NPR

Eddie won't get the boot. This will be rationalised away by

Covid disruption
Sarries players not in form so Eddie's hamstrung in his selection
Lawes, Launchbury and Underhill injured
Marler not available
Late disruption to the squad with Malins' injury (he was better off out of it)
Massive payout if he does get fired which the RFU can't afford

At half time in that match we had run 33 metres in total (most from Sinckler) and kicked the ball away 14 times.

If even I can predict shit like this I'm sure big brain Eddie can understand it's a fucking losing strategy.

On the match thread I noted we hadn't managed a line break 50 minutes into the match.

Not going to wade through the match thread but missed the substitution. Was Ford injured?

Choc wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:28 pm Not going to wade through the match thread but missed the substitution. Was Ford injured?

He might have been, but he was playing like a drain anyway.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:30 pm

Choc wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:28 pm Not going to wade through the match thread but missed the substitution. Was Ford injured?

He might have been, but he was playing like a drain anyway.

I don’t disagree, but playing Robson at 10 for 25 minutes instead is a ridiculous decision.

Utterly clueless and depressing.

I think we may have to institute a minimum IQ level to play for England - so fed up with our players being so stupid and never learning.

It almost appears that the England team can't raise their game 2 weeks on the trot - they looked way off the pace out there today. Curry was, pretty much, the only one who looked alive and kicking.

Choc wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:32 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:30 pm

Choc wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:28 pm Not going to wade through the match thread but missed the substitution. Was Ford injured?

He might have been, but he was playing like a drain anyway.

I don’t disagree, but playing Robson at 10 for 25 minutes instead is a ridiculous decision.

It was an upgrade on Farrell !!!!

Choc wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:32 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:30 pm

Choc wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:28 pm Not going to wade through the match thread but missed the substitution. Was Ford injured?

He might have been, but he was playing like a drain anyway.

I don’t disagree, but playing Robson at 10 for 25 minutes instead is a ridiculous decision.

The plan was to play Captain Fantastic to drag us back into it, but he got his bell rung.

But England have regressed. Jones is stubborn to the point where he is picking players seemingly to spite his critics. George Martin is a perfect example. Not even a household name in his own household, at least two better backrows in Simmons and Dombrant, but Eddie picks him because fuck you, rat poison. Fair play to the lad for getting a cap but this wasn't like Martin Johnson stepping up to the Manor born. But then again, Martin is a 5.5 and Eddie has a raging hard on for players who can do a couple of positions.

As has been said, this game (and the whole 6N) has felt like Andy Robinson era shite, bang average players doing a barely adequate job, shit locks (Ewels and Hill were a massive step down in quality), poor half backs, a malfunctioning centre combo (with that massively overrated cunt Farrell as the coach's training pet), zero discipline and a full back who isn't up to the job.

I've had it with Eddie now.

Would love a change of regime, but guessing the RFU are too skint to ditch him. He's boom and bust, but the busts are getting worse.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:38 pm

Choc wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:32 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:30 pm

He might have been, but he was playing like a drain anyway.

I don’t disagree, but playing Robson at 10 for 25 minutes instead is a ridiculous decision.

The plan was to play Captain Fantastic to drag us back into it, but he got his bell rung.

Why didn’t he bring Ford back on is my point rather than play a handful of caps player who he hasn’t trusted for more than 5 minute cameos. HIA for Farrell wasn’t it?

I have completely given up on England while that cunt Jones is in charge, won't be buying tickets to Twickenham, my England shirt will be staying in the drawer. We have now regressed to Lancaster'esque levels of shiteness. Curry and Itoje are the only players who showed any pride in the shirt and the only England players who should be Lions.

My thoughts on Jones are well known here. I've been calling him a chancer for years. He's not a No.1 but he thinks he is. Huge ego, zero humility. The huge match fees that England pay give him loyalty from players keen on money but low on ability and/or form.

England have been grossly mismanaged by Jones.

