European Rugby Thread
-
- Posts: 8664
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:48 am
We can end up with certain positions where far too many of the starters are foreign players all at the same time which can result in a real positional shortage. Until recently we struggled with back rowers, but tighthead's looking fairly patchy.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:24 pm What does amaze me, and please don't think this is a dig because it's not meant that way, it's a genuine "how the fuck is that?" type thing.
England do struggle to produce quality scrum halves from 12 or 13 teams and however many players. I don't mean Phil Vickery, Wilkinson, Johno or Jason Robinson quality in their positions, ie World XV conversation material, I mean, well, really good scrum halves.
Starting with Spencer and Robson and then going onto Randall, Mitchell, Quirke and van Portvliet we've probably got the best crop of scrum halves in a long while. Eddie seems determined to get Youngs to 150 caps, though.
Back to the numbers thing, there is no chance of Scotland as it stands producing enough players for three decent pro teams, even if the money was there.
One of the big issues, apart from sheer numbers, is the lumpiness of the player flow. Over the last few years Scotland on its own has not produced even one team's worth of props, whilst producing a glut in the back row.
Right now, there are enough good backrowers in the two teams that proper potential internationals are not getting game time. On the other hand, the SRU looked down the line and could not see where the props were coming from. So they went out to find some. As a result, between them, Edinburgh and Glasgow have 17 props. Only 4 are of Scottish origin, 5 are from SA, 3 NZ, and one each from Argentina, Aus and England. There is of course Sutherland at Worcester and Hislop at Wasps.
.
I've just seen a list of Scottish Exiles, it contains two full 23s plus a couple of outliers. Some positions are quite strong (Redpath, Scott, Harris, Hutchinson) others are not quite at that standard.
Plus Finn in France, bien sur
There seems to be a body of English fans almost entirely focussed on their club and the Prem which forms their rugby horizons. The only time they notice rugby outside England it is when their club plays one from another country. Can't fault them for that.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:53 pmSure - I'm just surprised that Falcons fans didn't believe it would be that way round in another country!
Thinking about it, it's pretty rare for Newcastle players to be showing up in England squads, so I guess it makes more sense than at first glance.weegie01 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:58 pmThere seems to be a body of English fans almost entirely focussed on their club and the Prem which forms their rugby horizons. The only time they notice rugby outside England it is when their club plays one from another country. Can't fault them for that.
I used to sit next to people at Quins who didn't care about internationals at all, just club rugby. They're the minority, I think, but they do exist.
Last edited by JM2K6 on Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Uncle fester
- Posts: 4192
- Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:42 pm
What's the priority for Scottish fans?weegie01 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:58 pmThere seems to be a body of English fans almost entirely focussed on their club and the Prem which forms their rugby horizons. The only time they notice rugby outside England it is when their club plays one from another country. Can't fault them for that.
For Ireland and despite our innate ability to fight with ourselves inside a phone box, it's generally green first, everything else after.
I think most of us now recognise that we won't have a successful national side without successful club sides.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:05 pmWhat's the priority for Scottish fans?
For Ireland and despite our innate ability to fight with ourselves inside a phone box, it's generally green first, everything else after.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
No headdresses or chanting for Chiefs fans in Glasgow at the weekend!
I'm sure that the hordes travelling North from Devon will comply!!!
I'm sure that the hordes travelling North from Devon will comply!!!
Glasgow Warriors have taken a stance against the presence of Native American headdresses and the chanting of the “Tomahawk Chop” from Exeter Chiefs fans ahead of this weekend’s Champions Cup clash at Scotstoun.
The use of the headdress has been a contentious issue in the game throughout the year, with Premiership rivals Wasps calling for a ban of it at matches.
Exeter head coach Rob Baxter was quoted as recently as October by the Guardian as saying that the conversation was a “bit of a non-story” and left it to the club to decide whether to keep the headwear.
While fans are still able to wear the headdress and chant the Tomahawk Chop at Sandy Park, Glasgow has taken it into their own hands to request that neither be present this weekend.
In an open letter from former player and current Managing Director, Al Kellock, the club said that it had taken the decision following consultation with a working group comprised of Native American community members.
