

[Torquemada 1420]

I find this one hard to believe. Well, at least a surprise. HMRC has been repeatedly warned off from enforcing action against various, big name football clubs under the auspices of "too culturally important to the local community".

I guess Wuss rugby isn't owned by a Tory benefactor.

Anyway, how many years have we all being saying rugby is unsustainable in absentia of sugar daddies with limitlessly deep pockets. There is no credible business model.

[Slick]

I was absolutely amazed anyone took it over from the previous owners to be honest. They pumped in plenty of cash but was run on a daily basis by a kid who wasn't into rugby and who viewed the role, at the very best, as part time. It was just a plaything.

[Margin__Walker]

They have very little going for them really unfortunately. Unprofitable sport/league in the first place, small fan base and owners that are more Del Boy than Steve Lansdown.

[Paddington Bear]

So we could very feasibly be two clubs down before the season gets going, and this is before energy bills etc go nuts. How many will we have left by the end?

[KingBlairhorn]

I find this one hard to believe. Well, at least a surprise. HMRC has been repeatedly warned off from enforcing action against various, big name football clubs under the auspices of "too culturally important to the local community".

I guess Wuss rugby isn't owned by a Tory benefactor.

Anyway, how many years have we all being saying rugby is unsustainable in absentia of sugar daddies with limitlessly deep pockets. There is no credible business model*.

*in England. It works fine in Scotland and Ireland with the different model.

[inactionman]

I was absolutely amazed anyone took it over from the previous owners to be honest. They pumped in plenty of cash but was run on a daily basis by a kid who wasn't into rugby and who viewed the role, at the very best, as part time. It was just a plaything.

I don't know much about worcesters owners but thought it was previously held by some consortium who seemed to only hang around for about 5 minutes. Do you mean Greg Allen?

I thought the playboy owner was at Gloucester, the Walkinshaw lad.

[Slick]

I was absolutely amazed anyone took it over from the previous owners to be honest. They pumped in plenty of cash but was run on a daily basis by a kid who wasn't into rugby and who viewed the role, at the very best, as part time. It was just a plaything.

I don't know much about worcesters owners but thought it was previously held by some consortium who seemed to only hang around for about 5 minutes. Do you mean Greg Allen?

I thought the playboy owner was at Gloucester, the Walkinshaw lad.

Yes, I mean Greg. Didn’t realise there had been someone in between!

[Biffer]

Can we have vd Merwe, Sutherland and McCallum back then?

Sutherland first on the list. VdM won't be short of a contract and I'd rather McCallum got game time somewhere

[assfly]

If Wasps and Worcester did fold, would they be forced to bring up Ealing and someone else from the Championship?

[Brazil]

If Wasps and Worcester did fold, would they be forced to bring up Ealing and someone else from the Championship?

I'd rather hope they'd see this as the opportunity to rationalise the league and championship system, reduce the number of games being played and take a bit of stress of the players. It won't happen of course, because any move to close off the unrealistic pipe-dreams of championship clubs that are basically smaller versions of the sugar daddy funded Prem teams gets portrayed as killing the grass roots of the game by rugby hacks, and the dream of "Doing an Exeter" (rather than the much more probable "doing a Rotherham or Worcester") is much more romantic than facing reality that the pro model is unsustainable and there aren't enough resources to service what exists at the moment.

[Slick]

If Wasps and Worcester did fold, would they be forced to bring up Ealing and someone else from the Championship?

I'd rather hope they'd see this as the opportunity to rationalise the league and championship system, reduce the number of games being played and take a bit of stress of the players. It won't happen of course, because any move to close off the unrealistic pipe-dreams of championship clubs that are basically smaller versions of the sugar daddy funded Prem teams gets portrayed as killing the grass roots of the game by rugby hacks, and the dream of "Doing an Exeter" (rather than the much more probable "doing a Rotherham or Worcester") is much more romantic than facing reality that the pro model is unsustainable and there aren't enough resources to service what exists at the moment.

Quite. Potentially the reality check the whole game needs. It won’t be

[Torquemada 1420]

I find this one hard to believe. Well, at least a surprise. HMRC has been repeatedly warned off from enforcing action against various, big name football clubs under the auspices of "too culturally important to the local community".

I guess Wuss rugby isn't owned by a Tory benefactor.

Anyway, how many years have we all being saying rugby is unsustainable in absentia of sugar daddies with limitlessly deep pockets. There is no credible business model*.

*in England. It works fine in Scotland and Ireland with the different model.

Fair comment. It's f**ked in Aus and Wal. NZ and SA to some degree too. Fre clubs only survive this due to a combo of benefactors and, to a lesser extent, municipal stadia for some.

[Torquemada 1420]

If Wasps and Worcester did fold, would they be forced to bring up Ealing and someone else from the Championship?