ASMO wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:15 pm I have completely given up on England while that cunt Jones is in charge, won't be buying tickets to Twickenham, my England shirt will be staying in the drawer. We have now regressed to Lancaster'esque levels of shiteness. Curry and Itoje are the only players who showed any pride in the shirt and the only England players who should be Lions.

Bomber's team never finished any worse than 2nd.

Choc wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:43 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:38 pm

Choc wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:32 pm


I don’t disagree, but playing Robson at 10 for 25 minutes instead is a ridiculous decision.

The plan was to play Captain Fantastic to drag us back into it, but he got his bell rung.

Why didn’t he bring Ford back on is my point rather than play a handful of caps player who he hasn’t trusted for more than 5 minute cameos. HIA for Farrell wasn’t it?

Well Ford was playing like a a lad whose form has been destroyed by his coach, so Robson was probably the better choice. Which in a way says everything about Eddie, his selections are so horrific that you end up relying on injuries and hail Marys to improve a colossally flawed game plan that insists on itself against all evidence.

The vunipolae, Farrell, Young's and Daly need a long time away from the team, possibly forever. And Eddie Jones is a spoofer who needs sacking now, because he's taking a talented pool of players and destroying them.

Welcome on board Braz

ASMO wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:43 pm Welcome on board Braz

It’s a solid opening salvo.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:32 pm

ASMO wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:15 pm I have completely given up on England while that cunt Jones is in charge, won't be buying tickets to Twickenham, my England shirt will be staying in the drawer. We have now regressed to Lancaster'esque levels of shiteness. Curry and Itoje are the only players who showed any pride in the shirt and the only England players who should be Lions.

Bomber's team never finished any worse than 2nd.

But never won anything either. Lancaster was a loser who wasted four years and humiliated us at our own world cup.

This 6N has been completely unacceptable. We see from the France game what we can do - that we can be one of the best teams in the world, but then we regressed to being utterly pumped by a clinical but largely average Irish team.

I’m happy to write off the Wales game given the joke reffing, but the Scotland and Ireland games were some of the worst performances in years. Things need to change

I thought Ford had a thigh injury and limped off?

I will absolutely take not winning the 6 Nations, but maintaining an 80% win ratio over the title and 5th place. New Zealand didn't win a World Cup for ages, but were still the number 1 team in the world because a high win rate overall matters. People remember teams that keep winning games. Bomber did what he needed to do, he raised English rugby out of the dumps, got us winning more games and scoring more points than any coach since Woodward - we were playing rugby again. He's far too maligned by those fixated on tin cups.

Eddie's now turning us into Wales - a middling side that goes boom or bust with results.

My point is more that I don’t see it as an either/or. We shouldn’t finish fifth and we shouldn’t go years without winning the title.

Anyway, who would be in the mix to take over from Eddie do we think? I’m assuming Baxter is a no

That's fair and more measured than Lancaster is a loser.

We're stuck with Eddie 'til after the next World Cup unless something happens whereby the RFU can dismiss him without paying out the rest of his contract.

There's also not a lot of obvious options out there.

I don't think there's anyone English in the frame. If they can afford to outbid Steve Lansdown the RFU might eye up Pat Lam, but he hasn't won anything yet nor does he have international experience.

Gatland?

Guys - made the same points after the Scottish game but here they are again:

- Makko Vunipola - not fit and a dodgy scrummager who got owned by Furlong
- Billy Vunipola - a one trick pony who is also not fit and offered nothing
- Neither Genge nor Sinclair are as good a scrummager as they think they are, both got done over
- Ewels is not good enough
- Wilson is an average 6 at best
- Is Youngs the best 9 you have
- Farrell chokes your midfield
- Daly isn't good enough to play 15

I can't understand why Jones doesn't play the likes of Smith or Simmons at 10 or Simmons or Dombrandt at 8, etc. I can't understand why you keep endlessly and badly kick the ball away all the time. Why do you have a midfield 10-12-13 who can't play together. Why have a back row with so little speed and mobility - Curry was having to do the work of 2 guys there. You have more than enough talent and young players in the premiership to field a better team than this!