Meh, I don’t really care about pro club rugby. National team and amateur, although I agree with your premiseBiffer wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:07 pmI think most of us now recognise that we won't have a successful national side without successful club sides.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:05 pmWhat's the priority for Scottish fans?
For Ireland and despite our innate ability to fight with ourselves inside a phone box, it's generally green first, everything else after.
In saying that I am beginning to get more on board with the pro clubs but it’s a struggle
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
- Torquemada 1420
- Posts: 11155
- Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 am
- Location: Hut 8
Hard to fathom. Not likeTichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:24 pm What does amaze me, and please don't think this is a dig because it's not meant that way, it's a genuine "how the fuck is that?" type thing.
England do struggle to produce quality scrum halves from 12 or 13 teams and however many players. I don't mean Phil Vickery, Wilkinson, Johno or Jason Robinson quality in their positions, ie World XV conversation material, I mean, well, really good scrum halves.
- Fra never producing FHs or SHs who had a quick pass. That's because SH's traditionally ran the game rather than 10 and the latter because turgid, fwd dominated rugby meant backs never needed to see the ball.
- Aus having sh*t front rows because they never gave it any attention once the Soup era started.
- Torquemada 1420
- Posts: 11155
- Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 am
- Location: Hut 8
Unless you sacrifice the clubs for the ntl side a la Wales..... which can work for a short time but now expect a whole generation of mediocrity as the price.
- Hellraiser
- Posts: 2089
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:46 am
Toulon got around the problem a few years ago by just having two international front fives in the 23.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:16 pmIt's always been the best tactic for the non-French sides; against their fatties. Run them until they start flagging; & if you're still within 10 pts, or so; you can still win.
There's still that gap in the fitness in the French sides; & the rest of the NH; & it's dumb not to exploit that.
Ceterum censeo delendam esse Muscovia
- Hellraiser
- Posts: 2089
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:46 am
An Irish 4th XV is an interesting thought experiment. It'll give it a lash.Slick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:04 pm I suppose another way of looking at is the 1XV squad of E, I, S and W are broadly competitive.
The 2nd XV’s would be similar with Scotland and Wales maybe struggling a bit
3rd XV and Scotland are ringing round Friday night to see if they can raise a team and Wales also drop off a fair bit
Scotland don’t have a 4th XV, Wales don’t either, England and Ireland probably still fairy level
8. JOD
6. Paul Boyle
7. Dan Leavy
5. Ultan Dillane
4. Fineen Wycherley
3. John Ryan
2. Dave Heffernan
1. Jack McGrath
9. John Cooney
10. Jack Carty
11. Mack Hansen
12. Rory Scannell
13. James Hume
14. Shane Daly
15. Mike Haley
Ceterum censeo delendam esse Muscovia
Saw that on twitter and one fan, who got a bunch of likes, was so desperate to have his racist cosplay and inoffensive, tribe non-specific chant that he said ALL Exeter fans must turn up with feathered headdresses to make their point.SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:39 pm No headdresses or chanting for Chiefs fans in Glasgow at the weekend!
I'm sure that the hordes travelling North from Devon will comply!!!Glasgow Warriors have taken a stance against the presence of Native American headdresses and the chanting of the “Tomahawk Chop” from Exeter Chiefs fans ahead of this weekend’s Champions Cup clash at Scotstoun.
The use of the headdress has been a contentious issue in the game throughout the year, with Premiership rivals Wasps calling for a ban of it at matches.
Exeter head coach Rob Baxter was quoted as recently as October by the Guardian as saying that the conversation was a “bit of a non-story” and left it to the club to decide whether to keep the headwear.
While fans are still able to wear the headdress and chant the Tomahawk Chop at Sandy Park, Glasgow has taken it into their own hands to request that neither be present this weekend.
In an open letter from former player and current Managing Director, Al Kellock, the club said that it had taken the decision following consultation with a working group comprised of Native American community members.
That's Sarries done in Europe this season
They've forfeited their match in Pau due to a mass Covid outbreak.
They've forfeited their match in Pau due to a mass Covid outbreak.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... inst-pauSaracens have been forced to forfeit Saturday’s European Challenge Cup fixture against Pau due to a significant Covid-19 outbreak, leaving Mark McCall’s side struggling to qualify from their pool.
