NPR

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:06 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 5:01 pm

epwc wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 4:34 pm

It’s very true that white dominated countries are the best run but that’s because they pillaged the rest of the world to generate the wealth necessary to achieve that.

I absolutely do not believe that white people are by default racist, it’s not about the bulk of white people, it’s about the minority that are kicking off right now

Lol, that's pretty out there to think that good
governance is dependent on pillaged wealth

Here's some internet list of the best governed countries in the world, so basically fact

Switzerland 1
New Zealand 2
Denmark 3
Sweden 4
Finland 5
Luxembourg 6
Canada 7
Norway 8

Not that much wealth pillaging going on there

Maybe a better way of looking at it is the inverse, what are the worst run countries? Chances are they are all post-colonial countries dealing with the mess the western states left behind.

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:24 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:01 pm

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 3:57 pm White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:38 pm

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 3:57 pm White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It's also very easy to ridicule and dismiss these people, and suggest they are racist and ignorant, however right wing political parties are gaining more and more traction throughout the western world because they feel so disenfranchised.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:46 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:06 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 5:01 pm

Lol, that's pretty out there to think that good
governance is dependent on pillaged wealth

Here's some internet list of the best governed countries in the world, so basically fact

Switzerland 1
New Zealand 2
Denmark 3
Sweden 4
Finland 5
Luxembourg 6
Canada 7
Norway 8

Not that much wealth pillaging going on there

Maybe a better way of looking at it is the inverse, what are the worst run countries? Chances are they are all post-colonial countries dealing with the mess the western states left behind.

How does this argument deal with, say, Poland? Subject to genocide, occupied repeatedly through the 20th century, pillaged by both the Germans and Russians, and within 20 years or so of the end of the Cold War a first world country. Similarly Vietnam, decades of war, carpet bombed, people in reeducation camps and now stable and prosperous. Or half a hundred other examples of nations left in utter shit in the 20th century that are now successes. Africa has a set of issues all its own, its too easy to blame it on others

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:49 pm

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:24 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:01 pm

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

Firstly, that’s a Ladybird version of the Islamic Revolution.

Second, I had an off the record briefing today about Ghana, basically the next 2 elections have already been agreed over a handshake. Such a shame for the country

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:12 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:46 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:06 pm

Maybe a better way of looking at it is the inverse, what are the worst run countries? Chances are they are all post-colonial countries dealing with the mess the western states left behind.

How does this argument deal with, say, Poland? Subject to genocide, occupied repeatedly through the 20th century, pillaged by both the Germans and Russians, and within 20 years or so of the end of the Cold War a first world country. Similarly Vietnam, decades of war, carpet bombed, people in reeducation camps and now stable and prosperous. Or half a hundred other examples of nations left in utter shit in the 20th century that are now successes. Africa has a set of issues all its own, its too easy to blame it on others

There's that and there's also the point that if you are going to blame the colonial power indefinitely for the state of your country then it rather defeats the purpose of gaining independence.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:59 pm

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:12 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:46 pm

How does this argument deal with, say, Poland? Subject to genocide, occupied repeatedly through the 20th century, pillaged by both the Germans and Russians, and within 20 years or so of the end of the Cold War a first world country. Similarly Vietnam, decades of war, carpet bombed, people in reeducation camps and now stable and prosperous. Or half a hundred other examples of nations left in utter shit in the 20th century that are now successes. Africa has a set of issues all its own, its too easy to blame it on others

There's that and there's also the point that if you are going to blame the colonial power indefinitely for the state of your country then it rather defeats the purpose of gaining independence.

Can’t speak to Africa - never been. What I would say from time spent in Asia is the ‘whites ruined everything’ narrative is much much more common as a talking point among left wing diaspora in the west than it is for those in the old country

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:24 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:01 pm

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 3:57 pm White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 3:44 am

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:24 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:01 pm

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

I don't think Africa was famously homophobic before white people showed up.

epwc wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 12:52 pm And racism is still a live issue in our society:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84jzex9vk8o

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 5:31 pm The idea that Britain’s wealth was built on pillage is, whilst currently popular, historically illiterate. Britain was able to build an empire because it *was already* wealthy. Even during the imperial period it was coal that drove the engine.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:14 am It is and we still have a lot of work to do. But I’d rather be a black or Asian person in the U.K. than a black person in Asia or an Asian person in Africa, for instance.