Sinckler got done at one scrum and did them at two, so...

Ewels is up there as most anonymous England player of recent times

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:29 am Sinckler got done at one scrum and did them at two, so...

I was thinking of the time in the game where England won a free kick in front of their own posts and he confidently called for scrum and then they got done over and conceded a penalty giving Ireland an easy 3 points. I'm not saying he isn't a decent scrummager but just not as good as he thinks he is ... as Furlong, who was breathing out of his arse at that point, showed him. My point is both he and Genge are average scrummagers at international level.

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:27 am Guys - made the same points after the Scottish game but here they are again:

- Makko Vunipola - not fit and a dodgy scrummager who got owned by Furlong Yes
- Billy Vunipola - a one trick pony who is also not fit and offered nothingYes
- Neither Genge nor Sinclair are as good a scrummager as they think they are, both got done over Sinkler's fine
- Ewels is not good enoughYes
- Wilson is an average 6 at best Yes
- Is Youngs the best 9 you haveNo, no, no
- Farrell chokes your midfield Yes
- Daly isn't good enough to play 15 Yes

I can't understand why Jones doesn't play the likes of Smith or Simmons at 10 or Simmons or Dombrandt at 8, etc. I can't understand why you keep endlessly and badly kick the ball away all the time. Why do you have a midfield 10-12-13 who can't play together. Why have a back row with so little speed and mobility - Curry was having to do the work of 2 guys there. You have more than enough talent and young players in the premiership to field a better team than this!

Nor can we!!!!

Christ I’d blanked that out. Scrums are such a lottery, why you’d call one out of choice...

Playing Smith/Simmonds instead of Ford is not going to be a massive step up. Ford is not the problem. I'd definitely have Smith on the bench though.

Watched the 2nd half of Wasps Falcons. Barbeary is the Mike Brown of forwards, players just seem to fall off of him, even when he's not moving.

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:37 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:29 am Sinckler got done at one scrum and did them at two, so...

I was thinking of the time in the game where England won a free kick in front of their own posts and he confidently called for scrum and then they got done over and conceded a penalty giving Ireland an easy 3 points. I'm not saying he isn't a decent scrummager but just not as good as he thinks he is ... as Furlong, who was breathing out of his arse at that point, showed him. My point is both he and Genge are average scrummagers at international level.

Furlong was scrummaging against Mako, though.

Was that the set of scrums where there was a reset when we butchered them, only for them to get the penalty at the next one?

I think Sinckler is a pretty powerful scrummager who is likely to get better. He certainly hasn't been a problem for us in the scrum (every prop will lose one occasionally) and it's a strange thing to attack him for. Every prop thinks he's a great scrummager. Perhaps the ire should be aimed at Mako, who despite his vast experience and bulk is still a liability far too often.

Remember that Eddie grinds players into dust so anyone who isn't fully on board with his soul destroying bullshit will not thrive in the toxic environment he creates. And he's already told the incredibly successful and remarkable Sam Simmonds that there's no room for him in the "5th place in the six nations" losing Eddie game plan.

Eddie would need to change himself as much as he changes the team in order for these outstanding young players to succeed. I have no faith in that happening. We've already seen Ben Earl struggle in that environment.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:52 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:37 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:29 am Sinckler got done at one scrum and did them at two, so...

I was thinking of the time in the game where England won a free kick in front of their own posts and he confidently called for scrum and then they got done over and conceded a penalty giving Ireland an easy 3 points. I'm not saying he isn't a decent scrummager but just not as good as he thinks he is ... as Furlong, who was breathing out of his arse at that point, showed him. My point is both he and Genge are average scrummagers at international level.

Furlong was scrummaging against Mako, though.

Was that the set of scrums where there was a reset when we butchered them, only for them to get the penalty at the next one?