The north London club has closed its training ground and all players and support staff have been isolated following the outbreak. With a number of close contacts also identified and factoring in injuries, Saracens, who lost last weekend’s European opener against Edinburgh, said they were unable to field a 23-man squad against Pau, who have been awarded a 28-0 victory.
It's hard to figure out what their point is at this stage other than 'I want the right to be a racist arsehole'.Niegs wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:34 amSaw that on twitter and one fan, who got a bunch of likes, was so desperate to have his racist cosplay and inoffensive, tribe non-specific chant that he said ALL Exeter fans must turn up with feathered headdresses to make their point.SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:39 pm No headdresses or chanting for Chiefs fans in Glasgow at the weekend!
I'm sure that the hordes travelling North from Devon will comply!!!Glasgow Warriors have taken a stance against the presence of Native American headdresses and the chanting of the “Tomahawk Chop” from Exeter Chiefs fans ahead of this weekend’s Champions Cup clash at Scotstoun.
The use of the headdress has been a contentious issue in the game throughout the year, with Premiership rivals Wasps calling for a ban of it at matches.
Exeter head coach Rob Baxter was quoted as recently as October by the Guardian as saying that the conversation was a “bit of a non-story” and left it to the club to decide whether to keep the headwear.
While fans are still able to wear the headdress and chant the Tomahawk Chop at Sandy Park, Glasgow has taken it into their own hands to request that neither be present this weekend.
In an open letter from former player and current Managing Director, Al Kellock, the club said that it had taken the decision following consultation with a working group comprised of Native American community members.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Bugger.SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:39 pm That's Sarries done in Europe this season
They've forfeited their match in Pau due to a mass Covid outbreak.https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... inst-pauSaracens have been forced to forfeit Saturday’s European Challenge Cup fixture against Pau due to a significant Covid-19 outbreak, leaving Mark McCall’s side struggling to qualify from their pool.
The north London club has closed its training ground and all players and support staff have been isolated following the outbreak. With a number of close contacts also identified and factoring in injuries, Saracens, who lost last weekend’s European opener against Edinburgh, said they were unable to field a 23-man squad against Pau, who have been awarded a 28-0 victory.
With Edinburgh having beaten Saracens it looked like that gave them an advantage. Saracens forfeiting this may invigorate other challenges.
- Torquemada 1420
- Posts: 11155
- Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 am
- Location: Hut 8
I doubt Sarries will be crying over the opportunity to rest having blown it anyway against Ed.SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:39 pm That's Sarries done in Europe this season
They've forfeited their match in Pau due to a mass Covid outbreak.https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... inst-pauSaracens have been forced to forfeit Saturday’s European Challenge Cup fixture against Pau due to a significant Covid-19 outbreak, leaving Mark McCall’s side struggling to qualify from their pool.
The north London club has closed its training ground and all players and support staff have been isolated following the outbreak. With a number of close contacts also identified and factoring in injuries, Saracens, who lost last weekend’s European opener against Edinburgh, said they were unable to field a 23-man squad against Pau, who have been awarded a 28-0 victory.
Closest Pau will ever get again to a 28pt victory in Europe.
I dunno, top 3 in the group go through, the French aren't interested and Saracens have lost 2 already. I don't think Edinburgh need to worry too much.weegie01 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:35 pmBugger.SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:39 pm That's Sarries done in Europe this season
They've forfeited their match in Pau due to a mass Covid outbreak.https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... inst-pauSaracens have been forced to forfeit Saturday’s European Challenge Cup fixture against Pau due to a significant Covid-19 outbreak, leaving Mark McCall’s side struggling to qualify from their pool.
The north London club has closed its training ground and all players and support staff have been isolated following the outbreak. With a number of close contacts also identified and factoring in injuries, Saracens, who lost last weekend’s European opener against Edinburgh, said they were unable to field a 23-man squad against Pau, who have been awarded a 28-0 victory.
With Edinburgh having beaten Saracens it looked like that gave them an advantage. Saracens forfeiting this may invigorate other challenges.