When I lived in London far and away the most overt racism i saw was between black and Asian folk

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:48 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 5:31 pm The idea that Britain’s wealth was built on pillage is, whilst currently popular, historically illiterate. Britain was able to build an empire because it *was already* wealthy. Even during the imperial period it was coal that drove the engine.

Britain would have been relatively wealthy due to coal (as you say, the accident of high quality coal is why the industrial revolution started here) but that would have been increasingly less so without Empire as others eventually caught up. The Empire was absolutely based on pillage.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:48 amThe Empire was absolutely based on pillage.

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 3:44 am I don't think Africa was famously homophobic before white people showed up.

epwc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:10 am

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:14 am It is and we still have a lot of work to do. But I’d rather be a black or Asian person in the U.K. than a black person in Asia or an Asian person in Africa, for instance.

Me too

When I lived in London far and away the most overt racism i saw was between black and Asian folk

To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

Flockwitt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:01 pm And I thought this was a safe place to come and be angry

epwc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:10 am
To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

robmatic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:45 amThis is probably indicative.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:23 am

epwc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:10 am

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:14 am It is and we still have a lot of work to do. But I’d rather be a black or Asian person in the U.K. than a black person in Asia or an Asian person in Africa, for instance.

Me too

When I lived in London far and away the most overt racism i saw was between black and Asian folk

To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

Co-exist I think is the right way of putting it though, even if we keep being told we live in a multi-cultural society. The pubs along the South Bank and indeed through Central have demographics that have not meaningfully changed in 50 years, in a city that has changed beyond comprehension. White people socialise together in central before returning to their suburbs, asian people socialise together in other parts of town and return to suburbs where they are a plurality, black people the same etc. The central properties are owned by plutocrats and oligarchs who want nothing to do with any of the above.

Essentially, I think as you and Slick have said we do a much better job at not being an actively racist society than comparable nations. But we do it by living in parallel societies.

On inter-minority racism - the Tamil lads who are members of my cricket club say absolutely eye watering things about Pakistanis and black people without blinking an eye. As the Indian community is the largest recipient of visas and can vote on arrival this is going to be a bigger and bigger factor in our national politics.

epwc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:49 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:45 amThis is probably indicative.

Of what

epwc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:49 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:45 amThis is probably indicative.

Of what

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 3:44 am

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:24 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:01 pm

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

I don't think Africa was famously homophobic before white people showed up.

epwc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:34 am PB

Much of what you say is true but I don’t think I live in a parallel society, I fully participate.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:23 am

epwc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:10 am

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:14 am It is and we still have a lot of work to do. But I’d rather be a black or Asian person in the U.K. than a black person in Asia or an Asian person in Africa, for instance.

Me too

When I lived in London far and away the most overt racism i saw was between black and Asian folk

To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

Co-exist I think is the right way of putting it though, even if we keep being told we live in a multi-cultural society. The pubs along the South Bank and indeed through Central have demographics that have not meaningfully changed in 50 years, in a city that has changed beyond comprehension. White people socialise together in central before returning to their suburbs, asian people socialise together in other parts of town and return to suburbs where they are a plurality, black people the same etc. The central properties are owned by plutocrats and oligarchs who want nothing to do with any of the above.

Essentially, I think as you and Slick have said we do a much better job at not being an actively racist society than comparable nations. But we do it by living in parallel societies.

On inter-minority racism - the Tamil lads who are members of my cricket club say absolutely eye watering things about Pakistanis and black people without blinking an eye. As the Indian community is the largest recipient of visas and can vote on arrival this is going to be a bigger and bigger factor in our national politics.

epwc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:49 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:45 amThis is probably indicative.

Of what

Hugo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:50 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:23 am

epwc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:10 am

Me too



To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

Co-exist I think is the right way of putting it though, even if we keep being told we live in a multi-cultural society. The pubs along the South Bank and indeed through Central have demographics that have not meaningfully changed in 50 years, in a city that has changed beyond comprehension. White people socialise together in central before returning to their suburbs, asian people socialise together in other parts of town and return to suburbs where they are a plurality, black people the same etc. The central properties are owned by plutocrats and oligarchs who want nothing to do with any of the above.