I'd rather hope they'd see this as the opportunity to rationalise the league and championship system, reduce the number of games being played and take a bit of stress of the players. It won't happen of course, because any move to close off the unrealistic pipe-dreams of championship clubs that are basically smaller versions of the sugar daddy funded Prem teams gets portrayed as killing the grass roots of the game by rugby hacks, and the dream of "Doing an Exeter" (rather than the much more probable "doing a Rotherham or Worcester") is much more romantic than facing reality that the pro model is unsustainable and there aren't enough resources to service what exists at the moment.

All of this although if the model was forced to be sustainable, it's should be entirely possible for a well run Championship club to succeed. I'm still very much in the camp that closed leagues are a bad thing and it's part of the reason Eng clubs have been so sh*t in Europe for the last few years. Of course, hard to pick from that how much the funding gap between Eng and T14 is a contributory aspect of that. I'd throw Bath in as the problem personified: large resources, quality player pool but in absentia of a reason to survive, they don't give a monkeys.

[sockwithaticket]

If Wasps and Worcester did fold, would they be forced to bring up Ealing and someone else from the Championship?

I'd rather hope they'd see this as the opportunity to rationalise the league and championship system, reduce the number of games being played and take a bit of stress of the players. It won't happen of course, because any move to close off the unrealistic pipe-dreams of championship clubs that are basically smaller versions of the sugar daddy funded Prem teams gets portrayed as killing the grass roots of the game by rugby hacks, and the dream of "Doing an Exeter" (rather than the much more probable "doing a Rotherham or Worcester") is much more romantic than facing reality that the pro model is unsustainable and there aren't enough resources to service what exists at the moment.

All of this although if the model was forced to be sustainable, it's should be entirely possible for a well run Championship club to succeed. I'm still very much in the camp that closed leagues are a bad thing and it's part of the reason Eng clubs have been so sh*t in Europe for the last few years. Of course, hard to pick from that how much the funding gap between Eng and T14 is a contributory aspect of that. I'd throw Bath in as the problem personified: large resources, quality player pool but in absentia of a reason to survive, they don't give a monkeys.

They've clearly been even worse this season, but Bath have had plenty of bang average seasons when relegation has been in play. There's a deep cultural issue of some sort at that club.

I'd say the funding gap and the consequent deficit in depth and talent rather than a closed league is more to blame for English clubs' performance in Europe recently..

[robmatic]

I find this one hard to believe. Well, at least a surprise. HMRC has been repeatedly warned off from enforcing action against various, big name football clubs under the auspices of "too culturally important to the local community".

I guess Wuss rugby isn't owned by a Tory benefactor.

Anyway, how many years have we all being saying rugby is unsustainable in absentia of sugar daddies with limitlessly deep pockets. There is no credible business model*.

*in England. It works fine in Scotland and Ireland with the different model.

You would think that England would be much better placed given that the market is 10 times bigger and they've actually had TV revenue and full stadiums since the beginning of the professional era.

[Paddington Bear]

Wonder what the endgame of this is. Plenty of clubs are barely sustainable and will have issues affording to play under floodlights as energy prices spike. Unscientific but would imagine that the Friday night game gets a fair chunk of BT's rugby audience.

[Margin__Walker]

Wonder what the endgame of this is. Plenty of clubs are barely sustainable and will have issues affording to play under floodlights as energy prices spike. Unscientific but would imagine that the Friday night game gets a fair chunk of BT's rugby audience.

Yep, failing any great increase in interest in club rugby (and thus gates/TV revenue), It's just never going to be anything close to profitable for many clubs. Especially with player salaries artificially high in relation to revenues.

For clubs without an owner with bottomless pockets or a big local fan base, there doesn't really seem to be an answer.

[Torquemada 1420]

They've clearly been even worse this season, but Bath have had plenty of bang average seasons when relegation has been in play. There's a deep cultural issue of some sort at that club.

I'd say the funding gap and the consequent deficit in depth and talent rather than a closed league is more to blame for English clubs' performance in Europe recently..

Yes, but relegation doesn't prevent the same behaviour setting in once a team is safe but with nothing to play for i.e. "middle table syndrome".

I acknowledged your last point but still think it's impossible to measure. Since the imposition of JIFF, Fre clubs have had to field more Fre players (and the ntl team has clearly benefited): so the influence of money recruiting foreign mercs has weakened. The days of RCT Galacticos have gone. So, are we saying that Eng players are inherently less talented? I know there is still a difference in what stars Fre clubs can still field versus GP but that does not explain the gap in entirety IMHO.

[I like neeps]

Wonder what the endgame of this is. Plenty of clubs are barely sustainable and will have issues affording to play under floodlights as energy prices spike. Unscientific but would imagine that the Friday night game gets a fair chunk of BT's rugby audience.

Punters have less money too. I'd think going to games will be one of the first discretionary spending cuts.