I think Sinckler is a pretty powerful scrummager who is likely to get better. He certainly hasn't been a problem for us in the scrum (every prop will lose one occasionally) and it's a strange thing to attack him for. Every prop thinks he's a great scrummager. Perhaps the ire should be aimed at Mako, who despite his vast experience and bulk is still a liability far too often.

Ref gave a free kick for early engagement I think (could be wrong) and England chose to reset scrum rather than kick - about 30m from own line in middle of the pitch. I know Sinkler wasn't directly against Furlong but I was making the comparison between the two, Furlong is a top class scrummager, Sinkler isn't at the same level even if he thinks he is! I'm not attacking him just pointing out he isn't as good as he thinks he is, as was demonstrated in the example above. He is an average international TH scrummager. I do agree that Makko is poor scrummager and if he is not fit and doing the work around the pitch, which he wasn't, then he becomes a liability in the scrums with no other positive, hence being subbed at half time.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:52 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:37 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:29 am Sinckler got done at one scrum and did them at two, so...

I was thinking of the time in the game where England won a free kick in front of their own posts and he confidently called for scrum and then they got done over and conceded a penalty giving Ireland an easy 3 points. I'm not saying he isn't a decent scrummager but just not as good as he thinks he is ... as Furlong, who was breathing out of his arse at that point, showed him. My point is both he and Genge are average scrummagers at international level.

Furlong was scrummaging against Mako, though.

Was that the set of scrums where there was a reset when we butchered them, only for them to get the penalty at the next one?

I think Sinckler is a pretty powerful scrummager who is likely to get better. He certainly hasn't been a problem for us in the scrum (every prop will lose one occasionally) and it's a strange thing to attack him for. Every prop thinks he's a great scrummager. Perhaps the ire should be aimed at Mako, who despite his vast experience and bulk is still a liability far too often.

Yes, I can’t criticise Sinkler, decent scrummager who is just going to get better and a really terrific player- and good bloke it seems.

Genge seems to be a right twat however

I have said it before, but I think injuries played some part. We lost our first choice 6 (Underhill), his replacement (Willis), our first choice locks who compete to play 5 (Launchbury and Lawes) and Marler sat out the tournament, which would have a big effect, even without the problems caused by rusty Sarries players (not their fault).

However, if we truly are in a transition period then that doesn't excuse first turning back to Lawes at 6 (who has proven time and again that he isn't a Test flanker), then Wilson (earnest but bang average) and not looking to bring through a young player. George Martin was a ridiculous pick, he may have promise but has done the square roof of fuck all to deserve a call up, let alone a cap.

Credit for starting and then (but for injury) sticking with Malins who looks promising.

Zero credit for fucking over Lawrence and Odogwu and persisting with Youngs and again giving Farrell the 10 shirt.

Sorry dpedin but have you seen Furlong since the last Lions tour? He's been done at international level more often than Sinks. Even by England.

You're just looking for a reason to criticise a player you don't like.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:40 am Sorry dpedin but have you seen Furlong since the last Lions tour? He's been done at international level more often than Sinks. Even by England.

You're just looking for a reason to criticise a player you don't like.

They will both be Lions selections
Furlong has done well to get back to something like his best after such a long lay off

There's also always the question of whoyou replace them with. Sink is our best tighthead without question. Mako has weaknesses in the scrum but normally does ok with good locks. Outside of the scrum he's a beast with an insane workrate.

Genge is 26 so young in international prop terms and well worth investing in.

Farrell at 12 is less and less of an issue as he carries more in games. But FFS doesn't work as a combo. I want to see more of Lawrence at 13 but he has work to do to hold it over other potentials.

I'm not fussed on Genge. He's not really getting a lot better and isn't good enough to carry the aggro. Marler still our best LH, but obviously less likely to be a long term option.

Sinkler is fine. I actually don't mind Ewels as 4th/5th choice locks go, but there are clearly much better options. Hill on the other hand is one that is clearly helped massively by playing for that Exeter team. Not up to much at all.

Sale v LI teams for today (3pm)