NPR

Brown has never struck me as a contract fluffer, I don't think it's in his nature to play anything other than the best he can, even if his form is shite at that time.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:45 pm Brown has never struck me as a contract fluffer, I don't think it's in his nature to play anything other than the best he can, even if his form is shite at that time.

I don't think Raggs meant it like that. Deciding whether to stay or go can be immensely stressful.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:51 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:45 pm Brown has never struck me as a contract fluffer, I don't think it's in his nature to play anything other than the best he can, even if his form is shite at that time.

I don't think Raggs meant it like that. Deciding whether to stay or go can be immensely stressful.

That's what i meant jm. Can't imagine him giving anything less than 100% but state of mind can have an effect.

Raggs wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:33 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:51 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:45 pm Brown has never struck me as a contract fluffer, I don't think it's in his nature to play anything other than the best he can, even if his form is shite at that time.

I don't think Raggs meant it like that. Deciding whether to stay or go can be immensely stressful.

That's what i meant jm. Can't imagine him giving anything less than 100% but state of mind can have an effect.

Aye. I know of a player who lost several stone during contract negotiations with another club.

Maybe I should enter some contract negotiations with a club.

notfatcat wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:50 pm Maybe I should enter some contract negotiations with a club.

Just order takeout from the place the environmental health guys close most often !

Don't do this during a toilet paper shortage though.

Brown tells all

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -club.html

Edit - He seems to have been more shocked that a 35 yo outside back would usually be to learn that he was not being renewed.

Fucking Gustard.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:06 pm Brown tells all

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -club.html

Edit - He seems to have been more shocked that a 35 yo outside back would usually be to learn that he was not being renewed.

I think it's reasonable to expect the end of an 18 year career to happen with a bit more than a five minute chat with the toxic arsehole dragging the club down. And let's be honest, most players like that get to choose the manner of their departure.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:52 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:06 pm Brown tells all

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -club.html

Edit - He seems to have been more shocked that a 35 yo outside back would usually be to learn that he was not being renewed.

I think it's reasonable to expect the end of an 18 year career to happen with a bit more than a five minute chat with the toxic arsehole dragging the club down. And let's be honest, most players like that get to choose the manner of their departure.

Sure, it's clearly been handled incredibly badly for it to end like this. See Marler is now calling the head of recruitment there a bastard on twitter. At least I assume that's the purpose of the cryptic hashtag.

And sure on the manner of departure piece too. But take all that away, he still seems very surprised that there was any possibility of him not having a contract next season there.

Well yeah, I doubt it had ever come up before.

I think the bottom line is that Covid is putting immense pressure on clubs finances; & that Brown is a Senior player, no longer in the National setup; & so is now a luxury.

There are plenty of players that coaches would rather keep; but they can't keep; & stay within their budgets.

I think the Top14 sides will have a lot of scrutiny of their budgets, on the Fair Play rules next year; because they seem to be buying a lot of players, that other sides can't afford to keep.

That doesn't excuse a 4 minute meeting to tell Brown no thanks and ta ta. I suspect Brown would have stayed at Quins on a much reduced salary, after all from what Haskell has said it seems to be the norm for players right at the end of their career.

Would it have been more acceptable if Quins terminated Brown's tenure via a 15-minute meeting rather than a 4-minute one? Or stretched it out to a full half-hour? He says he'd been chasing them up for details on a new contract for a while before he got the news, you'd have thought the penny might have dropped before he started the meeting to be honest.

By its nature, professional sport is ruthless towards the cattle, but throwing out someone like that tends to be a luxury afforded to a coach with some track record of success behind them. Or any track record at all. And if you decide to do it, then you had better deliver, and Gustard failed to deliver in a comprehensive fashion.

5 minutes is the absolute minimum for contract meetings. Everyone knows that.

Have to say I felt very sorry for Brown reading that.
Length of the meeting is irrelevant, canning a one club man out the blue is the part that’s very poor about it.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:12 am Have to say I felt very sorry for Brown reading that.
Length of the meeting is irrelevant, canning a one club man out the blue is the part that’s very poor about it.

How are you supposed to do it not out of the blue without being accused of not being straight up and honest?

I'm not saying how it was handled was correct, but there's only so long you can spend saying " We're not offering you a contract for next season.".

I totally understand why he is sore about this but also agree the length of the meeting is really irrelevant. Either they wanted him or they didn't not sure how they stretch that out beyond a few sentences.

As an aside I am surpised he handled all the negotiations himself - surely this is what agents are for?

As I understand it, agents are there to earn commission for themselves. That certainly seems to be the case in football.

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:29 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:12 am Have to say I felt very sorry for Brown reading that.
Length of the meeting is irrelevant, canning a one club man out the blue is the part that’s very poor about it.

How are you supposed to do it not out of the blue without being accused of not being straight up and honest?

I'm not saying how it was handled was correct, but there's only so long you can spend saying " We're not offering you a contract for next season.".

You have a conversation over a period of time with some back and forth. It's a negotiation. Or at least, it's supposed to be, especially when you're talking about a club legend and there's room for leeway on both sides.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:03 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:29 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:12 am Have to say I felt very sorry for Brown reading that.
Length of the meeting is irrelevant, canning a one club man out the blue is the part that’s very poor about it.