[Torquemada 1420]

Wonder what the endgame of this is. Plenty of clubs are barely sustainable and will have issues affording to play under floodlights as energy prices spike. Unscientific but would imagine that the Friday night game gets a fair chunk of BT's rugby audience.

Yep, failing any great increase in interest in club rugby (and thus gates/TV revenue), It's just never going to be anything close to profitable for many clubs. Especially with player salaries artificially high in relation to revenues.

For clubs without an owner with bottomless pockets or a big local fan base, there don't seem to be a lot of solutions.

The glaring issue since the dawn of professionalism. The game has simply worn blinkers to shade itself from the truth.

As you highlight, the difference with football is that the latter has a huge audience which drags in £gazillions in sponsorship/ads etc. Rugby will never be football in revenue terms but whilst WR continues to make the game too complex for the layman whilst simultaneously orchestrating a law set that makes most games a turgid sh*tfest, audiences are more likely to be driven in the reverse direction.

[Margin__Walker]

Wonder what the endgame of this is. Plenty of clubs are barely sustainable and will have issues affording to play under floodlights as energy prices spike. Unscientific but would imagine that the Friday night game gets a fair chunk of BT's rugby audience.

Yep, failing any great increase in interest in club rugby (and thus gates/TV revenue), It's just never going to be anything close to profitable for many clubs. Especially with player salaries artificially high in relation to revenues.

For clubs without an owner with bottomless pockets or a big local fan base, there don't seem to be a lot of solutions.

The glaring issue since the dawn of professionalism. The game has simply worn blinkers to shade itself from the truth.

As you highlight, the difference with football is that the latter has a huge audience which drags in £gazillions in sponsorship/ads etc. Rugby will never be football in revenue terms but whilst WR continues to make the game too complex for the layman whilst simultaneously orchestrating a law set that makes most games a turgid sh*tfest, audiences are more likely to be driven in the reverse direction.

Another challenge for rugby in England has always been converting that casual 6 Nations/International interest into interest in the club game. There are huge swathes of people you run into who are actually fairly clued up on international rugby, but have no interest in supporting a professional club.

[sockwithaticket]

They've clearly been even worse this season, but Bath have had plenty of bang average seasons when relegation has been in play. There's a deep cultural issue of some sort at that club.

I'd say the funding gap and the consequent deficit in depth and talent rather than a closed league is more to blame for English clubs' performance in Europe recently..

Yes, but relegation doesn't prevent the same behaviour setting in once a team is safe but with nothing to play for i.e. "middle table syndrome".

I acknowledged your last point but still think it's impossible to measure. Since the imposition of JIFF, Fre clubs have had to field more Fre players (and the ntl team has clearly benefited): so the influence of money recruiting foreign mercs has weakened. The days of RCT Galacticos have gone. So, are we saying that Eng players are inherently less talented? I know there is still a difference in what stars Fre clubs can still field versus GP but that does not explain the gap in entirety IMHO.

True, but nothing to play for isn't really the case until quite late in the season usually for mid-table teams. The 3rd and 4th playoff spots and European qualification often go down to the last couple of rounds and tends to impact the top two thirds of the league.

While there are obviously more French players around it still feels like there's a fair number of foreign players in the best teams of the clubs who go deep into the competition like Toulouse and Racing. More, though, it's about depth. Money allows you to have bigger squads and rotate more, leaving better players fresher for Europe if so chosen. Or maybe English players are crapper on average. Who knows, but I know which angle I prefer as the supporter of a middling English club!

[Torquemada 1420]

Another challenge for rugby in England has always been converting that casual 6 Nations/International interest into interest in the club game. There are huge swathes of people you run into who are actually fairly clued up on international rugby, but have no interest in supporting a professional club.

This is an interesting one because it's kinda the reverse in Fra and Wal. In Eng, the tribalism really seems rooted at the ntl level i.e. from the 5/6N. Also, club support is basically from rugby types......... and few who are working class. It's a leisure activity like going to the cinema.

In Fra, the game started very, very much as working class tribalism: the oft quoted esprit de clocher. So much so that I'd argue much of the attending support for the ntl game was NOT from true/normal rugby fans. OK, part of that is down to the ntl game being centred in Paris whereas the club game was principally in the South, but the point stands. You get a sense of the difference when you hear the noise at somewhere like Michelin or AIme Giral which are the same sort of frenzied atmospheres you see at every football game at all levels. Compare that with "Wasps, Wasps, Wasps".

I don't know how you fix that or even if you can. It's a cultural thing and in Eng football occupies the slot whereas in Wal (historically) and the South of France (and NZ too), rugby holds sway.

{EDIT} Sorry. I didn't properly finish what I was trying to convey. In Eng, watching club rugby is a leisure activity and so has to compete with n other options and is not embedded into the identity or culture of the attendees. In France it is part of the lifestyle just as football is to those who march through the turnstiles.