- Uncle fester
- Posts: 4192
- Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:42 pm
- Marylandolorian
- Posts: 1247
- Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:47 pm
- Location: Amerikanuak
Right, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:34 pmBit of a curious one as both teams have Covid cases and have been playing chicken all week. Looks like Monty won that one.
-
- Posts: 792
- Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:09 pm
Leinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said noMarylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:07 pmRight, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:34 pmBit of a curious one as both teams have Covid cases and have been playing chicken all week. Looks like Monty won that one.
- Uncle fester
- Posts: 4192
- Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:42 pm
Apparently still able to field and Munster fielded last weekend in a worse position. As a Munster fan, I think leinster getting shanked is hilarious but unless there's something we're not seeing, they are actually being shanked.Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:07 pmRight, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:34 pmBit of a curious one as both teams have Covid cases and have been playing chicken all week. Looks like Monty won that one.
- fishfoodie
- Posts: 8223
- Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:25 pm
If that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:12 pmLeinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said noMarylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:07 pmRight, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:34 pm
Bit of a curious one as both teams have Covid cases and have been playing chicken all week. Looks like Monty won that one.
Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?
Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?
- Marylandolorian
- Posts: 1247
- Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:47 pm
- Location: Amerikanuak
Looks like it won’t be necessary as the French gov might prohibit the T14 teams to travel to the Uk/ IRE.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:55 pmIf that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:12 pmLeinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said noMarylandolorian wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:07 pm
Right, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.
Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?
Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?
Clubs are asking for a special authorization.
- Marylandolorian
- Posts: 1247
- Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:47 pm
- Location: Amerikanuak
Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:40 amLooks like it won’t be necessary as the French gov might prohibit the T14 teams to travel to the Uk/ IRE this weekend.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:55 pmIf that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:12 pm
Leinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said no
Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?
Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?
Clubs are asking for a special authorization.
Finally found my way back here. I had lost the web address.
Haven't read the whole thread but wow... the French sides took a beating for the first round. Clermont is only a shadow of the former team and it is hard to see for me.
Is there a Top 14 thread still?
Haven't read the whole thread but wow... the French sides took a beating for the first round. Clermont is only a shadow of the former team and it is hard to see for me.
Is there a Top 14 thread still?
-
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:10 pm
Do you think the likes of Ulster, Munster and Connacht aren't stacked out with journeymen?Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:05 amYes, but a ton of journeyman players doesn't make your top level teams better, it just means you have a ton of journeymen players as well. At the real sharp end of the stick, there's no world in which having some 4th choice prem journeyman actively helps England rugby at an international level. Just like having me play in Div 13, doesn't help any team in Div 10 in terms of their quality, we're worlds apart.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:47 amThe above is from the premiership rules.Premiership rules
In the Premiership, the rule on foreign players has been amended to come into line with the regulations in European competitions. A maximum of two foreign players can now be in the matchday 23, at all periods during the season.
The level of English Qualified Players (EQP) in the Premiership has been fairly consistent since the inception of the league, and now stands at approximately 70%. This means on average there are approximately 200 English players playing every weekend in the Premiership.
200 players playing every weekend means an average of 15.3 players per team. However Rugby Pass calculated that for the 19/20 season 706 players were contracted to Premiership clubs, so 495 English players in the Premiership, or 38 pre team. Full squad sizes vary from 51 at Ldn Irish to 64 at Wasps. Many of those will be academy players or journeymen "squad players".
There are semi pros and some full times players in the Championship too.
The difference in pool sizes isn't about the amateur game, it's about the number of professional players
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/analysis ... r-2019-20/
Leinster not so much but there are still some there.
That would be the European competitions goosed then.Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:40 amLooks like it won’t be necessary as the French gov might prohibit the T14 teams to travel to the Uk/ IRE.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:55 pmIf that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:12 pm
Leinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said no
Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?
Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?
Clubs are asking for a special authorization.
- Uncle fester
- Posts: 4192
- Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:42 pm
It was always a bit of a long shot anyway.robmatic wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:18 amThat would be the European competitions goosed then.Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:40 amLooks like it won’t be necessary as the French gov might prohibit the T14 teams to travel to the Uk/ IRE.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:55 pm
If that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.
Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?
Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?
Clubs are asking for a special authorization.