How are you supposed to do it not out of the blue without being accused of not being straight up and honest?

I'm not saying how it was handled was correct, but there's only so long you can spend saying " We're not offering you a contract for next season.".

You have a conversation over a period of time with some back and forth. It's a negotiation. Or at least, it's supposed to be, especially when you're talking about a club legend and there's room for leeway on both sides.

Why is it supposed to be a negotiation? If they'd budgeted already, and there wasn't anything (or only a tiny bit) left for the player, then what's there to negotiate? Would they rather their club umm and errr for months, whilst opportunities elsewhere get picked up by other players who aren't being strung along?

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:09 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:03 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:29 am

How are you supposed to do it not out of the blue without being accused of not being straight up and honest?

I'm not saying how it was handled was correct, but there's only so long you can spend saying " We're not offering you a contract for next season.".

You have a conversation over a period of time with some back and forth. It's a negotiation. Or at least, it's supposed to be, especially when you're talking about a club legend and there's room for leeway on both sides.

Why is it supposed to be a negotiation? If they'd budgeted already, and there wasn't anything (or only a tiny bit) left for the player, then what's there to negotiate? Would they rather their club umm and errr for months, whilst opportunities elsewhere get picked up by other players who aren't being strung along?

I don't know what to tell you. This is how it frequently works, particularly with senior players. It's not supposed to be a completely one sided thing where the club unilaterally decides to bin off a senior player with no warning or inclination it's going to happen.

And aren't teams restricted from when they're allowed to sign players? That gives teams the chance to have those negotiations.

We've frequently heard from head coaches / DoRs talking about the conversations they have with senior players about their final stages of their careers.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:19 pmI don't know what to tell you. This is how it frequently works, particularly with senior players. It's not supposed to be a completely one sided thing where the club unilaterally decides to bin off a senior player with no warning or inclination it's going to happen.

And aren't teams restricted from when they're allowed to sign players? That gives teams the chance to have those negotiations.

We've frequently heard from head coaches / DoRs talking about the conversations they have with senior players about their final stages of their careers.

I mean, I get that for players that you may or may not want to keep, but if you've decided to drop a player because you simply don't want them any more, what's the discussion to be had?

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:22 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:19 pmI don't know what to tell you. This is how it frequently works, particularly with senior players. It's not supposed to be a completely one sided thing where the club unilaterally decides to bin off a senior player with no warning or inclination it's going to happen.

And aren't teams restricted from when they're allowed to sign players? That gives teams the chance to have those negotiations.

We've frequently heard from head coaches / DoRs talking about the conversations they have with senior players about their final stages of their careers.

I mean, I get that for players that you may or may not want to keep, but if you've decided to drop a player because you simply don't want them any more, what's the discussion to be had?

What you don't do is make the player think it's not an option being considered and then spring it on them, when they've been there for 18 years.

They could have discussed the possibility with him over the summer. They could have discussed the possibility with him in the weeks they spent not talking to him about a new contract. This is what other teams do. Leaving it to the last minute and making it a huge surprise is a total dick move.

And it says everything that the club changed their minds. It's incredibly rare for a team to just bin off a player of that stature within the club without there being some mutual back and forth. They didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:30 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:22 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:19 pmI don't know what to tell you. This is how it frequently works, particularly with senior players. It's not supposed to be a completely one sided thing where the club unilaterally decides to bin off a senior player with no warning or inclination it's going to happen.

And aren't teams restricted from when they're allowed to sign players? That gives teams the chance to have those negotiations.

We've frequently heard from head coaches / DoRs talking about the conversations they have with senior players about their final stages of their careers.

I mean, I get that for players that you may or may not want to keep, but if you've decided to drop a player because you simply don't want them any more, what's the discussion to be had?

What you don't do is make the player think it's not an option being considered and then spring it on them, when they've been there for 18 years.

They could have discussed the possibility with him over the summer. They could have discussed the possibility with him in the weeks they spent not talking to him about a new contract. This is what other teams do. Leaving it to the last minute and making it a huge surprise is a total dick move.

And it says everything that the club changed their minds. It's incredibly rare for a team to just bin off a player of that stature within the club without there being some mutual back and forth. They didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

He was told in December, and the season started in November, that's a long way from leaving it last minute. When Gustard was in charge, it clearly wasn't an option being considered. That things change after the DOR is fired shouldn't enter into the discussion held before he's gone otherwise nothing would get done.

Er. December is last minute given when players get signed. It's very last minute for a person with an 18 year career at the club.

I have no idea what you mean with the rest of the post. Gustard made the decision. The club changed their minds a week or so ago.

Take your point about his length of service etc. But generally speaking, December really isn't last minute for confirming that you aren't being renewed. Gives you six months or so to talk to other clubs starting in Jan.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:57 pm Take your point about his length of service etc. But December really isn't last minute for confirming that you aren't being renewed. Gives you six months or so to talk to other clubs starting in Jan.

The vast majority of recruitment is done and dusted in January. Clubs wait to announce it for season ticket reasons, but it's not a drawn out process.