[Paddington Bear]

Yep, failing any great increase in interest in club rugby (and thus gates/TV revenue), It's just never going to be anything close to profitable for many clubs. Especially with player salaries artificially high in relation to revenues.

For clubs without an owner with bottomless pockets or a big local fan base, there don't seem to be a lot of solutions.

The glaring issue since the dawn of professionalism. The game has simply worn blinkers to shade itself from the truth.

As you highlight, the difference with football is that the latter has a huge audience which drags in £gazillions in sponsorship/ads etc. Rugby will never be football in revenue terms but whilst WR continues to make the game too complex for the layman whilst simultaneously orchestrating a law set that makes most games a turgid sh*tfest, audiences are more likely to be driven in the reverse direction.

Another challenge for rugby in England has always been converting that casual 6 Nations/International interest into interest in the club game. There are huge swathes of people you run into who are actually fairly clued up on international rugby, but have no interest in supporting a professional club.

Yep. When we talk about why rugby clubs get interest from the taxman football clubs seem to be exempt from, it is just a fact that very few pro rugby clubs are 'community assets' in the way that lower league football teams are (maybe Gloucester/Leicester/Northampton/Bath are exceptions). Worcester came from nothing a few years ago and bar a miracle look like they'll head back that way.

[Kawazaki]

I've never been to it but Sixways stadium looks like one of the best in the Premiership on TV.


p.s it might be time to swallow some humble pie and for other clubs to look at what Saracens were doing with regards to JVs with players.

[Margin__Walker]

Talk of meetings today where non playing staff told they can look for other jobs and imminent administration etc. Also of large sums being owed to HMRC and plenty of activity at Companies House. Even if they find the immediate 300k, their overall liabilities must be eye watering when compared to their revenue.

[JM2K6]

You follow Jake on Twitter????

[Margin__Walker]

You follow Jake on Twitter????

Ha. I don't follow him. I had no idea that guy was him. First time I can remember seeing that account.

I naively assumed Jake's name was Jake.

[Torquemada 1420]

You follow Jake on Twitter????

Ha. I don't follow him. I had no idea that guy was him. First time I can remember seeing that account.

I naively assumed Jake's name was Jake.

He has many names.

[Slick]

It’s pretty astonishing that the unsustainably of the rugby model and the pie in the sky predictions of growth from unions, clubs and professional investors have been ridiculed by your average rugby fan for years, yet the people running it and putting in the cash seem to be completely surprised.

Pro rugby has completely wrecked the game as a pastime and I suspect will lead to it pretty much dying completely over the next few decades. We all saw this coming

[PCPhil]

It’s pretty astonishing that the unsustainably of the rugby model and the pie in the sky predictions of growth from unions, clubs and professional investors have been ridiculed by your average rugby fan for years, yet the people running it and putting in the cash seem to be completely surprised.

Pro rugby has completely wrecked the game as a pastime and I suspect will lead to it pretty much dying completely over the next few decades. We all saw this coming

…..and on the plus side?

[Uncle fester]

Wonder what the endgame of this is. Plenty of clubs are barely sustainable and will have issues affording to play under floodlights as energy prices spike. Unscientific but would imagine that the Friday night game gets a fair chunk of BT's rugby audience.

France is the only country in 6n that has the supporter base to even remotely follow a soccer type model. The others need to cut their cloth to measure because rugby is a niche sport that has probably reached it's capacity in the short/medium term..

[PornDog]

Wonder what the endgame of this is. Plenty of clubs are barely sustainable and will have issues affording to play under floodlights as energy prices spike. Unscientific but would imagine that the Friday night game gets a fair chunk of BT's rugby audience.

Yep, failing any great increase in interest in club rugby (and thus gates/TV revenue), It's just never going to be anything close to profitable for many clubs. Especially with player salaries artificially high in relation to revenues.

For clubs without an owner with bottomless pockets or a big local fan base, there doesn't really seem to be an answer.

That right there is the beginning, middle and end of the issue! COVID has just helped to bring it to a head.

I mean fair play to the players for getting what they can, but the game is being horribly mismanaged by those above them.

[Torquemada 1420]

France is the only country in 6n that has the supporter base to even remotely follow a soccer type model. The others need to cut their cloth to measure because rugby is a niche sport that has probably reached it's capacity in the short/medium term..

And even that came at the price of killing most of the clubs in the original heartland of the game.

[Chilli]

“We appreciate with the war in Ukraine and rise in the cost of living these remain uncertain and challenging times for many.

What has the war in the Ukraine got to do with their unpaid tax bill?

[Torquemada 1420]

Meantime in Other news:

[Raggs]

Meantime in Other news:

That's not new news. It's already been agreed that it's happening, they tried to flip it to an away fixture but it wasn't possible.