Essentially, I think as you and Slick have said we do a much better job at not being an actively racist society than comparable nations. But we do it by living in parallel societies.

On inter-minority racism - the Tamil lads who are members of my cricket club say absolutely eye watering things about Pakistanis and black people without blinking an eye. As the Indian community is the largest recipient of visas and can vote on arrival this is going to be a bigger and bigger factor in our national politics.

You and Slick are spot on.

Part of the reason why Cortes was able to pull off the conquest of the Aztecs was because he allied with other Mesoamerican civilisations who had been subjugated by the Aztecs. My point being people weren't living in perfect harmony with their neighbours only for Europeans to throw a spanner in the works.

There is nothing exceptional about European empire building really other than the fact that we had superior technology in order to pull it off on a large scale. So it is with racism, we don't have a monopoly on it, it's not some western invention as some seem to believe.

petej wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 8:46 am

Hugo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:50 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:23 am

Co-exist I think is the right way of putting it though, even if we keep being told we live in a multi-cultural society. The pubs along the South Bank and indeed through Central have demographics that have not meaningfully changed in 50 years, in a city that has changed beyond comprehension. White people socialise together in central before returning to their suburbs, asian people socialise together in other parts of town and return to suburbs where they are a plurality, black people the same etc. The central properties are owned by plutocrats and oligarchs who want nothing to do with any of the above.

Essentially, I think as you and Slick have said we do a much better job at not being an actively racist society than comparable nations. But we do it by living in parallel societies.

On inter-minority racism - the Tamil lads who are members of my cricket club say absolutely eye watering things about Pakistanis and black people without blinking an eye. As the Indian community is the largest recipient of visas and can vote on arrival this is going to be a bigger and bigger factor in our national politics.

You and Slick are spot on.

Part of the reason why Cortes was able to pull off the conquest of the Aztecs was because he allied with other Mesoamerican civilisations who had been subjugated by the Aztecs. My point being people weren't living in perfect harmony with their neighbours only for Europeans to throw a spanner in the works.

There is nothing exceptional about European empire building really other than the fact that we had superior technology in order to pull it off on a large scale. So it is with racism, we don't have a monopoly on it, it's not some western invention as some seem to believe.

I suspect diseases played a significant role in devastating American populations.

In a work context the worst stuff I have heard in the last 10 years has been from a muslim Pakistani guy with those of black African descent being likened to monkeys, women can't drive, Jews secretly ruling the world and gay people should be killed. I don't think I said much back beyond you can't say that, that's not true and that is ridiculous conspiracy theory nonsense.

robmatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 1:00 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 12:43 pm
- if you are c.40 or under you have been educated and have subsequently begun a working life that is materially exceptionally different to the one experienced by boomers *even for people working at the same company*. I don’t accept that being male or white is such an advantage in this context, as it clearly was 20-30 years ago.

This generational inequality is important. Just think, a few decades ago people under the age of 40 were able to buy a house

epwc wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 1:05 pm

robmatic wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 1:00 pm a few decades ago people under the age of 40 were able to buy a house

They also didn't go on as many expensive holidays, eat out as much, pay for multiple streaming services, iphones, deliveroo, tattoos everywhere and so on....

Blackmac wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:38 pm

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 3:57 pm White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It's also very easy to ridicule and dismiss these people, and suggest they are racist and ignorant, however right wing political parties are gaining more and more traction throughout the western world because they feel so disenfranchised.

lemonhead wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:18 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:38 pm

Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 3:57 pm White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It's also very easy to ridicule and dismiss these people, and suggest they are racist and ignorant, however right wing political parties are gaining more and more traction throughout the western world because they feel so disenfranchised.

Quite a significant nub lurking in this one, to effect those parties (however dishonest, venal and self serving) freely discuss matters that the more mainstream ones won't touch.

And your point will always resonate far better in a simmering febrile vacuum than one where the conversation's out in the open air, debated in detail and mostly understood.