And to be clear, if there's been absolutely no inkling from the club up to that point that they don't want him any more, it's definitely last minute.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:59 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:57 pm Take your point about his length of service etc. But December really isn't last minute for confirming that you aren't being renewed. Gives you six months or so to talk to other clubs starting in Jan.

The vast majority of recruitment is done and dusted in January. Clubs wait to announce it for season ticket reasons, but it's not a drawn out process.

Perhaps big ticket signings from overseas, but the vast majority of domestic recruitment isn't sorted by the start of Jan.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:01 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:59 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:57 pm Take your point about his length of service etc. But December really isn't last minute for confirming that you aren't being renewed. Gives you six months or so to talk to other clubs starting in Jan.

The vast majority of recruitment is done and dusted in January. Clubs wait to announce it for season ticket reasons, but it's not a drawn out process.

Perhaps big ticket signings from overseas, but the vast majority of domestic recruitment isn't sorted by the start of Jan.

I didn't say the start of January.

Then I don't see how being told in December is last minute.

Plenty of lesser players get strung along for months towards the end of the season whilst decisions are made. He was good to go to commence negotiations with other clubs as soon as it was officially allowed and seemed to get a gig without too much bother.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:05 pm Then I don't see how being told in December is last minute.

Plenty of lesser players get strung along for months towards the end of the season whilst decisions are made. He was good to go to commence negotiations with other clubs as soon as it was officially allowed and seemed to get a gig without too much bother.

Again, it's pretty fucking last minute when a) you've been talking with the club about a contract renewal, b) you've been there for 18 years, the majority of which you've been clear first choice including this season, have a house and a family, c) are a bona fide club legend with a reasonable expectation that someone might have mentioned the possibility of the club not looking at renewing for another season / that there might be some negotiation over how the final season(s) of his career with the club might play out, and d) there's a few weeks including Christmas before everyone officially signs for the clubs they've unofficially been talking to for months. You can chuck in e), which is that there's never been an obvious replacement for him in the squad, either: the step down from him to Morris or Lynagh or Green as fullback (regardless of ability on the wing) is huge.

It's not the very last second. And I'm also not saying there weren't reasons why Quins might have thought it was time to move on. But in context, it's an incredibly shitty way to treat him and handled in a way that reflects extraordinarily badly on the club.

I assume talking to the club about a renewal, was him or his agent giving them a nudge and them saying they are figuring things out.

But yeah, clearly they fucked it all up for it to have ended up this acrimoniously and the communication was clearly non existent. And sure it shouldn't have come as a complete surprise to him that not being renewed was at least a possibility. But I'd still say it's a touch naive of him to not have considered it.

It reflects really badly on Quins, i think the fans will make their feelings known as Brown is genuinely loved by them.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:24 pm I assume talking to the club about a renewal, was him or his agent giving them a nudge and them saying they are figuring things out.

But yeah, clearly they fucked it all up for it to have ended up this acrimoniously and the communication was clearly non existent. And sure it shouldn't have come as a complete surprise to him that not being renewed was at least a possibility. But I'd still say it's a touch naive of him to not have considered it.

All I can do is refer back to the times when head coaches & DoRs have openly discussed with the media the conversations they have over time with the club stalwarts about what the end of their careers looks like. Steenson, Barritt, Brits, Monye - it's always really clear that it's a two-way conversation over a period of time. In the total absence of any comments from the club that they might not want him any more, of course he wouldn't consider it. With players who've come to embody the club it does work differently!

It's difficult to form a valid conclusion when you only have one side of the story. I understand that Brown is disappointed as he's been with the club years but the article does suggest to me that Brown was, at best, a little naive and at worst, slow to get the message.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:27 pm It's difficult to form a valid conclusion when you only have one side of the story. I understand that Brown is disappointed as he's been with the club years but the article does suggest to me that Brown was, at best, a little naive and at worst, slow to get the message.

It appears to have been handled badly - but maybe there is no good way to deal with such situations - and, I'd guess that Mike is not the easiest person to have such conversations with - he can be a bit 'strident'. Nonetheless, they definitely should have made much greater efforts with a legend of the club - even if it meant dragging the process out a bit.

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:54 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:27 pm It's difficult to form a valid conclusion when you only have one side of the story. I understand that Brown is disappointed as he's been with the club years but the article does suggest to me that Brown was, at best, a little naive and at worst, slow to get the message.

It appears to have been handled badly - but maybe there is no good way to deal with such situations - and, I'd guess that Mike is not the easiest person to have such conversations with - he can be a bit 'strident'. Nonetheless, they definitely should have made much greater efforts with a legend of the club - even if it meant dragging the process out a bit.

If you looked at a list of the greatest retired rugby players of all time then I doubt many of them will have had the 'romantic' or perfect ending to their careers. Most will have fizzled out either on the bench or in the physio room. The difference is that they don't write an article about it in a national tabloid.

And Mike Brown, when he finally retires, will not get anywhere near this list. He might be regarded as a great at Harlequins - and good on him for that - but beyond the Chertsey Road, not so much.

Regardless of your personal feelings on the guy, England's most-capped fullback is well loved by a huge number of England fans.