I used work for an elderly couple who'd moved down from Cork to run our local pub/hotel. Pleasant/harmless enough, if a touch myopic at times. Plenty in the community thought they were idiots. But the wife of the two said to me once on the subject that her daughter, a single mother with a young child struggling for years to secure council housing was finding all those newly available being allocated straight to refugees (this was around 1997 btw) and she didn't think that was right or fair to our own citizens. 'And if that makes me racist' she turns to me 'Then feck it, I suppose I'm racist'.

I'm not going to pick that apart any further except to say even then there were many thousands like her, in a very prosperous boom time of the Celtic Tiger economy mkI and everything supposedly rosy for life at large. Now how that's progressed through further immigration, integration, the fabric of society shifting, multiple financial crises, pandemic etc is anyone's guess. The pub for instance long since changed hands and after the latest owners took over they tried to run it in a depressed trading environment for a year or two before jumping at a several hundred thousand euro contract to house 40-50 Ukranian refugees in a small isolated community of 100 people. (said community has thankfully embraced them and imagine many of them will stay and raise families in the area).

But that conversation, that feeling of being marginalised by your own politicians in favour of that great, mysterious Other, who talks funny (or doesn't talk at all and mostly just stares silently at you), who keep to themselves, you'll never see them except at the supermarket or outside the jobcentre, oh there was that homeless one who was always half drunk and set fire to the local restaurant after being refused service that night etc. Are they integrating or are they just setting up their own community inside ours. And taking our jobs (while simultaneously sponging off the state at the same time) you can't get a house anymore, the community's changed, it never used to be like this, government does nothing. And so on.

Whether you agree or not there's endless material out there for people predisposed to think their way of life is under threat and things are going to shit. And in the UK for instance where there's already mass inequality between regions, public services falling to pieces, low wage growth, poor quality/quantity of jobs, housing...just don't go there. I'm frankly surprised it hasn't happened sooner. And perhaps it did. Things were tricky ten years back and we got Brexit and Trump. And since that magic bean panacea left us all even fkin worse off maybe it's just time to smash shit. Setting aside people who just want it anyway.

Life is change. Perhaps the pace/direction of travel has alienated some; feeling threatened, ignored and worried about the future - or the now. And others perhaps just don't like brown people. No ones really bothered to find out in any detail.

And more importantly, anyone ever really tried to explain that direction of travel: population, tax base, demographics, birth rates? Never mind the level of local infrastructure, support, help with integration etc. that's needed. Or have they just pointedly ignored the rather big political landmine and hope to also ignore those wanting answers.

Maybe they'll hate the answers even more than the easy ones they're opting for. Ones more global that have nothing to do with immigration, or 'woke'. But the so called minority is growing, and growing louder as times get harder. Dismissing them all as racist is not going to make them simply go away back to their own country.

Hugo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:29 am

lemonhead wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:18 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:38 pm

It's also very easy to ridicule and dismiss these people, and suggest they are racist and ignorant, however right wing political parties are gaining more and more traction throughout the western world because they feel so disenfranchised.

Quite a significant nub lurking in this one, to effect those parties (however dishonest, venal and self serving) freely discuss matters that the more mainstream ones won't touch.

And your point will always resonate far better in a simmering febrile vacuum than one where the conversation's out in the open air, debated in detail and mostly understood.

I used work for an elderly couple who'd moved down from Cork to run our local pub/hotel. Pleasant/harmless enough, if a touch myopic at times. Plenty in the community thought they were idiots. But the wife of the two said to me once on the subject that her daughter, a single mother with a young child struggling for years to secure council housing was finding all those newly available being allocated straight to refugees (this was around 1997 btw) and she didn't think that was right or fair to our own citizens. 'And if that makes me racist' she turns to me 'Then feck it, I suppose I'm racist'.

I'm not going to pick that apart any further except to say even then there were many thousands like her, in a very prosperous boom time of the Celtic Tiger economy mkI and everything supposedly rosy for life at large. Now how that's progressed through further immigration, integration, the fabric of society shifting, multiple financial crises, pandemic etc is anyone's guess. The pub for instance long since changed hands and after the latest owners took over they tried to run it in a depressed trading environment for a year or two before jumping at a several hundred thousand euro contract to house 40-50 Ukranian refugees in a small isolated community of 100 people. (said community has thankfully embraced them and imagine many of them will stay and raise families in the area).

But that conversation, that feeling of being marginalised by your own politicians in favour of that great, mysterious Other, who talks funny (or doesn't talk at all and mostly just stares silently at you), who keep to themselves, you'll never see them except at the supermarket or outside the jobcentre, oh there was that homeless one who was always half drunk and set fire to the local restaurant after being refused service that night etc. Are they integrating or are they just setting up their own community inside ours. And taking our jobs (while simultaneously sponging off the state at the same time) you can't get a house anymore, the community's changed, it never used to be like this, government does nothing. And so on.

Whether you agree or not there's endless material out there for people predisposed to think their way of life is under threat and things are going to shit. And in the UK for instance where there's already mass inequality between regions, public services falling to pieces, low wage growth, poor quality/quantity of jobs, housing...just don't go there. I'm frankly surprised it hasn't happened sooner. And perhaps it did. Things were tricky ten years back and we got Brexit and Trump. And since that magic bean panacea left us all even fkin worse off maybe it's just time to smash shit. Setting aside people who just want it anyway.

Life is change. Perhaps the pace/direction of travel has alienated some; feeling threatened, ignored and worried about the future - or the now. And others perhaps just don't like brown people. No ones really bothered to find out in any detail.

And more importantly, anyone ever really tried to explain that direction of travel: population, tax base, demographics, birth rates? Never mind the level of local infrastructure, support, help with integration etc. that's needed. Or have they just pointedly ignored the rather big political landmine and hope to also ignore those wanting answers.

Maybe they'll hate the answers even more than the easy ones they're opting for. Ones more global that have nothing to do with immigration, or 'woke'. But the so called minority is growing, and growing louder as times get harder. Dismissing them all as racist is not going to make them simply go away back to their own country.

Interesting post. Agree with what you are saying about disenfranchised communities feeling marginalised by politicians.

One of the things I have noticed over the past decade (stretching to the BLM movement and back to Brexit and the 2016 US Presidential election) is that people who are well educated and who lead relatively prosperous lives don't tend to have their finger on the pulse.

News media tend to be centered far away from the stuff going on in the provinces (be it to the American Mid West or the north of England or wherever) and so this stuff catches them unawares. Therefore, you get overly simplified analysis like Hillary lost the election due to misogyny and no real stab at getting to grips with some of the deeper underlying issues.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 11:33 am We’ve hardly mentioned class and regionalism here as specific things.

The UK will vote for a complete fucking shyster because he went to Eton and Oxbridge and has a posh voice.

A competent man with a broad Birmingham accent would never be elected Prime Minister.

This is a significant part of the disenfranchisement, that there are no ‘people like me’ in parliament or positions of leadership. Those who do come from that background have their accents knocked off them.

A functional Union movement used to be one of the things that that gave people that representation.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 11:33 am We’ve hardly mentioned class and regionalism here as specific things.

The UK will vote for a complete fucking shyster because he went to Eton and Oxbridge and has a posh voice.

A competent man with a broad Birmingham accent would never be elected Prime Minister.

This is a significant part of the disenfranchisement, that there are no ‘people like me’ in parliament or positions of leadership. Those who do come from that background have their accents knocked off them.

A functional Union movement used to be one of the things that that gave people that representation.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 11:47 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 11:33 am We’ve hardly mentioned class and regionalism here as specific things.

The UK will vote for a complete fucking shyster because he went to Eton and Oxbridge and has a posh voice.

A competent man with a broad Birmingham accent would never be elected Prime Minister.

This is a significant part of the disenfranchisement, that there are no ‘people like me’ in parliament or positions of leadership. Those who do come from that background have their accents knocked off them.

A functional Union movement used to be one of the things that that gave people that representation.

And yet with UKIP standing down, no doubt that large numbers of the #enoughisenough brigade involved in or supporting the riots voted that way! Then of course switching to the Farage/Tice "voice of the people/just like us " subsequently...